What Crashed in Roswell- July 7, 1947

Originally posted by The Truth Project
I thought it was crash test dummies dropped from a plane?

Yes this was the "explanation" for the bodies that were reported by witnesses. Of course they are lying through their teeth as the dummy tests (forgot the project name) were conducted in the 50's, long after the Roswell incident.

That is what the final explanation was in the 90's from the government wasn't it?

The final explanation is that it was not a weather balloon but a secret Mogul balloon, specifically Mogul Balloon train #4. This was another blatant lie because the flight records showed that Mogul train #4 never flew because of bad weather.

Why would it take 50 years to figure that out or tell us?

In my opinion they knew damn well what they had and since then have gone out of their way to fabricate a story that is so full of blatant errors and lies that I find it almost comical. It is beyond me that people buy the official story without question.

The governments sketchy coverup and excuses speak for itself.

Yes this is a good point in my opinion. They first claimed that they found a disc, then they suddenly found a weather balloon and years later they finally admitted they found a Mogul Balloon.

So what was so important about this crash that made the government lie on multiple occasions?

One way or the other I would not trust an agency that changes it's story three times and thus confirms that it has no problem at all with telling blatant lies.


[edit on 5/2/09 by Fastwalker81]

Originally posted by mmiichael
When I first followed this and it came out about the fake Majestic documentation and Stanton Friedman conceding he'd falsified information
it became apparent this was developing int a sub-industry for the supposedly impartial investigators.

Sorry it is not my intention to stray of topic but the Majestic documents have not been proven to be faked by a long shot. There is mounting evidence that the document are indeed authentic. Of course some documents that were recieved a decade later turned out to be faked, but this is perfectly normal, even expected, if the first ones were indeed genuine.

And secondly Stanton Friedman never conceded he falsified information that I know of. I would love to read up on it so if you have a link then please.

To tell you the truth I first thought the Majestic documents were faked because some loud mouths here on ATS claimed this. But after looking into it myself I found out that scientific analysis of the documents point to authenticy rather then hoax.

www.majesticdocuments.com...

Originally posted by Fastwalker81


the Majestic documents have not been proven to be faked by a long shot. There is mounting evidence that the document are indeed authentic. Of course some documents that were recieved a decade later turned out to be faked, but this is perfectly normal, even expected, if the first ones were indeed genuine.

And secondly Stanton Friedman never conceded he falsified information that I know of. I would love to read up on it so if you have a link then please.

To tell you the truth I first thought the Majestic documents were faked because some loud mouths here on ATS claimed this. But after looking into it myself I found out that scientific analysis of the documents point to authenticy rather then hoax.

And sorry again too, being the bearer of bad news. The only mounting evidence on Majestic is that the career investigators can still milk it.


www.roswellfiles.com/storytellers/Friedman.htm


Friedman is cannier than most doing his best to keep some internal consistency in his versions of events and weeding out the more outrageous claims.

That said he is forced to interface with the total fruitcakes in the field who just want to grab some attention and make a quick buck. William Moore was one of them.

As you'll read, Friedman got caught and confessed to lying about receiving the Majestic documents anonymously when the return address showed it was mailed by Moore's buddy.

These esteemed researchers are in fact underachiever racketeers preying on people's sense of wonder and gullibility.


Mike F

Originally posted by mmiichael
And sorry again too, being the bearer of bad news. The only mounting evidence on Majestic is that the career investigators can still milk it.

Not a problem at all the link you provided was entertaining at best.

The article you linked contains the same debunking through speculation that has been refuted time and time again. I am amazed you just accept it as gospel truth. The article does not offer one single shred of hard evidence that the documents are faked just as I expected.

As you'll read, Friedman got caught and confessed to lying about receiving the Majestic documents anonymously when the return address showed it was mailed by Moore's buddy.

Wrong! The article states the return address was Albuquerque, New Mexico. The author then speculates that it came from Richard Doty, which is just pure guessing on his part. Futhermore Friedman never recieved any documents so this is another lie I'm afraid.

I don't mean any disrespect but you said you were interested in hard data. The article you linked does not provide hard data and even presents lies to prove it's point. It states the documents were faked by Moore and Doty but this is a blatant lie as the documents were analysed scientifically and this showed that the ink and paper were dated before 1960! It was even found that the documents were typed on a 1940 model Underwood typewriter. Surely Moore and Doty had these things lying around from childhood.

Vannevar Bush's handwriting on some documents was confirmed to be his. Some documents have the original unionskin paper with official watermarks. Easy to fake of course.

The date format argument was debunked long ago as official FOIA documents from the time show the same dating formats as the Majestic documents. Another lie by the author.

This one is also hilarious:

Hillenkoetter's Rank: The document refers to "Admiral" Hillenkoetter, when his true rank was REAR Admiral. In casual speech or among civilians this error might occur, but a military man would never make such an error. It was the military that wrote the brief.

Half the MJ-12 panel consisted of civilians.

I can go on but I think I have proven my point about the article you linked.

So no offence but you will have to do better then that to convince me the documents are faked. Funny thing is the skeptics all claim the documents are obvious fakes yet not one of them can produce a fake that stands up to scientific analysis like the originals.

Robert Wood, PhD encourages people to submit documents for scientific analysis, even fake ones, but until this day the skeptics have not done this to my knowledge. I wonder why...

If you are truly interested in both sides of the story then I can advise the following reads regarding the authentication process of the documents.

www.majesticdocuments.com...

www.majesticdocuments.com...


[edit on 5/2/09 by Fastwalker81]

Originally posted by Fastwalker81
[

The article you linked contains the same debunking through speculation that has been refuted time and time again. I am amazed you just accept it as gospel truth. The article does not offer one single shred of hard evidence that the documents are faked just as I expected.

I don't mean any disrespect but you said you were interested in hard data. The article you linked does not provide hard data and even presents lies to prove it's point. It states the documents were faked by Moore and Doty but this is a blatant lie as the documents were analysed scientifically and this showed that the ink and paper were dated before 1960! It was even found that the documents were typed on a 1940 model Underwood typewriter. Surely Moore and Doty had these things lying around from childhood.

Vannevar Bush's handwriting on some documents was confirmed to be his. Some documents have the original unionskin paper with official watermarks. Easy to fake of course.

The date format argument was debunked long ago as official FOIA documents from the time show the same dating formats as the Majestic documents. Another lie by the author.

This one is also hilarious:

I can go on but I think I have proven my point about the article you linked.

So no offence but you will have to do better then that to convince me the documents are faked. Funny thing is the skeptics all claim the documents are obvious fakes yet not one of them can produce a fake that stands up to scientific analysis like the originals.

Robert Wood, PhD encourages people to submit documents for scientific analysis, even fake ones, but until this day the skeptics have not done this to my knowledge. I wonder why...

Thanks for the links provided. I don't claim that online debunking site is gospel, only linking to it as a handy reference.

Don't take my criticism as an attempt to win ego points or put down anyone serious about this. I haven't actively followed the story for a while but have friends including a couple journalists who do. One of them used to make his living repackaging fast buck Great Mysteries type of material online.

One conversation we had was comparing Roswell to the Turin Shroud controversy raging in the 80s. Those who thought it was the real goods sometimes gained ground when a scientist would verify the age and source with some test. But as time went on these became increasingly doubtful given the weight and volume of stronger evidence to the contrary. Though some claim the jury is still out on the authenticity of the artifact, it's generally concluded to be a medieval forgery, something not uncommon to that era.

We're talking about a matter vastly different with Roswell of course, but the pattern of battling experts is similar.

Having interfaced with people on both sides of the fence I have observed that the US military is not exactly the monolithic giant maintaining deep hidden secrets as portrayed and the investigators are not the noble seekers of The Real Truth as they like to present themselves.

A vast number of multi-discipline professionals work on and off on government projects. Despite stringent confidentiality agreements and security measures taken they invariably put together a bigger picture and talk openly to one another. People are for the most part are ... human.

Some of the people I've known with access to the grapevine have heard the stories and taken a look at the evidence. None of them were convinced there was a cover-up. They all thought something of this magnitude could never remain concealed for long.

But I expect it will be debated long after I'm gone and new testimony and evidence will keep surfacing.

People like mysteries and the payload on this one is huge.


Mike F

reply to post by mmiichael

Thanks for the reply. You have been very civil in your responses, which is not always the case on these boards and I applaud you for that.

I do respect your opinion and I hope you can respect mine. It's interesting for me to discuss these things with someone that has a different viewpoint.


[edit on 5/2/09 by Fastwalker81]

Did anyone here read the book the day after roswell? While it has a military spin on it as the ETs could be hostile , which I dont fully belive, it goes into great detail of the ETs remains and the shiping of the bodys , craft , clean up etc. Also how they reverse enginered some of the items they found from the crash.

I dont belive it was a japanese bomb ballon....way too many eyewitess reports of ET bodys , items that could not be cut ,what have you.

reply to post by Fastwalker81



You're unusually fair-minded in your willingness to listen to conflicting testimony. Also in short suppy around here.

I don't know how long you've been interested in Roswell and related subjects.

The common experience of people like myself who have followed phenomenology for decades is an initial fascination and willing acceptance that there are hidden secrets being kept from us by governments, the military, the multinational corporations. And of course there really are.

But a pattern starts to form when we get to the singular events like Roswell. The self-proclaimed experts tell us we've been lied to, but they know the truth. Pictures, testimony, documents are paraded revealing there is a cover-up.

The government agency is always found to be giving conflicting stories. Those who could supply answers are always dead, untraceable or withholding, The ones blabbing raise a lot of alarm bells about their creduity.

The big story is always on the verge of breaking, and the solid unquestionable evidence is always around the corner. It never quite happens as promised and the lines go silent for a while.

Then someone puts out a new book, video, website with new proof. It always never quite holds together and raises more questions than answers.

Skeptic are for the most part ordinary people who really wanted to believe there were hidden mysteries being kept from us waiting to be discovered.

But after scratching the surface and always always encountering a litany of fakes, forgeries, fraud, and phonies you can't help but see a pattern.

Historians argue about document and testimony in almost every field. But when push comes to shove they eventually concede on major points from the weight of evidence available.

So far on Roswell I see a lot of explanations as to how and why the Big Secret is being kept. Inevitable nitpicking on versions of events and documentation.

But still no alien craft, no aliens - just claims that they exist.


Mike F

I would like to thank Fastwalker and mmiicheal for showing us two differing sides of a discussion while still maintaining a healthy respect for each others opinions. Excellent thread and great work by you both!!

Originally posted by mmiichael
I don't know how long you've been interested in Roswell and related subjects.

Well I never really looked into the subject of UFO/ETs until a few years ago and always thought that life elsewhere was probable but that it wasn't visiting earth.

So a few years ago stumbled onto the Disclosure Project press conference video and that really caught my attention. After reading a lot of material my opinion changed. But I am obviously aware that this subject is full of charlatans and attention seekers so it's easy to get caught up in some major BS.

The common experience of people like myself who have followed phenomenology for decades is an initial fascination and willing acceptance that there are hidden secrets being kept from us by governments, the military, the multinational corporations. And of course there really are.

But a pattern starts to form when we get to the singular events like Roswell. The self-proclaimed experts tell us we've been lied to, but they know the truth. Pictures, testimony, documents are paraded revealing there is a cover-up.

The government agency is always found to be giving conflicting stories. Those who could supply answers are always dead, untraceable or withholding, The ones blabbing raise a lot of alarm bells about their creduity.

Interesting as I had a discussion with another member some time ago who was older then myself and became a cynic after being "disappointed" time and time again through the decades for the same reasons as you state above.

Skeptic are for the most part ordinary people who really wanted to believe there were hidden mysteries being kept from us waiting to be discovered.

But after scratching the surface and always always encountering a litany of fakes, forgeries, fraud, and phonies you can't help but see a pattern.

The true skeptics here are needed and welcomed because otherwise this place would be worse than Alice in Wonderland. The debunkers are a different story. And in my opinion every field has fakes and phonies but that doesn't make everything else untrue also.

So far on Roswell I see a lot of explanations as to how and why the Big Secret is being kept. Inevitable nitpicking on versions of events and documentation.

But still no alien craft, no aliens - just claims that they exist.

True but lets face it, if aliens crashed at Roswell you would want to cover it up.

The thing is if the Airforce came up with a plausible explanation backed up with evidence I would surely consider changing my opinion. But they seem unable to provide even a normal explanation and have been caught on numerous occasions lying through their teeth.

The testemonies of people that were there, both military and civilians, coupled with evidence like the Ramey memo and official government documents obtained through FOIA point in the direction of a totally different story then a simple Mogul crash and some test dummies thrown from a plane.




[edit on 5/2/09 by Fastwalker81]

I also kind of like the speculation, fueled by Philip Corso, Jr., that the "Roswell Incident" was a kind of strung-out series of events, not just a single crash on one day, that revolved around a failed time travel mission from a potential future timeline.

Since there was a huge risk in exposing this extra-temporal stuff to the current time, for fear of damaging this timeline as well as the future, it was buried as far as possible under multiple layers of need to know such that few people even know about it. Hiding it also kept it from allowing the future people from pinpointing where it was (to retrieve it before it "crashes").

Time ship that links consciousness with spacetime for instantaneous multi-dimensional travel, various bits of advanced technology, piloted by clones, damaged to such a degree that it couldn't be properly tracked. Secretly salvaged by the Army, with bits of the advanced technology being fed back into similar projects already in development.

I like that scenario.

Thanks for the follow up.

I've taken the liberty of providing edited down excepts of David E. Thomas's review of long-time UFO researcher Philip J. Klass's 1997 book "The Real Roswell Crashed Saucer Coverup"


www.csicop.org...



"... The question isn't "Did an alien spaceship crash at Roswell in 1947?" The question is, why do many prominent UFO authors persist in claiming the Roswell Incident is still UFOdom's best case? In case there were still doubts, Phil Klass's new book should help settle them. His case against the Roswell "alien" myth is devastating.

Klass has spent over thirty years investigating famous UFO incidents, hoping to find credible, scientific evidence of extraterrestrial visitors.

Through impartial research and meticulous documentation, Phil Klass has written the definitive book on the Roswell myth.

Klass starts off with contemporary accounts from 1947 -- cold, hard facts that are not subject to the whims of memory. He details the UFO "craze" that swept the country in the summer of 1947, the Army Air Force announcement of the capture of a "flying disk," and the explanation of the find as weather balloons and radar targets. Nowadays, UFO promoters maintain that the announcement of the "flying disk" came from high up the command -- Col. Blanchard himself. (And, of course, top brass wouldn't have been fooled by a "balloon.") But original reports indicate that the "disk" claim came from the intelligence office at the Roswell Army Air Force base -- namely, one man, Major Jesse A. Marcel.

After its correct identification as weather equipment, the Roswell event drew no attention for decades. Klass details how both leading UFO groups (NICAP and APRO) did not even mention Roswell in their lists of "most important UFO cases" submitted for the Condon Report in 1966.

Details of Marcel's earliest Roswell interviews, in February 1978, are provided by Klass. Marcel did not save any news clippings from this "historic" encounter; he couldn't even remember what year the incident took place.


Klass describes, and demolishes, the accounts of the long string of witnesses who waited decades before coming forward to claim their 15 minutes of fame: Grady Barnett, Glenn Dennis, Walter Haut, Gerald Anderson, Jim Ragsdale, Frank Kaufmann, Frankie Rowe, Col. Thomas Dubose, and more. Page 105 lists the wildly different estimates of the numbers of alien bodies (three living; three dead; four dead/one living; three dead; one living; and, one dead). The search for mortician Glenn Dennis's "missing nurse" (Naomi Marie Selff) is detailed, along with strong evidence that she never existed. Witness Anderson's diary copying and phone-record tampering severely damage his credibility.

Klass takes on all of the major pro-Roswell authors as well: Stanton Friedman, William Moore, Kevin Randle, Donald Schmitt, and others. He clearly documents how Friedman, Randle, and Schmitt all have changed the day rancher Brazel brought the debris into Roswell from Monday, July 7 (the actual day), to Sunday, July 6. They did so because that's the only way they could reconcile events with witness Dubose's testimony that the famous photographs of the debris in General Ramey's office were taken at least two days after the debris was supposedly flown from Roswell to Fort Worth. (In actuality, the pictures were taken the same afternoon as the flight). Original reports, and Brazel's comments that he came to Roswell to sell wool, clearly show that he did not go into town on the last day of a (then) rare three-day weekend. Klass also describes how author Donald Schmitt was caught faking his credentials.

The book also turns to UFO researcher Robert Todd's discovery of the connection of the debris to New York University experiments performed in support of secret project Mogul, and the further evidence for this explanation developed by physicist/balloonist Charles B. Moore, UFO author Karl Pflock, and by the United States Air Force. The General Accounting Office report was portrayed by New Mexico Congressman Steve Schiff as leaving unanswered questions regarding some missing message traffic. But, Klass points out that the bottom-line conclusion of the GAO report was completely missed by most of the media: there is not one shred of evidence in the archives of the federal government that lends any credence to the supposed alien crash at Roswell (or any other locale). He also relates how once pro-Roswell pilot Kent Jeffrey came to agree that the Roswell Incident was due entirely to misidentification of weather equipment.

A major theme of the book is the continuing coverup of the truth about Roswell -- not by the government, but by producers and authors of television shows, movies, and books. Klass tells how he has repeatedly tried to get TV producers to show formerly secret documents that prove the US did not have any physical evidence of alien visitors, even after Roswell. And Klass tells how, time and again, the truth has ended up on the cutting-room floor. "

reply to post by mmiichael


The late and not-greatly-mourned Philip Klass was a professional debunker, deaf to reason. On the many occasions when he was wheeled out to debate with knowledgeable researchers (such as Budd Hopkins, Stan Friedman and dozens of others) in TV debates, he always lost, and always looked ridiculous. His determination to ignore credible evidence and avoid difficult questions was legendary.

RIP.

sorry. but I refuse to believe that aliens "crash".

... at least not on accident.

If they have faster than light technology then they have achieved methods of completely augmenting the time-space continuum.. then they could just as easily gone back in time and adjusted whatever parameters were necessary to avoid the malfunction, or hostile attack that caused the crash.


given that aliens don't "crash" ... on accident..

one might want to delve a bit deeper into the HIGHLY alarming coincidences and parallels within the geographic coordinates, date, and measurements of the "crash"...

it may have been aliens intentionally positioning themselves for introduction to the human species formally in a way that seemed the most efficient.. that is to say.. the least agressive manner possible.. to appear to be "weak and defenseless after a bad crash"...

OR

a human staging of the event .. being precise in the exact location that mystically kabbalistically includes numerical information of the utmost importance...

or both..


have a read....


full rundown on the coordinates of the crash... and it's initial revealing of the 2012 unmber.. 2012 nautical miles = 33.33 longitude from 0 degrees.
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

ATS thread on the subject - www.abovetopsecret.com...

very interesting - the12thplanetjoint.tribe.net...

Google search - www.google.com...


also note that hiroshima is close to 33.33 / e133 degrees on the OTHER side of the world.

AND...

[size=10]

From and including: Monday, August 6, 1945 (HIROSHIMA) To, but not including : Monday, July 7, 1947 (ROSWELL) It is 700 days from the start date to the end date, but not including the end date Or 1 year, 11 months, 1 day excluding the end date

if either of those events WEREN'T INTENTIONALLY planned that way...
and not an alien going.. oopsies at the controlls... then call me kookoo.


enjoy.

-

Thanks for the reply. You have been very civil in your responses, which is not always the case on these boards and I applaud you for that.

I just officially applauded you both as an excellent example of the kind of debate this site was created to foster...

To answer a poster a few posts above, this thread contains some discussion about Corso's "The Day After Roswell", and I'd recommend reading through the thread for more discussion on it.

As to Klass...he was a classic case of a debunker who finds something it "could" be, and then beats you over the head with it until you say "uncle", even though there is no evidence tying the two things together.... That said, there has been some good debunking work done by him and his organization as well....but the mindset is still very close-minded.

I'd wager that most UFOlogists who make a career and living from this have likely falsified something in the course of their careers...(as people have in other careers....but in UFOlogy, credibility is everything). Friedman is one of those who always stands out as doing what he says however...

I can see that the politics of UFOs is pretty much locked in.

I'd forgotten details of the Philip Klass book which I must have read 10 years ago.

One of the telling points he noted was that the high level reports on UFOs in the 60s noting the most significant encounters never mentioned Roswell.

Klass was a professional investigator with a scientific background and immersed in the aviation field. He is labeled a debunker and anything he found can just be summarily dismissed by those who don't want to hear it.

He thought and I agree that Roswell is a late 70s creation using conflicting and unavailable information to weave a story of a government cover-up of a crashed alien craft that in fact never really took place.

The romance and fantasy of a hidden encounter with alien life appeals to the public more than the revelation that it's a perpetuated myth.

The whole thing starts taking on the characteristics of religious dogma.
People like Klass are considered heretics, and you might as well throw me in there too.

I believe there can be other intelligences in the universe, possibly even among us undetected. But I don't accept the contrivances that have created the scenario a crashed alien craft incident in Roswell in 1947.

On close examination it doesn't stands up to exposure in the sunlight.


Mike F

I am sorry but to think all these people are lieing just does not sit well with me , as with a lot of other ufo witnesses on other siteings. Surely we can't just dismiss eveyone of these eye witness accounts.


Roswell
www.youtube.com...

Roswell
www.youtube.com...

Roswell
www.youtube.com...

Astronaut Gordon Cooper
www.youtube.com...

UFO Spoted Gosford 1994
www.youtube.com...

UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defense Minister
www.youtube.com...

Former British Government Official says UFOs are Real
www.youtube.com...

Government Admits to Aliens Being Real
www.youtube.com...

The Extraterrestrial Truth - Aliens Are Real (Part 3)
www.youtube.com...

Could put many more here but you can see what I mean.







[edit on 6-2-2009 by Reevster]

One of the telling points he noted was that the high level reports on UFOs in the 60s noting the most significant encounters never mentioned Roswell.

This is largely due to the fact the story was successfully buried the day after it broke. It was only in the 70's that researchers learned of Jesse Marcel, and then uncovered other witnesses, and then looked back in time for other evidence.

Klass was a professional investigator with a scientific background and immersed in the aviation field. He is labeled a debunker and anything he found can just be summarily dismissed by those who don't want to hear it.

He actually contributed greatly to some cases, however, there are other instances where blind speculation were left as an explanation. For example, in the Hill case, he contends that the description of the Hills' alien is based on an episode of the Outer Limits. This assertion is despite the fact the Hills were unfamiliar with and didn't watch the show, and that the aliens on the show had MANY differences than the ones described by the Hills. He even went so far as to claim the Hills saw an imported Japanese sci-fi flick with a similar alien (when there is zero evidence of it, only the most devoted fans of such fare would have even known about it, and the Hills had no interest in that type of entertainment). He subsequently discards the testimony of one of the most reknowned psychologists of the time, that interviewed the Hills.

The Hill case is but one example of his blind debunking attempts, there are others, just as there are good examples of more solid research and successful debunking of hoaxers.

The whole thing starts taking on the characteristics of religious dogma.
People like Klass are considered heretics, and you might as well throw me in there too.

Not at all, it isn't as black and white as that. I mentioned in the previous post and this one, that Klass has done some good work in uncovering some cases, just as some UFOlogists have falsified information in pursuit of the dollar, and had it come back to bite them. (many examples of this in the Roswell Case alone)

He thought and I agree that Roswell is a late 70s creation using conflicting and unavailable information to weave a story of a government cover-up of a crashed alien craft that in fact never really took place.

This idea is popular, but ignores the Army's own story of a recovered disc, the Ramey memo, the facts about a recovery of 'something' and the debris of said something being flown to top foreign technology bases of the time to investigate. These flights are facts, regardless of which side you are on. Then of course, you'd have to assume all of the witnesses (including many decorated military officers) are either lying or simply mistaken when giving common descriptions of the debris.....(there are actually only a few witnesses as to the bodies...)


[edit on 6-2-2009 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok


[Klass] actually contributed greatly to some cases, however, there are other instances where blind speculation were left as an explanation. For example, in the Hill case, he contends that the description of the Hills' alien is based on an episode of the Outer Limits. This assertion is despite the fact the Hills were unfamiliar with and didn't watch the show, and that the aliens on the show had MANY differences than the ones described by the Hills. He even went so far as to claim the Hills saw an imported Japanese sci-fi flick with a similar alien (when there is zero evidence of it, only the most devoted fans of such fare would have even known about it, and the Hills had no interest in that type of entertainment). He subsequently discards the testimony of one of the most reknowned psychologists of the time, that interviewed the Hills.

The Hill case is but one example of his blind debunking attempts, there are others, just as there are good examples of more solid research and successful debunking of hoaxers.

Given the highly questionable nature of the Barney and Betty Hill alien encounters, I'm surprised you use it as a credible example.
For one thing, I think their claim of not watching a particular television show is not exactly hard evidence given their histories and reliability.

Klass was a class act, but far from the only person to seriously question a this and many other UFO claims. Check the later books of leading UFO hunter Jacques Valle sometime.

Examples of errors or misjudgments on a handful of the hundreds of points a researcher may err on or incorrectly infer does not dismiss whatever else they observe or their conclusions. Patterns of behaviour are admissable as evidence as much as documented data.

Klass said cases were bunk based on many technical points and the qualities of testimony.



This idea is popular, but ignores the Army's own story of a recovered disc, the Ramey memo, the facts about a recovery of 'something' and the debris of said something being flown to top foreign technology bases of the time to investigate. These flights are facts, regardless of which side you are on. Then of course, you'd have to assume all of the witnesses (including many decorated military officers) are either lying or simply mistaken when giving common descriptions of the debris.....(there are actually only a few witnesses as to the bodies...)





I never heard of "debris of said something being flown to top foreign technology bases of the time to investigate."

So are these "top foreign technology bases of the time" and their personnel keeping the secret too?

"Facts are facts"as you say. But some things that are inferred and considered to be facts aren't necessarily facts.

This type of conversation gets uncomfortable as I imagine an 80 year old Klass must have found when confronted with a group of dogged UFO experts.

When someone concludes based on the cumulation of data that
something said to have happened really did not, are they necessarily obliged to counter every single questionable point brought up? Are they under cross-examination for the crime of concluding that something did not happen?

The claim is that an otherworldly craft or crafts crashed at Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. Some say there were alien bodies in the debris. The further claim is that the US military recovered the alien debris and possible bodies, and have kept the artifacts and extrapolated information a secret for 62 years.

This is the biggest event in human history.

Why has no one come forward? Where is the convincing proof?


Mike F

Originally posted by Reevster
I am sorry but to think all these people are lieing just does not sit well with me , as with a lot of other ufo witnesses on other siteings. Surely we can't just dismiss eveyone of these eye witness accounts.


Roswell
www.youtube.com...

Roswell
www.youtube.com...

Roswell
www.youtube.com...

Astronaut Gordon Cooper
www.youtube.com...

UFO Spoted Gosford 1994
www.youtube.com...

UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defense Minister
www.youtube.com...

Former British Government Official says UFOs are Real
www.youtube.com...

Government Admits to Aliens Being Real
www.youtube.com...

The Extraterrestrial Truth - Aliens Are Real (Part 3)
www.youtube.com...

Could put many more here but you can see what I mean.







[edit on 6-2-2009 by Reevster]

These as well

UFO Files: Black Box UFO Secrets Revealed ( part 2 of 5 )
www.youtube.com...

UFO hovers over Chigaco O'Hare Airport - Eyewitness Account
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

UFO Overtakes Boeing 737, 1996
www.youtube.com...



[edit on 7-2-2009 by Reevster]