Paul or the god Apollos: warning!! proof your faith is blind.. surprise ending!

Well in all actuality the whole bible is fabricated. Think about this:

We are the sons of God or else we would not be here. The devil went rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven. Why would God not destroy a rebel, why cast the devil where we reside. It is same thing as a child running to mommy because there is a spider, the mom captures the spider and releases it secretly in the child`s bedroom.

Follow God and Jesus`s teachings. Do not worship Jesus as the God because in the end he is not God, he is his son like us.

reply to post by Equinox99


Silly goose...There is much more to the story that we don't know.


What you need to know is available, the rest will have to wait until later.

Well, one must look at the NT. From whom's writtings show up more? Paul or Yeshua? Good solid thread, if I may use this sometime when debating a Christian or should I say more so "Paulian". I am definately not Paulian. And Yeshua never claimed to be God, no not even an iota.
When you read from the 'Coptic Appocylipse of Peter' Yeshua warns Peter that there will be those who cling to the name of a dead man thinking that they are holy but will error in their ways (not Yeshua's true teachings)... I have always said that such is the easy way out, where as Yeshua knows (though not impossible) that it is not easy to come to the Father. Not to mention Yeshua saying that the future people will do greater things than he...
Great OP!

[edit on 4-3-2009 by constantine70]

Sometimes thread titles are misleading, and after reading your opening post, I would have to conclude that I have found nothing which remotely challenges my faith. As for the surprise ending, all I discovered was a lengthy post which attempts to make certain association by name matching through scripture, mingled with personal interpretation in an attempt to, somehow, use that as concrete evidence, resulting in some challenging proof in regard to Paul and those associated with him. Perhaps to you this study appears monumental and eye-opening.

Here is what I am aware of via scripture:

If it were not for Paul, we would lack the revelation regarding :
The Mystery of the Gospel
The Mystery of Godliness
The Mystery of the Faith

Since Paul speaks in regard to visions and revelations of the Lord, having been caught up to the Third Heaven (Paradise) (II Cor 12:1-10) and how that by revelation Christ made known to Paul the mystery, which, from the beginning of the world had been hid (Eph 3:9), I hope you understand that your revelation regarding name associations and certain interpretation of events, at least with me, does not compare in regard to what Paul faithfully carried out as commissioned by Christ, all the way to his death by beheading.

If you are into name association, then read Acts 19:15 and understand the significance of what a demon knew, that today, people as you, fail to recognize, or, believe.

I also think you should take note of what Peter had to say in regard to Paul and his writings concerning those who twist the scriptures to their advantage, and even now, twist the names within scripture to their advantage. [ II Peter 3:16]

reply to post by jdposey


In the story of Acts, Paul changes his vision experience multiple times. Not in how it is presented or told, but in what actually happened.

The things you attribute to Paul is just blatantly false. It is to say that the father and holy spirit are incapable of teaching people the truth on their own. Jesus says otherwise.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Yet, if not for Paul these things would not be here? Are you thinking clearly?

It's all manipulation. It's all been changed from what it meant. The virgin birth, the purpose and death of Jesus, what it means to be forgiven, how to be forgiven and so forth, all been changed by the powers of this earth. They view the sacrifice of Jesus as their salvation the same way the lies and manipulations finds salvation by sacrificing the truth. And they do live because of that sacrifice, for the time being.

Jesus says that those who truly believe will be persecuted until the end, and yet this "new" religion, with it's "new" testament, which came after the time of Jesus, in his name, has done the persecuting. And yet how does this power come to be before the return of Christ? How does it get the power to war against another nations and persecute people who didn't believe? Will it be happy until it is anything less than the only world religion? Will it travel the seas for a single convert? One of the worlds biggest and most powerful religions, and yet we are told that most all will be decieved.

Something just doesn't add up. And when I look at these actions, these fruits, do I see the things Jesus talks about doing? No, I see the things he warns of. I see the errors he points out in the leaders of his time. And what is the basis for these things? What is the basis for this submission and support to authorities of this world? Paul. And he does it while praising Jesus. He pays lip service, but obviously his heart is far away.

Does Jesus talk about faith? Not really. He says things like - if you know me, then you also know the father. If you know the father, then you know me. He says things like - on that day you will know the father is in me, and I in you, and you in I. Does he tell the rich man to just believe and have faith in him? NO. But this is what Paul tells you.

Did Jesus ever submit to the authorities on earth? No never. It is the entire reason he was murdered to being with. Because he threatened the powers of the time. He just kept the commandments of the father and did not kill. The only authority that mattered is the fathers authority. Worry not about those who can kill the body, but the one who has power over the soul. But, in a book named after the earthly powers of the time, Paul tells us we must submit to authority on earth? That it is what Jesus did? Not even close to the truth. It's a complete manipulation.

Why do we have the just war theory? Because of people who fear for their own flesh. They try to save themselves, and they kill in the process, out of fear in the wrong place.

None of it resembles Jesus except for them using his name for their own agendas. There is only 1 teacher, 1 master - don't ever forget it, because it is not Paul, it is not the church. It is the same master and teacher Jesus himself followed, and to hook you up with that was the only thing Jesus ever wanted to do. He told his disciples not to make leaders of themselves.

It's all manipulation. It's all been changed from what it meant. The virgin birth, the purpose and death of Jesus, what it means to be forgiven, how to be forgiven and so forth, all been changed by the powers of this earth. They view the sacrifice of Jesus as their salvation the same way the lies and manipulations finds salvation by sacrificing the truth. And they do live because of that sacrifice, for the time being.

Thanks for the reply. Could you elaborate on the part of your statement I have hi-lighted above and share with me how these things have been changed or, how they were originally believed to be?

reply to post by Alcove


I'm still on my first page of responses, but I wanted to share real quickly that Diana is considered part of a Trinity, maiden, mother, crone, she is considered to be a the personification of the maiden. A goddess like Hecate for example, would be considered a Crone figure because of her age and her association with death. The example you gave of Diana, the nymph and woodland god is also valid.

Triple Goddess
Diana


So in a sense yes she is associated with a trinity, just not a Christian one...

back to reading! great post, thanks for sharing!

double post

[edit on 5-3-2009 by bandaidctrl]

That was an interesting read. But I am wondering how do you know that it is the same Demetrius? There are a few Simons in the NT there are also a few Johns a handful of Mary's and Yeshua was a common name as well as Joseph and Judas. Can you be Sure that it is the same Demetrius are you certain there was only one man named Demetrius? I am just wondering.

Originally posted by jdposey

It's all manipulation. It's all been changed from what it meant. The virgin birth, the purpose and death of Jesus, what it means to be forgiven, how to be forgiven and so forth, all been changed by the powers of this earth. They view the sacrifice of Jesus as their salvation the same way the lies and manipulations finds salvation by sacrificing the truth. And they do live because of that sacrifice, for the time being.

Thanks for the reply. Could you elaborate on the part of your statement I have hi-lighted above and share with me how these things have been changed or, how they were originally believed to be?

Virgin birth - Mary is not the virgin, the father(god) is the virgin. The flesh of Jesus is born of Mary and Joesph. His soul and spirit is born of the virgin(father), for which there is no equal too, and is pure etc. This is true of all people, not just Jesus. 2 births, not just 1. Jesus also denies his mother is his mother, because he is only born of the father, a virgin birth. He understands what he truly is, and that is why he only recognizes the true father and tells others the same. He says people must be "born again", or "born anew", and this is the recognition/experience of understanding who the true father is, and then you are born of spirit. This experience is described in John 14. 14:20 is the moment you know this truth. Which is followed by the holy spirit.

The purpose and death of Jesus - Those who view Jesus as a sacrifice see him as a sacrifice of truth so that they may live. John 3:16 says those who believe in him. But Jesus says those who believe will follow his path. We see manipulation in this, because Paul and his "Free gift" makes it out to be that all you have to do is believe that Jesus is god(false in itself) and have "faith" in that, and you are saved. No, not the case. That is a lie to make people think they can do whatever and be forgiven(I'll address below). Instead, it is the life and example of Jesus that you can find salvation in. He came to fulfill the laws, not change them. And by fulfilling the laws he brings understanding on how to follow them properly. So it is by following his example that you can fulfill the laws yourself and be saved.

So in this way, Paul is creating an idol of Jesus. Rather than embracing his way and what he actually taught, the idol is embraced and not his way. Thus why this thread is interesting.

Forgiveness - One can ask for forgiveness in speech all the time. But you do not truly ask for forgiveness until you realize you are wrong, and then you fix the problem. Once you fix the problem, you are automatically forgiven. Because it is no longer an issue. If you put your finger to a stove eye, it will burn you. If you leave it on the stove eye, it will continue to burn you. The moment you take it off, you are no longer burned. You might still feel the effects for awhile, but the source is gone. You reap what you sow, as soon as you change what you sow, you will change what you reap. You may reap what you previously sowed for a time, but you have changed what you reap overall, and soon what you reap will reflect that.

And so it is by the life of Jesus that you can find the correct way to live so that you will not sow bad things in sin, so that you will not reap those things. It is by following his example that you are saved. This is why he always make distinctions about those who do things in his name, and those who do what he says so many times.

Some try to say that some people can just "forgive" another person, and they quote John 20. But that is not really true in itself. If you read the verses carefully, you'll notice it is by the holy spirit that they are able to do this. What it means is that they knowing the truth can help the other person understand their errors and sin. The holy spirit is the one who teaches us(no bible needed for this btw). So, these are people who have removed the mote from their own eyes, and so they can see clearly to help remove it from the other persons eye. They can help that person see the errors in their ways so they can better walk the correct path and reap and sow the right things.

These are subtle differences, but at the same time very big and huge differences.

These things were most likely known back then. If you look at the gnostic history you find history of knowledge and understanding, along with the persecution Jesus spoke of(at the hands of the Church and organized religion). Anyone who didn't go along with the bible in it's current form were killed and persecuted as heretics(prophecy fulfilled by the church).



Here's a bit of history between the church and the gnostics. 3 video's in all, and very interesting. I do not consider myself to be part of the gnostic movement directly, and I don't read their texts and such, but I am gnostic myself and do find much agreement with them.

reply to post by badmedia


great post! I am gnostic in the aspect that I have seen truth in the gnostic gospels. (same as both the OT and NT) Mind you I do not follow any traditions, just live day to day... I do eat meat
I would encourage you to search for the 'coptic apocalypse of Peter' which does date 200+ CE but still younger than the formation of the catholic church. It also tells of the false church that is the catholic church. Yeshua has always said that the Father is inside of you, it is up to you if you hear, learn, and love with all of your self.
I think Ziggy Marley said it best when he sang "Love is my Religion"!!

The reason I did not bother answering these things is because you can see from the above that I gave you much to go on. I am not asking you to arrive at my conclusions or to to agree with me 100% I am ultimately hoping to encourage others to look and maybe share what *they* think. I do not care to be the ONLY one thinking here.

Originally posted by Alcove

Originally posted by justamomma It looks to people as though John, the Apostle, is endorsing a maker of idols who is apparently against Paul for speaking against them. *rolls eyes*
So, after Demetrius says things *rolls eyes* about Paul, the town is enraged and then confused.. This is how it works when one can talks about Paul, no? Confusion always ensues.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

I am clearly saying that I, II, III John are written by the same person who wrote all those letters attributed to Paul. My proof? The writing style.. particularly the 3 John. Another proof? The people mentioned.

Listen, here is the thing. I have a mind to think with and I am intending to not only use it, but to help others get to use it. We do not have to accept what we are told based on ... well.. faith. We can use our heads to think about these things to realize something is amiss in the FOUNDATIONS of christianity.

It is NOT based on the foundation it is claiming, the Tanakh... what is it based ON?

The next person mentioned is Gaius, one of Paul's companions getting taken hold of after *Demetrius* supposedly attacks Paul.[edited for space] And then John (rolls eyes), endorsing him along with Demetrius, the idol maker? Odd, no?

No, from the verses you cite it looks like Gaius was with Paul for a long time. As for Demetrius, presumably it was either a different person named Demetrius, or he became a Christian. Both make sense.

I am unsure what I cited, but if I am mistaken, then I am sure you will show. I am almost certain I was referring to:

3 John 1
1The elder,
To my dear friend Gaius, whom I love in the truth.

A quick research of the name Gaius is leads to some Ruling Class in Rome.

I am going to read through the rest of your post, as I am hoping to find something in there that might lead me to knowledge. I want to learn from you too... Please I have posted what I found and the references are made to go and search and draw conclusions.


my main point is this!!

CHRISTIANITY IS NOT BASED ON THE TANAKH FROM WHICH IT STAKES ITS CLAIM!!!


WHERE IS IT FROM ????

I hope I am being clear. Again, I will go back and finish reading through, but I ultimately had intended to post prophecies in the FOUNDATION that it stakes its claim on that clearly warn against it. It will show why no one saw it either.

Whether you believe what I am saying or not is not my concern. But it is a fact... CHRISTIANITY DOES NOT FULFILL THE PROPHECIES OF THE TANAKH.


Just trying to make it crystal clear my point.. research the details for yourself. I am giving those who want to know something to go off.

Originally posted by justamomma

It is NOT based on the foundation it is claiming, the Tanakh... what is it based ON?

It is based on Jesus' direct experience with the truth.
It is based on what Jesus described the truth to be like.
It is based on what Jesus recommended be "followed", if anyone also wanted direct experience of the truth.
To experience the truth is to awaken from a lie.
The lie is "the world"...from the beginning.
It is a dream in the mind of the Son of God.
The world is a wandering mind...the "prodigal son".
A wandering mind is a dreaming mind...conceptualizing...imagining.
Such is the world.
Truth pre-exists and post-exists the world.
And while the world presents itself as truth to your eyes, the real truth remains invisible...unchanged.


Christ!

Originally posted by justamomma
WHERE IS IT FROM ????
Whether you believe what I am saying or not is not my concern. But it is a fact... CHRISTIANITY DOES NOT FULFILL THE PROPHECIES OF THE TANAKH.

Christianity is like a novel "based on a true story".
The true part of the story is veritably lost.
That's ok.
The truth can't be killed, ultimately.
Whatever was the truthful basis of it, it was not the Tanakh.
On that point you are correct.
So, when post-Jesus simple folk try to tie his story to the Tanakh, they butcher both his story, and the stories of the Tanakh.
There is no association between Jesus and the Tanakh.
He did not get his 'authority' from the Tanakh.
Nor did he lend the Tanakh authority.
But many have worked overtime to make correlations.
The reason is simple.
The sleeping wish to keep sleeping.
Dreamers have made Jesus into another dream character.
Dream characters are for sleeping.
Jesus is awake now.
Awake, he is not "Jesus".
He is the "Son of God".
Note well: He is not visible.
Clue: He is spirit...like GoD.



Christ!





[edit on 5-3-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by justamomma
...Paul admitted in Phillippians 3: 4-5
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee.
...

Context is everything.

Philippians 3:1-15 (King James Version)


1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

He's saying (paraphrased) "Hey buddy, if you want to talk about the law, you can't do better than me, and I'M telling you that even I'M not good enough!".

Interesting that you left it out of context, and didn't include all of it? Tell me, Mr. Bible Scholar... who else did that in the bible?

Oh, and as for pointing out the Demetrius thing... thank you. I mean it is just UNTHINKABLE that two different people would ever have the same name. Thank God THAT has never happened in the entire history of the world.

If you are going to impugn Paul, you have to also impugn James, the brother of Jesus. I'm sure you know why, with your vast biblical studies.

Badmedia:

Thank you for your dissertation. As someone who is awakened from the "illusion" only a few years back...when I read the bible I interpret it the same way you describe. Jesus basically held a new age belief system. He spoke of connecting with a source (father and holy spirit), and made many references that people were deceived. The devil or satan seems to describe the flesh and false idols (consumerism), the beast and the mark of the beast (the status quo). Jesus even described what happens in the end times through a parable about reaping the harvest. The harvest is described as the new age.

I think the bible has been reworked through adding misleading books. Jesus's words were to practice LOVE! Spread love, seek and you will find, ask and it shall be shown, knock and the door shall be opened, ask that the wool be removed from your eyes and you shall see. Sounds like Jesus believed in 'the secret' Universal force that holds everything together and is influenced by our thoughts.

reply to post by ExPostFacto


The truth can not be changed, it can only be manipulated. Like a sword. You can not break the sword with leather, but you can cover the sword with leather to take away a bit of it's power. Of course, it's only a matter of time before people start to look whats inside and behind the leather, and then they will find the sword with all it's power, knowledge and understanding. Like the uncovering of a veil, a time or revelation where truth is revealed.

We see manipulation in this, because Paul and his "Free gift" makes it out to be that all you have to do is believe that Jesus is god(false in itself) and have "faith" in that, and you are saved.

Thanks for your response and giving me some understanding as to where you are coming from. When I look at Paul's message concerning the gift of salvation by grace [Eph 2:1-10] and comparing that to II Cor 5: 17-21
[ The Great Exchange] recognizing that it was God who was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, I don't see Paul's message being that which you have laid out: that all you have to do is believe that Jesus is God, have faith in that and you are saved.

Forgiveness - One can ask for forgiveness in speech all the time. But you do not truly ask for forgiveness until you realize you are wrong, and then you fix the problem. Once you fix the problem, you are automatically forgiven.

If Jesus spoke to Peter regarding the seventy times seven [Matthew 18: 21-35] and in the following parable [23-35] a servant who owed ten thousand talents [ wrongs] asked for patience regarding his ten thousand talent debt, the only question I have for you, regarding your statement, " Once you fix the problem, you are automatically forgiven ," God forbid, what if you die before you fix the problem?

I think the best example regarding salvation can be found within the parable of the Pharisee and Publican. [ Luke 18: 9-14] Everyone is always throwing around doctrine back and forth like a Wimbledon Tennis Match, but for me, it comes down to real life experience and what works or, what has the power to work within my own personal life.

There are a lot of people out there, like the Pharisee who, as the scripture reveals: "..stood and prayed thus with himself,..." Religiously looking good, but in prayer, like the Pharisee, their prayers aren't getting beyond themself. God's ear is shut. Then you have those like the publican, who have their backs to the wall, seeing no way out. On one hand, you have the Pharisee who feels all holy for what he does outwardly and then the Publican, who acknowledges his true nature and hopeless situation. Compare this publican's experience to Romans 7: 14-25. Compare the Publican's repeated blows to his chest from personal anguish, to Paul's statement of personal anguish, "O wretched man that I am!" Only when you come to this experience will the truth kick in and the power of the Holy Spirit take control of the situation. Many have yet to come to this point.

I will close with this, did Jesus' (Jeshua's) death upon the cross, and this gift of grace, save us so that we can continue onward (in sin) as we were? Absolutely not! When you read Phillipians 2: 12-13 and realize that God is placing the will as well as the ability within you, you come to realize that you are not the captain of your salvation. And as for the working out of your salvation, none of that is possible unless the Holy Spirit is within you, aiding in this work. And what is the result of this work? Fruits of righteousness, and it will be a life long process [Phillipians 1:6] and there will be failures, but as the scripture says regarding Christ, He ever liveth to make intercession for us. [Hebrews 7:25]

So, when people come at me with various doctrines and ideas on scripture, I say, show me the power. Unless it has the power over sin and the capability to transform and produce the fruit of righteousness freely flowing out of you, then it is nothing but vain, empty talk .

reply to post by jdposey


The grace of Jesus was in his life. He did what he did when he didn't have to. As he did not have sin, he did not have to be here on this earth. But he did what he did to show people the truth, to show people the correct way and so on. And so this is his grace IMO. You are saved by his grace, because you follow his example. As he says those who truly believe will follow the path.

As for if you die before you fix things. What of people who don't "accept Christ" as the church says? What is the difference, other than 1 is the narrow path, and the other is a much broader path. Do I think bad things are going to happen to them? No. But they will reap what they sow same as anyone else.