What Crashed in Roswell- July 7, 1947

Originally posted by TheMythLives
Look at Picture number 3 which is right below the first picture and now imagine finding this object on the ground. It looks like a UFO and all its debris thrown about, due to the thunderstorm and the high winds the night before. The mixture of heat from the lighteneing could have melted some of the aluminum parts to the washi, which is possible. The high winds could have sent many of the objects artillary or cargo away and around the main debris field.

Also the Washi was thought to be reinforced with a type of aluminum covering, to protect the paper and give it extra protection.

Despite their low success, the authorities were worried about the balloons anyway. There was the chance that they might get lucky. Much worse, the Americans had some knowledge that the Japanese had been working on biological weapons, most specifically at the infamous Unit 731 site at Pingfan in Manchuria, and a balloon carrying biowarfare agents could be a real threat.

Biological weapons? Interesting once again. Perhaps once the military and air force arrived they found a biological weapon. Its certainly possible and with the accounts of the "alien" bodies laying there. Perhaps the biological weapon was activated and killed some of the men around that area. (However, the accounts of teh alien bodies, is highly conflciting).

The United States not wanting to go back into a war that they have just ended and not certain who had sent the balloon could have simply dismissed the act, as a revenege plot, that did not happen. The United States simply could have talked to the Japanese and used some threats to get the message across and that could have ended the Japanese surprise attack.

The Russians could have also launched an attacked, but perhaps it was a real spy ballon sent by the Russians. Who were studying the Japanese tactics at the time. This could have made them believe that they could see what the US was doing and gather more data on the regions. Perhaps the cold war was planning to escalate, but do to a simple storm was cut short.
The US could have once again contacted the Russians and talked to them about there little spy balloon.

So what was it that really crashed there? A UFO, A Spy Balloon, A Japanese Fire Balloon, a Russian Spy Balloon? Personally, I am aiming at the Japanese Fire Balloon, it was the chance for them to get back at us, using a simple tool that could get into the US and was incredibily hard to detect. Along with some biological weapons to kill Americans, like we had killed in the Atomic Bomb.

What do you think ATS Community, is it possible, what are your thoughts?

Alright thanks for listening and first time thread in the Alien and UFO boards.

~TheMythLives

But how big is that object? there are no reference marks in the picture to give one an idea. If it is the size of, say, a microwave oven, I would not think it is a UFO. Do we have a way to know for sure how big it is? if not, how big do you think the instrumentation on a balloon might be? The size of a car? how much helium to lift, say, 300 pounds of metal? How about 30 pounds of metal?

Common sense tells me that a large balloon cannot support more than a few hundred pounds. I very much doubt one would find the payload of any balloon to ever look like a flying saucer because of how heavy a volkswagen sized chunk of metal would have to be.

-rrr

I like your theory but after what all ive read and the amount of witnesses of the roswell crash makes it hard to be just a bomb. it might have been a top secret Japanese weapon but the way the MPs were made to look for even bits of the debris for days makes it more possible that the craft was of an E.T origin.
I mean why would the govt want to get rid of every piece of a japanese ballon.
nice post though

[edit on 27-1-2009 by XxAelitaxX]

Roswell - RIP

It's hard enough to get facts from recent events. Just look at O'Hare and Stephenville? Why would anyone assume that events dating back decades would reveal anything. This is not a logical approach ... Guessing is not going to solve the mystery, we need FACTS!

That's just it though...there are tons of FACTS for the Roswell case, that simply don't add up to another credible, terrestrial explanation, and that is what is so intriguing. Facts like the military's actions after the incident, the military's own press release, the text of the Ramey memo, etc. Even if one completely ignored the corraborated witness testimony, then you'd still have plenty of FACTS to study on this case.

One poster mentioned Corso. In his book, Corso explicitly states that his Roswell information is second and third hand. While he does relate an instance of seeing stored bodies, he admits this may or may not have been related to Roswell. The only first hand Roswell link Corso has is that he was told the items were recovered from a crash in that area, and he acknowledges this. Corso's alleged experience is almost all related to the debris itself. Personally, he came off as sincere, and I really don't see any motivation for him to be dishonest...but it is an extraordinary story to swallow.

reply to post by Gazrok


Gazrok,

Thank you for responding in a polite way. That's rare on ATS these days. That's a fact ;-)

You are right about your statement about many FACTS regarding the Roswell incident. Unfortunately some "facts" were created as a distraction while others lead to the truth. The two have become indistinguishable over time.

All the best,

N

Compliments to the OP. You did bring a lot of interesting and knowledgeable
folks out of the woodwork. It's a good read for the most part. Way above
average for this topic area.

It appears that you have done some digging on the FUGO balloons. Have you found
the cause for concern about FUGO ? And why it was suppressed for so long ?
Hint - Japanese B encephalitis.

Who was the primary agency in charge of the FUGO crisis during the war and why ?
During peace time, why would this agency not be the same one tasked for a
similar situation you proposed for Roswell ?

And the mythology continues, self-supporting in every way, and even by those who have done their homework well.

"The two have become indistinguishable over time. " = Nichiren

In that case, the data (primarily testimony) lacks time correlation.
The simplest fix is to sort by pre and post 1978 testimony.

What happened in Roswell in 1947..

A key to the origins or to the general identity of what perhaps was recovered back then could exist in the info about the supposed engravings found in some of these mysterious debris. Maybe even no engravings were ever found but other puzzling things that anyone would be reluctant to disclose to public and were hints to the origins of whatever crashed in Roswell in 1947. Maybe it was a fabricated but intentional "leak" that would explain a lot.

What was to be explained please stay with me here.. IS NO MYSTERY TODAY!
People or beings from other civilizations are visiting us. Probably the same people and or beings that had also have been recorded in our ancient history.

This is not a big secret in some other countries that do have vast records of recorded ancient history, to talk about, for starters. India, China, ancient Greece, Persia, Japan, Egypt, lots of Asian countries, insert any ancient country here.

It is a big deal however to a country that is disconnected from the worldwide ancient history, and that country is the United States of America. It is the only country in the planet that would enterprise with profit out of this and get away with it from its population because the historical disconnection that exists with the rest of the world allows for that phenomenon to exist.

It is no big deal whatever was recovered in Roswell back in 1947 in United States of America. The big deal is US researching our place in the universe, in the brings of an space age era.

Yes. Chances are big we are going to get face to face with our ancient heroes or predators and what happens next scares us. Well not me, but I would bet it would scare the heck out of the Vatican for example, but that is their problem not ours.

Please continue this discussion.

Gazrok,

Thank you for responding in a polite way. That's rare on ATS these days. That's a fact ;-)

Sad to see that's your view, but you are most welcome. Of course, some topics (like the mideast for example) are bound to bring out the worst on both sides of the issue....so hopefully, your impression is coming from more hot-button topics than UFOs...

You are right about your statement about many FACTS regarding the Roswell incident. Unfortunately some "facts" were created as a distraction while others lead to the truth. The two have become indistinguishable over time.

Nightwing's suggestion is a good one, looking at pre-1978 info. Unfortunately though, in 1947, the press was far more accomodating to the requests of the military, so apart from the initial day's news stories, any following printed or official information was easy to suppress.

However, even after the weather balloon cover story was accepted by the press, there are period news stories that account for the flights to Ft. Worth, etc. (such as the pics posted above). Since there was nothing classified about the Mogul materials (which is the official story these days), and other missing Moguls were simply left in the desert to rot, why was THIS one so special as to require these flights? One could claim the need to quickly bury the disc story...but the amount of debris reported seems excessive for this requirement.

I'm sorry folks, I just have to respectfully disagree with the belief that has developed that something from an alien life form crashed at Roswell in 1947.

I have done considerable research into the subject and not just as a casual reader. The concept of contact from off earth was a fresh one back then and taken very seriously. Efforts woulds have been made to keep any findings ultra-top-secret, particularly in light of the Cold War situation.

Much of the strangeness for the excessive security measures and changes in official information can be attributed to the fact that no one knew what to do if this was for real.

Decades later the waters have been muddied with the blending of information, misinformation, disinformation, and many con-men and attention seekers entering the picture.

60 years is a long time to keep the biggest discovery in history a secret.
This happened in the US not the remote Himalayas. Scientists from a hundred disciplines would have been called in at some level to deal with the findings. No one credible has come forward in all that time.

I have seen a mass of circumstantial and inferred evidence with absolutely nothing convincing. For me the fact that something has been examined by so many people, purportedly in the military, and by so many others for so long with nothing substantial highly indicative.

I don't discount the possibility of alien intelligences or the American military's ability to maintain secrecy. But I feel the overwhelming weight of evidence or lack thereof indicates that Roswell is a cul-de-sac in the ongoing quest for information on alien life.


Mike F

Hey folks, well I was handed a piece of the "material" you talk of from the Roswell site. It had been given to him for examination as he at the time was a high ranking scientist with access to a huge lab. (ie> IBM) He discovered the material was in layers of elements that are here on earth only they were layered in a way we cannot duplicate. very thin and in differing directions. It looks like mylar only when you wad it up it regains its smooth shape no wrinkles. The scientist was Marcel Vogel who has since passed on. I knew him as a teacher and a researcher and trusted him completly. Now stick that into your theeory and see what happens. Be well
Thanks Gene
ps it had been a govt. agency that had given them the material and we have tried to duplicate it its just that our version was kinda like 3/4" plywood vrs aluminum foil we just are not techie enough that was more than a few yrs ago though

I'm sorry folks, I just have to respectfully disagree with the belief that has developed that something from an alien life form crashed at Roswell in 1947.

Then by all means, please let us know what your research has uncovered as to what DID crash there, and what was recovered....(and why it would still be classified decades after any terrestrial 1947 tech was obsolete)...

You state the mistakes were made due to it being an 'if it was real' recovery, but then how do you explain the inability to identify paper foil, neoprene balloons, and balsa wood (if you accept the official explanation)?

Hey folks, well I was handed a piece of the "material" you talk of from the Roswell site. It had been given to him for examination as he at the time was a high ranking scientist with access to a huge lab. (ie> IBM) He discovered the material was in layers of elements that are here on earth only they were layered in a way we cannot duplicate. very thin and in differing directions. It looks like mylar only when you wad it up it regains its smooth shape no wrinkles. The scientist was Marcel Vogel who has since passed on.

Too closely associated with Billy Meier there...and he also hawked healing crystals, etc. Not the most validated "scientist" to use as support. Sure, there was a time maybe, but some of those affiliations can really downplay credibility.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by Gazrok]

i remember i saw somewhere an enhancement of this photo you posted, OP



in which the text was barely legible and didn't talk about balloons at all. I can't find the source but I'm sure someone has seen it too.

"60 years is a long time to keep the biggest discovery in history a secret. " = mmiichael

I think that sums up the thoughtful point of your post. The logic seems sound to me. But thanks to the way the OP has brought up FUGO, I now see a slight counter argument to that. Let me try to show my thoughts, here.

1. Our greatest secret of the war would be the Atomic bomb ? Yet Mogul, which was in play prior to Roswell was an attempt to monitor an expected Soviet Atomic weapon, was it not ? This implies to me that we knew we had lost our greatest secret in less than two years. That can't be a good thing.

2. Lets assume the wildest and say that along comes Roswell, we now have the greatest secret of all time. The same security infrastructure we used with the bomb is going to be trusted to keep this secret ? That's crazy.

So far, so good. Almost sounds like a slam-dunk bit of deduction.

3. We now have the OP's FUGO example in here as well. That too, was a classified bit of wartime data. But the keepers of that secret could be argued to be a different type of infrastructure. I would suggest they performed more effectively than the bomb security infrastructure. Anybody know when the FUGO stuff became generally available to the public ?

"Nightwing's suggestion is a good one." = Gazrok

Thank you, but it is not really mine. It is a data analysis technique to deal with problems in time correlation glitches. Identify where the time glitch occurs, then fliter data before and after the glitch. Uh, Sort of...

Originally posted by nightwing
"60 years is a long time to keep the biggest discovery in history a secret. " = mmiichael

I think that sums up the thoughtful point of your post. The logic seems sound to me. But thanks to the way the OP has brought up FUGO, I now see a slight counter argument to that.

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. Yes, of course it's not impossible possible the US military has been sitting on alien artifacts under tight security for 60 years. They also may have caught an angel, a demon, a leprechaun.

I have a bit of a leg up on all this through a close friend who died in the 90s. He was a mathematician and one of the founders of advanced computer science. His knowledge in certain areas were in great demand by the Canadian and American military in the 60s. I won't name him, but if ever needed can provide career details, photographs of us together, etc.

He was born in 1929 and followed the whole UFO phenomenon with avid interest through his life. He and many of his generation consistently asked their superiors if there was any basis for the circulating stories of military knowledge of UFOs. On the air defense system level they worked on, if anyone did, these guys would have known.

To summarize what he could find - there was no contact with anything remotely alien by the US or Canadian military, but a few things that were undetermined for a time.

More to the point, he said was inconceivable something of this magnitude could have been kept quiet for any sustained length of time. Internal security was extremely lax, almost everyone had some inkling of the bigger projects, and there were endless numbers of ambitious types who would leap on an opportunity to advance their career using the potentially staggering knowledge.

The intelligence community may seem like a monolithic faceless secret empire, but believe me, it has it's share of clowns, schizos, alcoholics, egomaniacs, etc - as you find in any professional field.

No one likes an anticlimactic story or a downer ending. But so far even the most open-minded have only seen a constantly growing pile of possibilities, with nothing irrefutable emerging.


Mike F

Ok, i found what I was looking for, although i remember a clearer version I couldn't find the one I mentioned in my previous post, but here is a reconstruction of the memo seen in the photo.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

I know it's unclear but for the sake of argument i decided to post it anyway.

Unclear it may be, but the Ramey memo still mentions some things very clearly (assuming you accept the blowup as genuine, and so far, nobody has stepped forward to disprove it)..."disc", "victims of the wreck", etc. all certainly are intriguing to say the least...

More to the point, he said was inconceivable something of this magnitude could have been kept quiet for any sustained length of time. Internal security was extremely lax, almost everyone had some inkling of the bigger projects, and there were endless numbers of ambitious types who would leap on an opportunity to advance their career using the potentially staggering knowledge.

Even back then, the intelligence community was compartmentalized (in fact, one could speculate that the whole Sec. of Defense, Air Force, CIA creation in 1947 and the National Sec. Act was a direct response to the Roswell problem)...so yes, it's extremely conceivable that secrets can be kept for a long time. And just like with other projects, sure there are leaks, but those leaks always lack physical proof (due to security measures), even with secret planes, missiles, etc., until they are unveiled to the public. Until then, they exist right where the UFO recovery issue is today....rumored, but not substantiated. Sure, some may have inklings about other projects, but that's all they are.

Having grown up around the intelligence community, I can tell you even my father was pretty close-lipped on what he worked on, and he was strictly in the "terrestrial" craft development field. Often, these guys didn't even know everything about the very plane they worked on every day. For example, his specialty was autopilot systems, so he was told only what directly pertained to his area. He'd have NO knowledge of many other areas of the plane's systems and only some general knowledge of the plane itself...and that's exactly how you keep secrets...strict compartmentalization. That way, even if infiltrated, one only gets a very small piece of the pie. That's why the true disclosures are very limited in scope. If a guy comes forward stating he knows about many different projects, you can pretty much write him off then and there....

However, to get back to Roswell. You have 3 choices:

1. Accept the government's explanation of Mogul.
Problem: The facts don't match the witness testimony or the government's own actions, and assume that people failed to identify very common materials.

2. Assume something else of a terrestrial nature crashed.
Problem: Why would it be classified for so long? Why wouldn't the properties described by witnesses by made into more common tech shortly thereafter? Also, there is almost no evidence to support this other than sheer speculation.

In both of the above cases, you also have to assume many witnesses, including military officers, are lying or mistaken about their testimonies.

or 3. That a unique craft was recovered that did not originate from any terrestrial technology.

I think the initial concern in 1947 that there was something of tremendous magnitude happened at Roswell engendered an unusually extreme security response. It turned out to be prosic but possibly a political hot potato of it's day.

There was no motivation for retractions or explanations from any government agency. UFO investigators still zero in on the event as it is one of the very few where even the military was open to the possibility. But no one has come forward of any credibility, no substantiated evidence of a crashes spaceship or aliens.

Yes the various intelligence operations and the military are compartmentalized, but in all the years only Philip Corso and his ilk have offered any testimony. I think he and others go with the flow getting belated attention and maybe a book deal out of it. Money is a great motivator.

No one likes to have their parade rained on. But my own conclusion and that of people I know of who had access to a lot of information, is that as far as an alien encounter goes, Roswell is a no-show.


Mike F

Originally posted by mmiichael
But no one has come forward of any credibility.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I mentioned him before in this thread but to say he has no credibility is an understatement to say the least in my opinion. Granted he was not a first hand witness to any craft or bodies but he did fly over the crash site himself.

Brig. Gen. Arthur E. Exon
Gen. Exon has been the highest ranking military officer to come out and say directly that Roswell was the crash of a spacecraft and that alien bodies were recovered.

In 1947 Exon was a Lt.-Colonel stationed at Wright Field at the time of the Roswell crash and heard of the incident at that time. He said he also flew over the area of the crash some months later. He observed two distinct crash sites and gouges and tire tracks on the ground leading into the "pivotal areas."

From 1964-66 he was the Commanding Officer of Wright-Patterson AFB, where crash material was taken in 1947. He said other UFO-related field operations were staged at W-P during his tenure. Teams of men would fly in from Washington on an investigation. W-P would supply them with planes and crews for their operations.

His decorations include the Distinguished Service Cross, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal with 15 oak leaf clusters, Air Force Commendation Medal with oak leaf cluster, British Distinguished Flying Cross, Croix de Guerre (France), with palm and star.

We also have another Brig. General who made some interesting statements.

Brig. Gen. Thomas Jefferson Dubose
Gen. Dubose was the highest ranking Air Force officer with direct knowledge of the Roswell case who went on record about the weather balloon cover-up plus other important details about what was really happening in Gen. Roger Ramey's inner circle.

However, he was relegated to the role of a complete nonentity in the 1995 Air Force Roswell report, even though he was Gen. Ramey's Chief of Staff in July 1947 and had a great deal to say about what happened in recorded interviews and in his affidavit.

He stated that there was indeed a cover-up ordered from Washington (he said he personally took the phone call from Gen. McMullen) and that the weather balloon debris shown in the photos was not what was found at Roswell. It was instead a cover story designed to get the press off their backs and "put out the fire."

DECORATIONS AND MEDALS
American Defense Service Medal
American Campaign Medal
Legion of Merit
Asiastic-Pacific Campaign Medal
Army of Occupation Medal (Japan)
Bronze Star
World War II Victory Medal
Army of Occupation Medal (Germany)
National Defense Service Medal
European-African Middle Eastern Campaign Medal

Again not a first hand witness to craft and bodies but there is nothing to indicate to my knowledge that these men are lying. If you have evidence to the contrary please share as I would be very interested to see it.

Yes the various intelligence operations and the military are compartmentalized, but in all the years only Philip Corso and his ilk have offered any testimony. I think he and others go with the flow getting belated attention and maybe a book deal out of it. Money is a great motivator.

See the two men above for example. They didn't make a dollar and earned some nice ridicule for their trouble.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

www.af.mil...

roswellproof.homestead.com...

www.af.mil...



[edit on 29/1/09 by Fastwalker81]

Given the claims of Aliens Bodys and near indestructible materials, we can rule out any balloons..please..stop with the balloons..

LOL a GENERAL isn't good enough for the skeptics..what else is eh? You just cant fathom people with blinkers on.

Originally posted by Fastwalker81

Originally posted by mmiichael
But no one has come forward of any credibility.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I mentioned him before in this thread but to say he has no credibility is an understatement to say the least in my opinion. Granted he was not a first hand witness to any craft or bodies but he did fly over the crash site himself.

Brig. Gen. Arthur E. Exon
Gen. Exon has been the highest ranking military officer to come out and say directly that Roswell was the crash of a spacecraft and that alien bodies were recovered.

In 1947 Exon was a Lt.-Colonel stationed at Wright Field at the time of the Roswell crash and heard of the incident at that time. He said he also flew over the area of the crash some months later. He observed two distinct crash sites and gouges and tire tracks on the ground leading into the "pivotal areas."

From 1964-66 he was the Commanding Officer of Wright-Patterson AFB, where crash material was taken in 1947. He said other UFO-related field operations were staged at W-P during his tenure. Teams of men would fly in from Washington on an investigation. W-P would supply them with planes and crews for their operations.

His decorations include the Distinguished Service Cross, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal with 15 oak leaf clusters, Air Force Commendation Medal with oak leaf cluster, British Distinguished Flying Cross, Croix de Guerre (France), with palm and star.

We also have another Brig. General who made some interesting statements.

Brig. Gen. Thomas Jefferson Dubose
Gen. Dubose was the highest ranking Air Force officer with direct knowledge of the Roswell case who went on record about the weather balloon cover-up plus other important details about what was really happening in Gen. Roger Ramey's inner circle.

However, he was relegated to the role of a complete nonentity in the 1995 Air Force Roswell report, even though he was Gen. Ramey's Chief of Staff in July 1947 and had a great deal to say about what happened in recorded interviews and in his affidavit.

He stated that there was indeed a cover-up ordered from Washington (he said he personally took the phone call from Gen. McMullen) and that the weather balloon debris shown in the photos was not what was found at Roswell. It was instead a cover story designed to get the press off their backs and "put out the fire."

DECORATIONS AND MEDALS
American Defense Service Medal
American Campaign Medal
Legion of Merit
Asiastic-Pacific Campaign Medal
Army of Occupation Medal (Japan)
Bronze Star
World War II Victory Medal
Army of Occupation Medal (Germany)
National Defense Service Medal
European-African Middle Eastern Campaign Medal

Again not a first hand witness but there is nothing to indicate these men are lying. If you have evidence to the contrary please share as I would be very interested to see it.

Yes the various intelligence operations and the military are compartmentalized, but in all the years only Philip Corso and his ilk have offered any testimony. I think he and others go with the flow getting belated attention and maybe a book deal out of it. Money is a great motivator.

See the two men above for example. They didn't make a dollar and earned some nice ridicule for their trouble.

[edit on 29/1/09 by Fastwalker81]

Without wanting to sound like a snotty debunker, dropping the names of higher ranking officials works if one gof thm ave unqualified first hand testimony. Exon only repeated what he'd been told and had accepted such informal reports. Dubose when interviewed adamently denied Marcel's story of substituting material for the famous photograph but never talked about seeing anything alien.

Neither one ever stated they saw anything from an alien craft or had any unambiguous information to that effect.

Close but no cigar.

Tellingly the star witness Marcel didn't even remember what year it happened when first interviewed. After many interviews Marcel recalled more clearly things like flying the UFO wreckage himself to Carswll AFB. Very unusual for someone who was not a pilot.

Human nature being what it is, people interviewed by UFO investigators do their best to respond to leading questions. But still none of these respected members of the US military or anyone with any credibility has provide evidence or a first hand account of seeing an alien aircraft or aliens.

About a big a story as it gets. But out of the hundreds if not thousands of people who would have first hand knowledge after all this time, nary a peep.

It's possible the military managed to keep it a secret all these years and all those people's lips are sealed.

It doesn't seem plausible.


Mike F











Mike F