Paul or the god Apollos: warning!! proof your faith is blind.. surprise ending!

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by justamomma
Warning!! Only those strong of faith should read.. and if you are, then you will surely prove me wrong to shut my mouth as Paul commands of you!!

They tell you to Shut your Mouth, not because you have found some major conspiracy in the Bible, but rather because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. An educated Christian, as opposed to someone obsessed with only trying to pick apart the Bible, understands a few things that are obviously lost on you. One thing that they understand is that first names were common back then, but last names were not. That is why we often hear people referred to by their common name and the city in which they lived (sometimes their job or position as well), for example: Paul of Tarsus, or Jesus of Nazareth.

With that in mind, an EDUCATED student of the Bible would check where each of these two people lived, and they would check reference material such as Strong’s Concordance:

G1216
Δημήτριος
Dēmētrios
day-may'-tree-os
From Δημήτηρ Dēmētēr (Ceres); Demetrius, the name of an Ephesian and of a Christian: - Demetrius.

Demetrius the Silversmith was from Ephesus…
Demetrius the Christian was from the Church of Corinth…

Guess that makes you wrong again, same as every time we have crossed paths on the topic of Religion. Maybe you should find another hobby that you are better at then Christian bashing?

I am not even going to bother to read beyond your OP since you’re so far off target already... (Rolls Eyes right back at'cha!!)

Again, I have a mind of own.. that is allowing another to interpret it for me. I see a name that is the same and I connect it within the same text.

That, what you have presented, is much the same as ONE verse being pulled out of a WHOLE PROPHETIC book and saying .. LOOK, JESUS IS GOD AND IS OUR HUMAN SACRIFICE!



By the way, educated christian is an oxymoron. so since, at this point it is my speculation against.. another well, not your speculation, but another man's


Prove your christian theories with the foundation.... you will not be able to do it. I promise you!

[edit on 6-3-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Christ!

Originally posted by justamomma

It is NOT based on the foundation it is claiming, the Tanakh... what is it based ON?

It is based on Jesus' direct experience with the truth.
It is based on what Jesus described the truth to be like.
It is based on what Jesus recommended be "followed", if anyone also wanted direct experience of the truth.
To experience the truth is to awaken from a lie.
The lie is "the world"...from the beginning.
It is a dream in the mind of the Son of God.
The world is a wandering mind...the "prodigal son".
A wandering mind is a dreaming mind...conceptualizing...imagining.
Such is the world.
Truth pre-exists and post-exists the world.
And while the world presents itself as truth to your eyes, the real truth remains invisible...unchanged.


Christ!

Nature of Reason, again, says that if Jesus was Jewish, his teachings would have been Jewish as well. He confirms this when He said to search the scriptures and there you could confirm this.

In Mattew 5: 17-19, he again confirms the Laws and the Testimony of the Tanakh. (and before you say that he fulfilled it for you. tell me once where he said he fulfilled it for mankind and where that idea would be supported in the Tanakh).

Anything attributed to Jesus that is not supported in the Tanakh cannot be attributed to him. If it can, then he was not Jewish.. thus, the whole premise of christianity would be shattered. If he is Jewish, than as well, he will comply with the teachings of the Tanakh.. thus, the whole premise of Christianity is still shattered.

Prove me wrong... don't just tell me I am wrong. ARguing the validity of the Tanakh does no good.. as I am saying that Christianity cannot be based on the Tanakh since it does not support Christianity. Thus, the premise for christianity is non existent. Christ is based on greek mythology.. not the Tanakh. Jesus was Jewish and did not believe in Christ concept.

He even says that men would come and call him Christ and they were deceivers.

reply to post by justamomma


I dont believe free will exists. We are all a collection of memories given to us by our perspective in reality. Those memories are the basis of our understandings which are the foundation of our choices. If you remove a memory you change a person.. if you add a memory you change a person. How can you condem a man? ever. He is operating on what he has seen in his perspective in reality. He is a creation of his memories. We are all blameless in this... all innocent. Many of us soon to be slain by the sword that comes from the mouths of the sons of god.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by justamomma
Again, I have a mind of own..

What is a “mind of Own?”
Is it similar to a “head of stone?”

Originally posted by justamomma
that is allowing another to interpret it for me.

This is not an interpretation, it is a fact that can easily be proven if you read the entire chapters rather then trying to pluck verses to fit your interpretations. That coupled with lack of research is why you keep failing at this endeavor. Here:

3Jo 1:1 The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.

John is writing to Gaius, also known as Caius:

G1050
Γάΐος
Gaios
gah'-ee-os
Of Latin origin; Gaius (that is, Caius), a Christian: - Gaius.

Who is the same “Caius of Corinth” that Paul mentions in Romans 16:23. He is discussing a Brother of the Church of Corinth, Diotrephes, and comparing him to Demetrius, another brother of the Church. He is advising Gaius/Caius to follow Demetrius and not Diotrephes. Obviously not the same person who lived in Ephesus and made Idols for a living.

Originally posted by justamomma
I see a name that is the same and I connect it within the same text.

Wow, so I guess there is only one guy named Mike, or David, or John in the world…
What you are saying is that this fits YOUR interpretation, so despite how wrong it is, that is what you are going to believe anyway… I believe they call that ignorance.

What do you make of this:

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

So here, we have Enoch born of the line of Cain…. Yet…

Gen 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Gen 5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
Gen 5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
Gen 5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
Gen 5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
Gen 5:16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:

Hey…
Here he is of the line of Seth?
How is that possible???
Maybe because they are two different people, just like Demetrius, eh?

Originally posted by justamomma
That, what you have presented, is much the same as ONE verse being pulled out of a WHOLE PROPHETIC book and saying .. LOOK, JESUS IS GOD AND IS OUR HUMAN SACRIFICE!

I am not the one pulling out verses from differing sections of the bible and trying to say they relate. I am in fact using Strong’s Concordance, which is a thoroughly researched compilation of the original language of the Bible, to show that you are wrong.

Originally posted by justamomma
By the way, educated christian is an oxymoron.

Not in the slightest, many of the most highly educated people throughout history have all been Christians as well.

Originally posted by justamomma
so since, at this point it is my speculation against.. another well, not your speculation, but another man's

Not speculation, but fact, sorry.

Originally posted by justamomma
Prove your christian theories with the foundation.... you will not be able to do it. I promise you!

Which part do you want proven exactly, it would take quite a lot of writing to prove the entire Bible to you.


[edit on 3/6/2009 by defcon5]

reply to post by defcon5


Funny how it is okay for Christianity to have gone through the Jewish Scriptures, picking apart and plucking out a verse here, one over there and claiming their hellenistic mythologies on our Scriptures.. so, since your faith is piggy backing our Scriptures, I have the right to pick through yours however I wish. After all, we are basically paying your rent to have a religion.

Show me ONE verse where Jesus is declared to be even the Son of God in the Tanakh. One verse declared by God, as He said He did with the prophecies, where Jesus (or heck.. even Christ) is declared as God. I'll back off on your faith that is based in our Scriptures. Otherwise, where is your faith based, because it is not on the Tanakh.

While you are at it... why don't you look up Hosea 11: 1 and Exodus 4: 22, 23 and post for me WITHOUT INTERPRETATIONS EXACTLY who is declared by God to be His firstborn son.

Show me... Prove your faith to be real.





[edit on 6-3-2009 by justamomma]

[edit on 6-3-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by justamomma

 

I dont believe free will exists. We are all a collection of memories given to us by our perspective in reality. Those memories are the basis of our understandings which are the foundation of our choices. If you remove a memory you change a person.. if you add a memory you change a person. How can you condem a man? ever. He is operating on what he has seen in his perspective in reality. He is a creation of his memories. We are all blameless in this... all innocent. Many of us soon to be slain by the sword that comes from the mouths of the sons of god.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by Wertdagf]

Sucks for you. I believe in free will.. this separates the thinkers and the innovators though from the followers. I also believe in collective memory. It is why I am taking back the Scriptures that belong to the Jewish and not to the Churches. Collective Memory does not bind me, but it gives me a connection to something that is real for me.

Honestly, I could care less at this point if anyone believes the Words in the Tanakh... better yet... I would just as well have everyone quit using it for their blind faiths, leave it as is on the door step from where they took it and go write their own foundation for their faiths.. it wouldn't change the effectiveness of them; that I promise.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by defcon5
Which part do you want proven exactly, it would take quite a lot of writing to prove the entire Bible to you.

Get to writing then. I can always come back. Don't just tell me you can prove the NT with the Tanakh.. actually do it. Else your faith is still blind and based on what you are told by other men.

Originally posted by defcon5
They tell you to Shut your Mouth, not because you have found some major conspiracy in the Bible, but rather because you obviously don't know what you're talking about

I am not even going to bother to read beyond your OP since you’re so far off target already... (Rolls Eyes right back at'cha!!)

Proving thus far with this that your faith is blind.. "I am not even going to bother reading beyond your OP..." Why wouldn't you.. it gets better.

By the way, they say "shut your mouth" because they have learned well from your leader, Paul.

Titus 1:10-16
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.



Know why that is a dangerous message? Because to stop a mouth you must either:

1. Be educated enough in the Scriptures to prove otherwise, and this will not happen with what I presented, in posts AFTER THE OP that you claim to not have read, because it is clear, to the point, and supported with God's Word.

so

2. Rebuke with dogmatism and playing the bully card, which is cowardly.

and eventually, if this blind faith keeps escalating as more and more Truth is revealed to show the blind faith false, as it will continue to happen since there are certain of those who have had enough of the ignorance being blamed on the Tanakh..

3. Physical force will be used to shut the mouths of those who declare the things that have been keeping the world in ignorance for far too long, as has been the case throughout the history of the world.



If you could prove Christianity true based on its supposed foundation, there would never be a need to say "shut your mouth" as you would be able to do it simply with the knowledge. This won't happen though because the knowledge of christianity's foundation IS NOT IN THE TANAKH.

[edit on 7-3-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Christ!
The truth can't be killed, ultimately.

Let's not forget that it cannot be stirred in ones direction either...

Fear of the moment where we ultimately cease to exist, forever, is one of the greatest enemies to a free mind. That fear is more than capable to bend the real truth into the convenient truth A.K.A. lie.

All those wonderful moments of our life will be lost in time no matter what we choose to believe, like tears in rain, enjoying them fully is the best choice we can ever make

Originally posted by 5thElement

Originally posted by Christ!
The truth can't be killed, ultimately.

Let's not forget that it cannot be stirred in ones direction either...

Fear of the moment where we ultimately cease to exist, forever, is one of the greatest enemies to a free mind. That fear is more than capable to bend the real truth into the convenient truth A.K.A. lie.

All those wonderful moments of our life will be lost in time no matter what we choose to believe, like tears in rain, enjoying them fully is the best choice we can ever make

Yes and yes.
So, yes, feel the feelings of "liFe" fully.
Whether enjoyable or not.
That way, the curiosity for them can be quenched.
That way, the circumstances and scenarios that seem to generate the feelings may not repeat over and over again.


Christ!

Originally posted by justamomma
Nature of Reason, again, says that if Jesus was Jewish, his teachings would have been Jewish as well. He confirms this when He said to search the scriptures and there you could confirm this.

"He" confirms this?
Did "he" even confirm the NT?
Where does Jesus confirm the NT?
"If" he was Jewish?
Who says he was Jewish?
You say it.
Perhaps Matthew says it.
But does that make Jesus Jewish?
What is a "Jew" anyway?
What, for that matter, is "Country Western" music?
To you a Jew may be one thing by blood.
To another, a Jew may be something of a belief system.
If by belief system, which Jewish belief system?
Jesus believed things no Jew had ever believed before.
Blood is nothing.
If there is a Jew, it must be Matthew.
Matthew gives his allegience to the Tanakh.
Matthew makes Jesus bow to the Tanakh.
That does not mean that Jesus bowed down to the Tanakh.
Jesus believed he was equal to GoD...in his truth...not his body.
Jesus did not believe in his body as any kind of truth, or any kind of true identity.
Why do you force ethnicity on one who denied even human fatherhood?
Where does Jesus say, "search the scriptures"?
Does Jesus really say it?
Does everything the NT says Jesus said what Jesus really said?
On what basis do you maintain that the NT, as a whole, is honest?
Why do you think Matthew is more honest than Paul?
Because he is more Jewish?


Christ!




[edit on 7-3-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by justamomma
In Mattew 5: 17-19, he again confirms the Laws and the Testimony of the Tanakh. (and before you say that he fulfilled it for you. tell me once where he said he fulfilled it for mankind and where that idea would be supported in the Tanakh).

The truth about Jesus is the same truth about everyone.
The lies about Jesus are the same lies about everyone.
In all things, Jesus is the same as all, and all are the same as Jesus.
The lie about Jesus is that he is a man.
The truth about Jesus is that he is equal to God.
The lie is he is flesh.
The truth is he is spirit.

Jesus fulfilled all "laws".
So, everyone has fulfilled all "laws".
Laws that can be broken were never laws.
Breaking laws that can be broken is to fulfill them.
Sin, in other words, is a lie.
Yes, sin manifests "the universe".
But then, the universe is a lie.
It is a belief.
Just because we believe in a lie does not mean we are guilty.
So, Jesus is sinless...in truth.
So, all humans are ultimately sinless...in truth.
Jesus is ultimately Christ...in truth.
So, all humans are ultimately Christ...in truth.

Christ!

Originally posted by justamomma
Anything attributed to Jesus that is not supported in the Tanakh cannot be attributed to him. If it can, then he was not Jewish.. thus, the whole premise of christianity would be shattered.

If he is Jewish, than as well, he will comply with the teachings of the Tanakh.. thus, the whole premise of Christianity is still shattered.

I don't mind that the whole premise of christianity is shattered.
It is not based on the premises Jesus based his faith upon.
So there is not really a correlation.
Jesus based his premises on a "rock", so-to-speak.
Christianity is based on "sand"...and will fall.
Your premises are also based on sand.
Jesus may have had a bar-mitvah.
So what?
Between the age of 13 and 33, anyone, even a Jew, can and will change his belief system.
Jesus utterly reversed his belief system...thinking opposite the world...and therefore opposite most Jews.
Jesus heeded only the laws of GoD.
The laws of God and the laws of the Tanakh are not the same.

Christ!

Originally posted by justamomma
Funny how it is okay for Christianity to have gone through the Jewish Scriptures, picking apart and plucking out a verse here, one over there and claiming their hellenistic mythologies on our Scriptures..

Where do you get this crap from, do you just make it up out of thin air, or have you watched “The Di Vince Code” (which is Fiction BTW) one to many times?

Christianity did not go through the Tanakh “Picking out pieces” it is all there:

The Torah:
1. Genesis [בראשית / Brei#]
2. Exodus [שמות / Shmot]
3. Leviticus [ויקרא / Vayikra]
4. Numbers [במדבר / Bamidbar]
5. Deuteronomy [דברים / D'varim]

Nevi’im:
6. Joshua [יהושע / Y'hoshua]
7. Judges [שופטים / Shophtim]
8. Samuel (I & II) [שמואל / Sh'muel]
9. Kings (I & II) [מלכים / M'lakhim]
10. Isaiah [ישעיה / Y'shayahu]
11. Jeremiah [ירמיה / Yir'mi'yahu]
12. Ezekiel [יחזקאל / Y'khezqel]
13. The Twelve Prophets [תרי עשר]
a. Hosea [הושע / Hoshea]
b. Joel [יואל / Yo'el]
c. Amos [עמוס / Amos]
d. Obadiah [עובדיה / Ovadyah]
e. Jonah [יונה / Yonah]
f. Micah [מיכה / Mikhah]
g. Nahum [נחום / Nakhum]
h. Habakkuk [חבקוק /Havakuk]
i. Zephaniah [צפניה / Ts'phanyah]
j. Haggai [חגי / Khagai]
k. Zechariah [זכריה / Z'kharyah]
l. Malachi [מלאכי / Mal'akhi]

Ketuvim:
14. Psalms [תהלים / Tehilim]
15. Proverbs [משלי / Mishlei]
16. Job [איוב / Iyov]
The "Five Megilot" or "Five Scrolls":
17. Song of Songs [שיר השירים / Shir Hashirim]
18. Ruth [רות / Rut]
19. Lamentations [איכה / Eikhah]
20. Ecclesiastes [קהלת / Kohelet]
21. Esther [אסתר / Esther]
The rest of the "Writings":
22. Daniel [דניאל / Dani'el]
23. Ezra-Nehemiah [עזרא ונחמיה / Ezra v'Nekhemia]
24. Chronicles (I & II) [דברי הימים / Divrei Hayamim]

My Christian Bible has every one of those books in it, so how did we pick and choose from the Tanakh, eh? Looks more like we put the whole thing right into the Old Testament, which…. Tada…. Is what we did…

The early Christian Church used the Septuagint, the oldest Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, as its religious text until at least the mid-fourth century. Until that time Greek was a major language of Roman Empire and the language of the Church (except Syrian Orthodoxy which used the Syriac Pe#ta and Ethiopian Orthodoxy which used the Geez). Also, the Church Fathers tended to accept Philo's account of the Septuagint's miraculous and inspired origin[citation needed], and Christ and the Apostles in the New Testament quoted extensively from the text.[4][5]
When Jerome undertook the revision of the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint in about 400 AD, he checked the Septuagint against the Hebrew text that was then available. He came to believe that the Hebrew text better testified to Christ than the Septuagint[6]. He broke with church tradition and translated most of the Old Testament of his Vulgate from Hebrew rather than Greek. His choice was severely criticized by Augustine, his contemporary, and others who regarded Jerome as a forger. But with the passage of time, acceptance of Jerome's version gradually increased until it displaced the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint.

he translations of the other 38 were used, however, and so the Vulgate is usually credited to have been the first translation of the Old Testament into Latin directly from the Hebrew Tanakh, rather than the Greek Septuagint.

Epic Fail, once again.

Originally posted by justamomma
so, since your faith is piggy backing our Scriptures, I have the right to pick through yours however I wish. After all, we are basically paying your rent to have a religion.

Actually it sounds more like the management has condemned the building but you refuse to leave it and move on.

Originally posted by justamomma
Show me ONE verse where Jesus is declared to be even the Son of God in the Tanakh. One verse declared by God, as He said He did with the prophecies, where Jesus (or heck.. even Christ) is declared as God. I'll back off on your faith that is based in our Scriptures. Otherwise, where is your faith based, because it is not on the Tanakh.

I just so happen to know one right off the top of my pointy little head, its one that the Roman Catholic Church does not like though due to its implications, so many Christians do not know what this verse actually means.

Dan 9:25-27 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So here, we have a roadmap telling the exact timeline of when Gods Messiah would be sent to fulfill the “Covenant of God with the Jewish People”. In fulfilling that Covenant he would remove the need for animal sacrifice, as he would make the Ultimate Sacrifice. It would end with the Destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army in 70Ad, ending the Age of the Jews and beginning the Age of the Church. Even the Glory Cloud of God fled the Jewish Temple in 70Ad and went to rest on the Mount of Olives over the Roman Army Encampment.

So lets see when this began, and when the Messiah would arrive according to your own criteria that this come from the Tanakh…

The Seventh year of Artaxerxes was 457 B.C. Now we have mentioned that 7 weeks or 7x7 = 49 years were allocated to the rebuilding of the wall and street. We find that the last act of restoration is recorded in Neh 13:23... and this occurred exactly 49 years after the work had been first begun by Ezra.

Messiah the Prince
Now 69 weeks = 69x7 = 483 years were to extend to Messiah the Prince. Dating from 457 B.C. the period ends in 27 A.D. (remember to skip year 0)
It is interesting to note the event that occurred at this time. The anointing of Jesus Christ.

"Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." Luke 3:21,22

Whoooops…
I guess those guys should have read their own Tanakh’s better as they seem to have missed the boat on this one. I always enjoyed this passage from the Gosple of Nicodemus, even though its Pseudopigraphal, it just so sums up that “Oh ****!” moment so well…

After these things Pilate entered into the temple of the Jews and gathered together all the chief of the priests, and the teachers (grammaticos) and scribes and doctors of the law, and went in with them into the holy place of the temple and commanded all the doors to be shut, and said unto them: We have heard that ye have in this temple a certain great Bible; wherefore I ask you that it be presented before us. And when that great Bible adorned with gold and precious jewels was brought by four ministers, Pilate said to them all: I adjure you by the God of your fathers which commanded you to build this temple in the place of his sanctuary, that ye hide not the truth from me. Ye know all the things that are written in this Bible; but tell me now if ye have found in the scriptures that this Jesus whom ye have crucified is the Son of God which should come for the salvation of mankind, and in what year of the times he must come. Declare unto me whether ye crucified him in ignorance or knowingly.

And Annas and Caiaphas when they were thus adjured commanded all the rest that were will them to go out of the temple; and they themselves shut all the doors of the temple and of the sanctuary, and said unto Pilate: Thou hast adjured us, O excellent judge, by the building of this temple to make manifest unto thee the truth and reason (or a true account). After that we had crucified Jesus, knowing not that he was the Son of God, but supposing that by some chance he did his wondrous works, we made a great assembly (synagogue) in this temple; and as we conferred one with another concerning the signs of the mighty works which Jesus had done, we found many witnesses of our own nation who said that they had seen Jesus alive after his passion, and that he was passed into the height of the heaven. Moreover, we saw two witnesses whom Jesus raised from the dead, who declared unto us many marvelous things which Jesus did among the dead, which things we have in writing in our hands.

Now our custom is that every year before our assembly we open this holy Bible and inquire the testimony of God. And we have found in the first book of the Seventy how that Michael the angel spake unto the third son of Adam the first man concerning the five thousand and five hundred years, wherein should come the most beloved Son of God, even Christ: and furthermore we have thought that peradventure this same was the God of Israel which said unto Moses: Make thee an ark of the covenant in length two cubits and a half, and in breadth one cubit and a half, and in height one cubit and a half. For by those five cubits and a half we have understood and known the fashion of the ark of the old covenant, for that in five thousand and a half thousand years Jesus Christ should come in the ark of his body: and we have found that he is the God of Israel, even the Son of God. For after his passion, we the chief of the priests, because we marvelled at the signs which came to pass on his account did open the Bible, and searched out all the generations unto the generation of Joseph, and Mary the mother of Christ, taking her to be the seed of David: and we found that from the day when God made the heaven and the earth and the first man, from that time unto the Flood are 2,212 years: and from the Flood unto the building of the tower 531 years: and from the building of the tower unto Abraham 606 years: and from Abraham unto the coming of the children of Israel out of Egypt 470 years: and from the going of the children of Israel out of Egypt unto the building of the temple 511 years: and from the building of the temple unto the destruction of the same temple 464 years: so far found we in the Bible of Esdras: and inquiring from the burning of the temple unto the coming of Christ and his birth we found it to be 636 years, which together were five thousand and five hundred years like as we found it written in the Bible that Michael the archangel declared before unto Seth the third son of Adam, that after five thousand and a half thousand years Christ the Son of God hath (? should) come. Hitherto have we told no man, lest there should be a schism in our synagogues; and now, O excellent judge, thou hast adjured us by this holy Bible of the testimonies of God, and we do declare it unto thee: and we also have adjured thee by thy life and health that thou declare not these words unto any man in Jerusalem.

Originally posted by justamomma
While you are at it... why don't you look up Hosea 11: 1 and Exodus 4: 22, 23 and post for me WITHOUT INTERPRETATIONS EXACTLY who is declared by God to be His firstborn son.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

That is a Metaphor. Metaphors are used all over the bible, you might have bumped into one or two thousand in your research… For example:

Hos 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

Here in the same book, which by the way is an entire story FULL of metaphors, we see Israel being equated to a Whore… Nice, eh?…

The messiah was a specific covenant between God and man where he promised to send his son to overcome sin and death through his sacrifice. It is not a entire Nation, it is one person.

[edit on 3/7/2009 by defcon5]

Originally posted by justamomma
Proving thus far with this that your faith is blind.. "I am not even going to bother reading beyond your OP..." Why wouldn't you.. it gets better.

How can it when the overall calculation of the Main Premise is:

Main Premise truth

You can tag all the other truth onto that equation after the fact, but ultimately it will leave you with the same basic equation.

Originally posted by justamomma
By the way, they say "shut your mouth" because they have learned well from your leader, Paul.

I would hardly call Paul our leader, though he might be more so with the Roman Catholic tradition. However, you see, I am not a Roman Catholic, so I take the writings of Paul as lesser in context then the writings of the Gospels. Paul’s writing are not Gospels, they are letters to Churches.

Originally posted by justamomma
Know why that is a dangerous message? Because to stop a mouth you must either:

1. Be educated enough in the Scriptures to prove otherwise, and this will not happen with what I presented, in posts AFTER THE OP that you claim to not have read, because it is clear, to the point, and supported with God's Word.

3. Physical force will be used to shut the mouths of those who declare the things that have been keeping the world in ignorance for far too long, as has been the case throughout the history of the world.

Yeah, that is why we saw Christians persecuted and martyred throughout history far more then the Jews ever were. It has been stated that if the Files of the Inquisition were ever opened that it would dwarf those of the Jewish Holocaust. The only Christian (and I use that term loosely) Organization that ever killed folks was the Roman Catholic Church, which is why many Protestant Churches consider them to be the Beast of Revelations.

Originally posted by justamomma
If you could prove Christianity true based on its supposed foundation, there would never be a need to say "shut your mouth" as you would be able to do it simply with the knowledge. This won't happen though because the knowledge of christianity's foundation IS NOT IN THE TANAKH.

You are mixing up Catholicism with Christianity, they are not the same thing regardless of what a Catholic may tell you. Catholicism is the Pagan Roman Empire canonized, intermingled with Scripture, and repackaged under the label of being a Christian Religion. Though I believe that many Catholics themselves are truly Christian, Rome has never been. They have wished to shut people up over the years, not because Christianity is wrong, but rather because they were twisting the interpretations of the Bible to suit their purpose to such an extent that they had to hide things. That is why it used to be a death penalty offence to own a Bible, and why bibles were only written in Latin for most of the last 2000 years. To this day, Rome does not wish their own congregations to read the Bible, because they are unqualified to interpret it correctly in accordance with all their Pagan rules and traditions.

Maybe that is where you are messing up, you are attacking Christianity for things that were actually done by Rome.

[edit on 3/7/2009 by defcon5]

reply to post by defcon5


Am still waiting that Christianity is based on the teachings of the Tanakh. You are avoiding my challenge and my questions.

Where is it declared in the tanakh that Jesus is the first born son of God? or even God himself?

And who is it in Hosea 11:1 and Exodus 4:22, 23 that God *does* declare as His firstborn son?

And calling it a metaphor is undermining what God said in the Tanakh and buying into the power of suggestion instead.

If it is a metaphor to represent Jesus, then Jesus needs to be saved...

Isaiah 45:

16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

These are direct questions that *you* should be able to answer yourself without quoting a source OUTSIDE the Bible.

The Tanakh can stand on its own because God declared the end from the beginning and made the promise that HIS COUNSEL WOULD STAND. Then Sealed it with the promise to never change!

Christianity needs the Tanakh to stand.. so, prove that it can stand on the Tanakh... not with outside or assumptions. God said He declared the end from the beginning. Am waiting.





[edit on 7-3-2009 by justamomma]

By the way.. yes, Israel was equated to being a whore, but let's not forget that whore is still the chosen of God and the one to whom salvation is promised.

Gentiles owe their salvation (not the mythological living forever fantasy) to Israel BECAUSE OF THEIR disobedience. Biting the hand that feeds you does not do anything to prove your case.

The fact that their sins ARE exposed says quite a bit don't you think. It is the mythological gods that hide what they deem sins. After all, the claim that Jesus was perfect and without sin is hiding the truth (though it is there.. just have to use your intellect to see clearly that he claimed otherwised). Virgin Mary.. god forbid that Nature would be allowed to form her sinless son.. since sex is, after all, a sin, right.

Mary Magdalene, the wife of Jesus (a FACT that I know based on reality and not a movie/book that I have never seen/read) was slandered as a whore because.. well, what? Marriage is a sin for the god Jesus I guess.

The Tanakh is practical and again, it is honest.. now show that Christianity is not a lie by using the FOUNDATION ON WHICH IT HAS BEEN SUCKING FROM; not someone else's interpretations. Show me you KNOW what it is you base your faith on.

*crickets*

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by justamomma
Proving thus far with this that your faith is blind.. "I am not even going to bother reading beyond your OP..." Why wouldn't you.. it gets better.

How can it when the overall calculation of the Main Premise is:

Main Premise truth

You can tag all the other truth onto that equation after the fact, but ultimately it will leave you with the same basic equation.

Yes, the premise on which the hellenstic views have based their claim is Truth.. agreed. Now prove that Christianity has the right to stake its claims on that Truth.

Here.. Psalm 78: 1-4 is a claim that Christians use as a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus (thus trying to validate their claim that he is the only son of God and/or GOD himself and should be worshiped, which is anti Tanakh) because he spoke in parables.. funny how they leave off the FIFTH VERSE THAT SHOWS YOU WHAT I STATE IS FACT!

1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
4 We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

The whole chapter is a fascinating read.. it is amazing in fact!

That last verse is declared already and is NOT speaking about Jesus, the man.

Jeremiah 31:

23Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.

24And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.


THE ESTABLISHING OF THE TESTIMONY TO REMAIN WITH THE JEWISH IN TACT!!!


25For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.

26Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.

27Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

THE ABOVE, ISRAEL AND A REMNANT OF JUDAH BEING SPREAD INTO THE WORLD GENE POOL FOR THEIR SIN.



28And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

29In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.


THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORD OF GOD SPOKEN OF; ALSO MORE CLEARLY SEEN IN ZECHARIAH.


30But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


THE FOUNDATIONS WILL BE STRAIGHTENED AGAIN!

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

THE COVENANT MADE ONLY WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL TO WRITE THE LAW ON THEIR HEARTS SO THAT EVEN DESPITE THE CORRUPTION, THEIR HEARTS WOULD SENSE THE TRUTH IN THE CORRUPTED WORD THAT WAS GOING OUT INTO THE WORLD.

See, Christianity HAD to leave off verse 5.. else one who was a child of God might stumble across the TRUTH!

[edit on 7-3-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by defcon5


Hey, instead of showing me a line of man from the Tanakh, how about taking this challenge.

Take the genealogy line in Matthew 1 and compare it with 2 Chronicles 3: 10-16.

Just to show us all that it IS the Truth you are really after, come back and list the four names that are missing from the Matthew account.



At this point, you are dogmatically claiming to be right and it seems that is all you care about doing.. not so much about finding the Truth.