Beyond the Apocalypse; Surviving in the next Dark Age

Good stuff. I believe that the key will be that everyone in the community adopt an attitude of minimalism and safety. Alot of these procedures mentioned(smithing, gardening etc) though they sound trivial can cause injury that may halt progress. Keeping everyone healthy, strong and rested will be paramount. The commodity in abundance will be time, and it should be used gratuitously.(for thought and action)I think of all these things, medical knowledge and supply is most important. We can minimize on everything else, but not our babies and old folks. Natural remedies and medicine knowledge, EMT training. For me survival is embedded and even entertaining, but throw dependants in the mix, things get complicated and frightening.

reply to post by psyko45

I have read all 5 pages of this thread and you were the only one to mention the elderly. I am 58 years old but i can bake anything and cook anything from scrach as well as make up my own recipies with whatever is available. i can sew anything including make my own paterns and even make clothing without a patern.the only thing is i live alone and dont know many peopl. i feel that because of my age no one would include me in their group therfore ending up fending for myself and eventually dying alone. my skills are of no use to me and they are many. too bad. good luck.

One thing you may want to consider is Essene Bread (Also known as "Essence Bread"), it is an ancient bread recipe, here is what the original text says:

Essene Gospel of John
Let the angels of God prepare your bread. Moisten your wheat, that the angels of water may enter it. Then set it in the air, that the angel of air may embrace. it. And leave it from morning to evening beneath the sun, that the angel of sunshine may descend upon it. And the blessings of the three angels will soon make the germ of life to sprout in your wheat. Then crush your grain, and make thin wafers, as did your forefathers when they departed out of Egypt, the house of bondage. Put them back again beneath the sun from its appearing, and when it is risen to its highest in the heavens, turn them over on the other side that they may be embraced there also by the angel of sunshine, and leave them there until the sun sets. For the angels of water, and air and of sunshine fed and ripened the wheat in the field, and they likewisemust prepare also your bread. And the same sun which, with the fire of life, made the wheat to grow and ripen, must cook your bread with the same fire. For the fire of the sun gives life to the wheat, to the bread, and to the body. But the fire of death kills the wheat, the bread, and the body. And the living angels of the living God serve only living men. For God is the God of the living, and not the God of the dead.

I've never had this bread, but plan to at some point or another, it's full of vitamins, nutrients and enzymes.

Here's another more modern way of making Essene Bread:

Essene Bread

That's all I got for now folks.

-Lahara


[edit on 15-2-2009 by TheRandom1]

Has anybody considered canibalism revival?
It's has been thoroughly explored during dark age

Now, let's concern more about Planet X coming December 2009.
First proof: Nibiru cant cloak her infrared rays = Australia burning.

But anyways, what a bunker is only good against a red dwarf, beside this, what will you do when a quasar-like planet crush Earth? Pray?

this is one of the best things ive ever read. especially helpful for the incoming zombie invasion.

On the subject of leather working: Remember to save the brain matter from the animals you hunt. Enzymes in the brain when boiled with recently skinned leather allow the leather material to remain soft and pliable.

Comment withdrawn-
(the zombies have been mentioned)


Thanks for your posts, the thread and ATS!




[edit on 16-2-2009 by dodadoom]

Good topic, lots of ideas, but the one that i'm not seeing, what about links to places where you can get this stuff? lists of books that might be a good idea to pick up and read, places to pick up parts for ham radios and generators. just a thought

d

Thank you all for making this thread so popular. I believe that this is an important topic to consider. It was my intention to start a topic for debate on how to prepare for any contingency that may lead to having to not only survive situation X, but also thrive and rebuild. Survival is merely the first part of the equation but not the end result. The end results in the systematic rebuilding of society to a place similar to that we know and love today.

Surviving situation X is important but one has to prepare for the aftermath. One must not simply think of survival but the rest of their lives to contend with. This is something that the people after the fall of the Roman Empire had to consider and I think it is vital that we consider these contingencies in the likelihood that a new dark age happens upon us once again.

In my original post I suggested many questions for one to consider, I thought ahead and answered and gave you the answers to those questions through some research on the Internet. A tool such as the Internet in the event of global catastrophe or the collapse of civilization wont be readily available as such I thought I would give you the reader as many links as I could research in hopes that some of you who know history and know how times like we face today may end would be more prepared.

Some of you suggested and contend that specialists will be needed in the aftermath of the apocalypse. It is true it would be helpful for people to come along that know everything about a certain aspect of life that would make it easier on the whole. The problem is that specialists only work in their area of expertise and otherwise cannot contribute to the community as a whole. Yes an expert in an area of expertise would be beneficial, the problem is the loss of someone who only does one job in the community and the reliance on that person for that task would cause great harm to the community as a whole. It takes a village to raise a child and it takes a village to raise a civilization. One as a member of a post apocalyptic civilization must know more than one specialized skill.

Lets say Joe the Plumber knows how to maintain drainage systems. Great! Now does Joe know how to treat waste, dig a well, create a rudimentary pump, and create an aqueduct? Most importantly does Joe know how to teach an apprentice these skills? Limited knowledge of a specialized skill in a post apocalyptic world is a liability not an attribute. One must be multi faceted in order to be a benefit to the community.

A butcher is a handy skill set, a skilled butcher can also double as a field surgeon, having the knowledge and ability to amputate limbs in quick order as to minimize pain and trauma to the victim. In civil war times it was necessary to amputate a limb in less than 15 minutes in order to save a person’s life. A butcher could do this where a layperson could not. A butcher understands the relationship of joints to one another and can sever the affected limb in quick order without causing undue trauma to the patient. The patient in the care of a skilled butcher would not bleed out but be able to be saved due to the knowledge of the butcher.

Compartmentalization is in my opinion a detriment not an asset; limiting knowledge to one person within a collective community heightens the ability of that community to suffer when that specialist is lost. The problem with someone with a limited skill set versus the jack-of-all-trades is when the specialist is lost; the knowledge of that skill is lost with them. A jack-of-all-trades however knows enough about a variety of different areas to be effective in numerous fields, if a community has a lot of jacks-of-all-trades then that community benefits not only from the knowledge of those persons, but if a member of that community is lost then the loss is lessened because others in the community can pick up the slack.

Jacks of all trades, in opposition to the specialist has a unique skill, that skill is the ability to learn and adapt other skill sets to the requisite task at hand and thus enabling them to trade knowledge with each other, collaborate and equate a solution to a problem while not knowing fully well the entire solution singularly. Together, a set of jacks-of-all-trades can come up with solutions, learn required assets and skill sets of other trades and use that knowledge in concert towards the solution to future problems.


[edit on 2/16/2009 by whatukno]

reply to post by whatukno


First I'm a wilderness survival expert, I've felt like I would need that knowledge at some point. I can't log into my account for some rreason, but when I run out of supplies, I can hunt, I know most edible plants for the region I'm in (southeast united states), I can weild a sword better than most soldiers weild a gun though I prefer axes, I own machine equipment that reloads cartridges, I can make the equivilance of tylenol and nyquil, I know advanced first aid, I know how hydroponics work, I can recycle steel into weapons and I can make a generator with a water wheel, most of my survival knowledge comes off of google searches all reputable sites and military training, and I can make a shelter with fencing and fortified barriers such as walls, I cant however rebuild my civilization at least not single handidly so anybody that thinks they will live by stealing from others stay away from me and you'll be fine, I was sniper detail in the marines for 4 years and I served two years as a recon team leader I've been waiting for this "dark age" for a long time so the sooner the better.

reply to post by mikesingh


"Well, that may not happen and I feel that we've still got a few million years to sort this out. By then they'd be free energy and auto meal makers from molecules so you would have plenty of choice from steaks to hamburgers to pizzas at the press of a button, like in Star Trek! We would have conquered all disease and there would be no need for antibiotics and so on! And most would be living on other planets in the galaxy anyway!" - Mr.Singh

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I couldn't disagree with you more. Technology will be the downfall of us. Actually it already has shown to be our downfall and is thought to be the downfall of other civilizations in space.

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Check out this video by Dr.Michio Kaku (www.youtube.com...)

He explains the various stages of civilization, although I feel he arrogantly thinks that humans will be able to get around the (death through technology) predicament.

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For example, think of a circle drawn on a piece of paper. Everything you understand and know is on the inside of the circle, everything you are ignorant of is on the outside. Lets say you expand your knowledge and understanding, now the circle has to grow.. The area on the inside is larger but indirectly the circumference looking outwards has also increased. In other words, you have learned more; but with that knowledge comes the counter-intuitive realization that you're now more ignorant than when you started.

Bottom Line - As the area of your understanding increases in your "circle of knowledge", so does the circumference increase in your "circle of ignorance".

Now as an atheist you might say "so what", with our new knowledge we can just combat whatever detrimental effects come along with our newfound ignorance. And.. You're right, you can.. For a time. Yet for every step of technological progress forward there are 2 steps backward. Most people are unaware of this due to the fact that the world we lived in seemed infinite for a time and those 2 steps backward could be accommodated with more land, resources and more technology... Once we reached the barriers of our world the law of perpetual growth within a finite environment began to rear its ugly head. So now the 2 steps backward we would have remedied with expansion, turned into 2 steps inward. We are feeling the effects of this tightening spiral on an almost hour to hour basis. As we approach the singularity (the beginning of the outward spiral now returning to its home) we bring with it all the energy of our "outward/inward" journey. With that energy we destroy ourselves and then we get to start it all over again, forever slaves to the pendulum.


Peace



[edit on 16-2-2009 by TheRealDonPedros]

[edit on 16-2-2009 by TheRealDonPedros]

[edit on 16-2-2009 by TheRealDonPedros]

reply to post by dytch

There are places out there to help find great books to read.
This is a good site:
www.survivalblog.com...
There is a link to the forum where there is a thread about
the most usefull books to have.
I'll put the link here:
www.thementalmilitia.com...

I've heard the Foxfire books are real good.
I am reading "5 Acres and Independence" and its real good.
I have found many other ones at the local goodwill store
for 50cents apiece sometimes! (Or yard sales, flea markets, etc.)
Also, you can patronize your local library and see some you like before
you buy for keeps!
www.ebay.com...
www.amazon.com...
(Sorry if this is spam, I'm just trying to make it easy)

[edit on 16-2-2009 by dodadoom]

If the world comes to this, I'd rather die. I don't like the world now and I definitely won't like it if it comes to look like the situation described by the OP.

reply to post by whatukno


I agree to a certain extent what you are trying to say, but I have to disagree on the aspects of certain specialisations. There will always be a need for specialists. Take healthcare for example:-

Playing at being a Surgeon or other MD is not for the amateur, nor should be. The ethos of ''One should do no harm'' springs to mind here.

There have been many studies of post-situation X scenarios and of remote area scenarios and health wise, surgery is actually way down the list of health problems. Medical as opposed to surgical problems are generally the higher percentage of health problems. Now, you will certainly have to know what the hell you are doing to be able to diagnose and treat most medical problems ......... like I said, it is not for amateurs. Why do you think it takes so long for a doctor or nurse to qualify?

Again, I will reiterate ''A man needs to know their limitations''.

first of all i really don't believe in a complete collapse of the human kind. mostly because there are many more around today than in the times of the roman empire. also because back then they were mostly illiterate while today the literacy rate is much higher and many people have several skills and have read multiple books which they can use as general knowledge that they can pool together.

secondly i think it's not survival that we need to learn but rather we need to learn to focus on the community, take care of our people on a local level. sounds somewhat like obama's community organizing doesn't it? but that's what i think we need to do. learn to grow food locally, make energy locally, be more independent and waste less fuel. this should help in most local emergency situations because most people will be prepared to help themselves or others. this will also help with the economic times ahead when many more will be out of work and will need help. would you rather have them gang up against each other or help each other?

and finally, if society does collapse don't expect your skills to be too useful. those with the bigger guns will kill everybody, there will be tribe/gang wars pretty much like in mad max and only very few will actually be able to use any skills while most others will be used as slaves. that means most of us will not survive. life expectancy will again drop to 30-35 years and we'll take a few thousands of years to come back.

Originally posted by DarkSecret...today the literacy rate is much higher and many people have several skills and have read multiple books which they can use as general knowledge that they can pool together.
...
...we need to learn to focus on the community, take care of our people on a local level. sounds somewhat like obama's community organizing doesn't it? but that's what i think we need to do. learn to grow food locally, make energy locally, be more independent and waste less fuel. this should help in most local emergency situations because most people will be prepared to help themselves or others. this will also help with the economic times ahead when many more will be out of work and will need help. would you rather have them gang up against each other or help each other?

and finally, if society does collapse don't expect your skills to be too useful. those with the bigger guns will kill everybody, there will be tribe/gang wars pretty much like in mad max and only very few will actually be able to use any skills while most others will be used as slaves. that means most of us will not survive. life expectancy will again drop to 30-35 years and we'll take a few thousands of years to come back.

Unfortunately in an aftermath as described these books will be at a premium. All your lap-tops and flash-drives will be useless and most will have to revert to apprenticeships and the oral tradition. Any that cannot support a library of Alexandrian/Vatican proportions is likely to be thrown back to the aforementioned Dark Ages.

Your notion of community spirit is commendable however I feel that, with notable circumstantial exceptions, it would be completely unworkable. Well maybe it could work here if I had the right to shoot anyone I caught stealing my carrots. People are spoiled and yes, if the economic SHTF there are more likely to be roaming gangs OR martial law; both of which I care very little for. I have enough problems keeping a civil tongue in my head when I see people spitting in the streets or another CCTV camera over my head. If either of the two scenarios above kicked off I would also.

It has the potential to work in slightly smaller communities I wager. One where everyone knows everyone's specialty (I recall my mother was always receiving calls from the neighbours of our cul-de-sac as she was the most medically qualified). This should work both ways; if people are useful then barter along capitalistic lines will always be successful than one based on socialistic paradigms. As long as situation normal prevails however, this will never happen.

Your third statement is perhaps the most attainable goal. My only gripe is that 30-35 years of age would be a statistical average, not a realistic maximum life-span. It is this scenario that spurs me onward, making sure that if the worst does happen I will do my best to survive, and more importantly come out the other side.

[edit: Because I'm ill]

[edit on 17-2-2009 by Nirgal]

It really depends on where you live and the size of your community. I fear that cities and large urban areas would be a theoretical nightmare of death and destruction if Sit X were to occur and a global collapse of governments occurred.

Using Afghanistan as a model one can see the difficulty in continuation of control of a population once the governing body is removed. A power vacuum is left, warlords and provincial powers reign in areas, as others rot and decay.

Widespread global collapse of government would be similar. Small towns and communities would fare better than large cities. I think that one would find that large cities even though many more qualified people would be present would fare worse than a small community.

Eventually, warlords power and influence would expand as more and more people sought the comfort and stability that a governing power would provide. Thus new countries develop and new societies.

During the interim however, basic infrastructure would collapse, power, water, sewage, and other basics would decay and rot because the lack of manpower to keep these systems running. Remember that the people that operate these systems would themselves have to fight and defend themselves and procure for themselves stability. I doubt that a city employee would wish to return to work if he was not getting paid to do so, nor would they want to work when the safety and security of their family unit was jeopardized.

Originally posted by Nirgal
Unfortunately in an aftermath as described these books will be at a premium. All your lap-tops and flash-drives will be useless.

As the printed word will be so valuable, the penalties for the late return/loss of a book should be increased accordingly

For being disruptive in the library...'3 shhhhhh-es and out'

For every week of loan overdue...lose a finger/toe

Lost/Defaced book...death

Originally posted by Nirgal

Unfortunately in an aftermath as described these books will be at a premium. All your lap-tops and flash-drives will be useless and most will have to revert to apprenticeships and the oral tradition. Any that cannot support a library of Alexandrian/Vatican proportions is likely to be thrown back to the aforementioned Dark Ages.

i didn't mention flash drives. however i think there is a high chance to still keep low powered PDAs and netbooks (like the XO) working just fine for a few years or maybe decades. there will be plenty of alternators left from cars, other kind of electric generators and batteries. you can even make power from vinegar and some electrodes.

but if society falls apart and everybody leaves you do realize that we will have some major radiation and chemical leaks to deal with as well as floods from dams and other great things like that. not all the plants will shut off automatically and then there are the temporary storage units next to the nuclear reactors. these things are still so hot that they will boil all the water in a few days or weeks and then you get a meltdown. many places will be deadly for decades after that.