What Crashed in Roswell- July 7, 1947

I never really understood this subject; I don’t think anyone can honestly deny that the picture is a weather balloon of American/Japanese or whoever’s manufacture. If what crashed out there was let’s just say secret to avoid loosing focus, I doubt they would display it to the media. If it was a mogul balloon they probably would have removed the classified equipment first, in the cold light of day my gut says this was a casual white lie which got out of control.

But…

509th was the only Atomic bomb wing in the world, I guess the Area 51 of its day for security; probably required the best of the best to be assigned there. The base would be of extreme interest to practically anyone.

The reported crack down on witnesses was massively extreme, considering the balloon story was essentially accepted; and would die away.

The cold war was just starting, and paranoia was kicking into overload

The story won’t go away, but is slowly passing out of living memory.

I think something did happen, I don’t think the (White World) USAF knows because the records have been suppressed by the (Black World) USAF & others. I also think the secrets are suppressed for monetary reasons now, as the USA and its partners will reap untold riches when it’s released and they don’t want China, Japan or anyone else getting there first.

Maybe one day the truth will be known.

In regards to the thread aboujt the Roswell perhaps being a "Fire Bomb": I would offer the alternative theory; Perhaps the "baloon bomb" was released from Russian held Manchuria, using captured Jappanese devices, with the intention to cause confusion, gauge the possibility of wind-driven disbursement of radioactive or biological contamination or the success of the US monitering of its vital air space.
Thank you;

Re Roswell: At that time, our newspaper, the Johnstown Tribune (Pennsylvania) had a front page photo of the crash (that occurred the previous day) showing wreckage and about two or so state troopers or sheriffs and they were holding up a dead body vertically (the body about 4 feet in length) looking just like the typical pictures / drawings of supposed aliens that have been published.

I was very interested in that and searched the newspapers for follow-ups for some time and wondered why nothing more was mentioned until private UFO searchers brought up the matter years later.

Excellent research into the issue...
Kudos on the diligence...
However...

There are still some very essential problems with the Mogul balloon theory...or other balloon-based ideas

1. The ballon flight dates don't mesh with the debris recovery dates. This mesh ONLY occurs if you throw out Mac's original story and go with the story after spending a couple of days in military custody.

2. You'd have to accept that senior intelligence officers of the base somehow could not identify these rather terrestrial materials. Even tough paper and balsa wood should be easily identifiable to even the densest of witnesses.

3. One of the key properties of the material described by numerous witnesses was the "memory" metal effect. The balloon paper material does not fit this. Neither do foreign sources.

4. Many Mogul balloons were simply left out in the desert to rot, as they used rather off-the-shelf materials. To accept Mogul for Roswell, you'd have to be willing to believe that for some reason, this one incident was different, and required military cordons (documented), and hasty flights with the debris to the nation's top expert bases in foreign technology (also documented). Seems rather nuts for some balloon fragments. Would fit if a foreign technology though.

5. To believe Mogul at face value is to then believe that for SOME reason it required more secrecy (and a longer period of remaining highly classified) than even the atomic bomb. How long did it take Mogul to come to light as an explanation? Far longer than such a project should have been classified, so what else was it hiding? This would be the same issue if it were from a foreign power. It would have been declassified decades ago.

6. Then you have the testimony of top military officers, from Sergeants to Generals, stating that this was not of this earth. That's a pretty big endorsement.

7. However the biggest hole in the Fire Balloon theory is time. Either you'd have to accept such a balloon being aloft for over 2 years...or you'd have to accept that the Japanese military would be willing to risk nuclear bombardment (again) for the chance one of these balloons would get something. Either way, that's a huge leap of faith...

Of course, here's all the research, if you'd like to see what I'm basing these points on....

www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 26-1-2009 by Gazrok]

I really do like new and fresh theories.

However a balloon theory is... Well i dont think it was a balloon.
It's true that the Mogul Project was in place during that time.
But, you can only make a balloon in so many ways, and it is still a balloon.

The earliers versions of these balloons consisted of clusters of rubber meteorological balloons.
Now, everyone knows what rubber feels like when touching it. Right?

The more expensive version of the Mogul spy balloon consisted of plastic, polyethylene to be exact.

Even back in the 60's people knew what plastic were.
And there was nothing that was strange about it.

I do not believe a balloon, did what is said to have been found in roswell.
But then i could be wrong.
And no, i do not know what did it.

My favorite unsupported theory is that it was some kind of wild, off-the-books manned rocket test done by Von Braun and the Project Paperclip boys out of White Sands, using human (child?) corpses. Or maybe even living human "volunteers" (prisoners of war?). Something particularly distasteful and Nazi-like that the government doesn't want anybody to know about even to this day.

I imagine that would be something those guys would try, maybe even as part of a deal with Von Braun to get him to work for the U.S. His goal was always manned spaceflight to the Moon.

Nasty business, worth covering up.

Originally posted by Frank Warren
Mornin' EN,

excellent posts Frank

thank you for presenting this very logical viewpoint.

i noticed the Op hasn't even acknowleged or responded to any of your posts

[edit on 26-1-2009 by easynow]

Your post has got me laughing this morning--thanks I needed that!

Yes, I seem to have been overlooked . . . :>(.

Seriously, though this argument is old and has been beaten to death! Changing the origin of the "balloon" to Japan doesn't help the theory, it only shores up the opposition to it by adding another wild, implausible element.

Moreover, the notion that some sort of "biological agent" selectively shrunk and distorted military personnel, which Myth wants us to believe was responsible for people talking about the "little people" is even more outlandish then the Air Force's anthropomorphic dummy story which took place 5 years after the fact.

Cheers,
Frank

Glad i got you smiling Frank

your right this argument is old and this is the game that is played by people that can't accept the Alien explanation as i am sure your quite aware of.

the argument that these people could not identify a balloon is ridiculous and the idea that chemicals shrunk military personel is just plain silly.

i agree with everything you have said and i think because your posts are based in reality, the Op is ignoring them. just my .02

A load of rubbish, it has already been discussed to death by Stanton Friedman amongst others... sorry no cigar!! (excuse the pun)

Roswell - RIP

It's hard enough to get facts from recent events. Just look at O'Hare and Stephenville? Why would anyone assume that events dating back decades would reveal anything. This is not a logical approach ... Guessing is not going to solve the mystery, we need FACTS!

N

Okay...here's a fact.

One should read and take notice of the sealed statement of First Lieutenant Walter G. Haut. I have it before me but will not reproduce it line for line here because I dont have the families permission. This sealed Affidavit was to be revealed only after his death. It states the following...

1. In July 1947, Walter was stationed at Roswell Army Air Base serving as the Public Information Officer.

2. He was aware of a reported downed vehicle by midmorning on Monday July 7th. Walter was aware that major Jesse Marcel was sent to investigate.

3. Late afternoon the same day, Walter would learn of civilian reports of a second crash site just north of Roswell.

4. On July 8th Walter attended a regularly scheduled staff meeting in which the topic of disscussion was the debris field in Lincoln County. Another briefing was provided by Blanchard about the second crash site. Samples of the wreckage were passed around the table. Walter states that it was unlike any material he had ever seen in his life. He describes extrememly strong pieces of foil, and pieces with unusual markings along their length.

5. One of the main concerns disscussed was whether they should go public or not with the discovery. General Ramey proposed a plan that Walter believed to originate from the Pentaon. The plan was to divert attention from the more important second site by acknowledging the first location.

6. At 9:30 a.m. Col. Blanchard dictated a press release to Walter of having a flying disc in possession, and that Marcel was taking debris to another location. Walter was to deliver this info to radio stations KGFL, KSWS, and the papers Daily Records and Morning Dispatch. By the time the news hit the wires, Walters office was inundated with phone calls and messages. Col. Blanchard suggested than rather dealing with all that, Walter should go home and 'hide out'.

7. Before leaving the base, Col. Blanchard took Walter to Building 84, a B-29 hanger. Walter noticed personally the heavy gaurd both inside and out of the building. Walter was then permitted at a safe distance to observe the object recovered north of town. Walter states it was approx. 12 to 15 feet in length, not quite as wide, about 6 feet high and more of an egg shape. Its surface appeared metallic. No windows, portholes, wings, tail section or landing gear were visible.

8. Walter goes on to state that at a distance he observed bodies covered by a canvas tarpaulin. The heads of the bodies extended beyond the covering. Walter states the heads were larger then normal and that the contour of the canvas suggested bodies the size of ten year olds.

9. He was later informed of a temporary morgue set up to accommodate the recovered bodies. He was also informed that the craft was not hot (radioactive).

10. Major Marcel descibed to Walter upon his return to the base that he had taken debris to Gen. Rameys office, and after returning from a map room, he noticed that weather baloon and kite material were substituted for the wreckage. Walter noticed that Marcel was upset about the switch.

11. Walter would make at least one trip to the recovery sites during the military cleanup.

12. Walter was aware of two teams that would return the wreckage sites to search for any left over debris.

13. Walter states that he is convinced that what he saw was some type of craft and its crew from outer space. He was not paid or given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of his recollection.

Now what Walter states in his Affidavit is open for debate, but it is a fact that his Affidavit exists.

I don't know if this has already been said but one of the biggest proof is the paper/document that man is holding in the photos. There is a document film about it when they used technology to zoom in (+ recognize the letters) and see what is written in it. It says things about cover up that must be done!

In response to those who have pressed on the fact that there are high anking members of the military who confirm Roswell and the aliens story - why has Colonel Philip Corso not been brought into the discussion?

A highly decorated officer who tells us he saw the bodies and the wreckage, and explains how the US has implemented the newly discovered alien technologies?

Is it possible Colonel Corso has said things that aren't true to sell his book?

Is it possible others have provided disinformation?

An answer please.


Mike F

Considering that Japan was under military occupation and the Governor General was Douglas MacArthur, then I doubt very seriously that Japan sent any fire ballons this way. We dismantled anything that could be used as a weapon and considering that the Japanese had used balloons to try to attack the USA, then they would no doubt have been on the contraband list.

Also, any incendiary device would also have been confiscated and destroyed.

I reject the ballon argument for the Roswell crash on all counts. The people in the area were used to seeing giant silvery aircraft in the air and they were used to seeing balloons in the air and on the ground. The witnesses would have recognized a balloon immediately. Others have also pointed out that the electronic gear would have been labeled.

Something happened at Roswell and probably at Aztec too. Whatever the objects were, they were large metalic mechanical devices. Not big gas bags with no solid structure.

reply to post by mmiichael


It is my understanding that Corso wasnt at Roswell when all this went down, and if he saw an alien or debris of any kind, it was clearly after the fact. What I know about Corso is this...

He was a good man. He helped save countless Jewish lives during WW2. He co-wrote a somewhat rushed account about Roswell.

Personally I leave him out of my Roswell research because he simply wasnt there.

::Edited for spelling goodness::

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Tuned Agent]

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Tuned Agent]

reply to post by TheMythLives


While that is an interesting theory i do believe we demilitarized japan after World War II not to mention the people in charge in japan committed suicide after surrendering i do believe... the russian theory is kind of interesting though... truth is none of us really know... i personally still think it was a an alien spacecraft and the government planned on revealing it to the press but was overwhelmed once they got there... i just find the whole thing strange though... it could have been anything i just wish they would tell us the truth for once

Maybe the load was not a bomb , but the bodies of contaminated Japanese solders , used as carriers for a biological weapon.

It would account for the "small" bodies found at the scene.

As a mortician I can account for the fact that certain pathogens remain a much higher risk soon after death but then drop off quickly. Maybe the payload was inert by the time it dropped.

reply to post by mmiichael

Is it possible Colonel Corso has said things that aren't true to sell his book?

Of course anything is possible, but ask yourself..what much did Corso have to benefit from writing a controversial book when he was like 80 years old?.. and about 2 years later he passed away.

As a matter of fact mmiichael, I HAVE brought up this matter in many threads, but again.. Corso is not the only witness, in fact.. he's not even the main witness(s).

So let's just assume for a second that Corso was a fraud, okay? .. Are you suggesting that all the others like Marcel, Brazel, Ramey and co were all lying as well; just because one person may or may not have twisted the truth?

Originally posted by mmiichael


In response to those who have pressed on the fact that there are high ranking members of the military who confirm Roswell and the aliens story - why has Colonel Philip Corso not been brought into the discussion?

A highly decorated officer who tells us he saw the bodies and the wreckage, and explains how the US has implemented the newly discovered alien technologies?

Is it possible Colonel Corso has said things that aren't true to sell his book?

Is it possible others have provided disinformation?

An answer please.

Mike F

Most serious UFO researchers with decades of experience believe Corso to be at the very least an exaggerator and a fantasist, at worst a liar and a fraud. Many details of his story told in 'The Day After Roswell' do not check out.


You might like to take a look at:

video.google.com...

www.v-j-enterprises.com...

and especially:

www.intrudersfoundation.org...

and

www.intrudersfoundation.org...


Budd Hopkins met Corso one-on-one for many hours on more than one occasion, and showed me the interview transcripts as recently as December last. Budd became convinced Corso was a 'Walter Mitty' type fantasist.

There is at least one good ATS thread on Corso. Start with:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


It's possible that as an old man Corso re-invented his own life and career and ended up believing himself to be the savior of humanity. He was nothing of the kind, nor was he present at Roswell in 1947 (though didn't claim to be). As a Pentagon-based military officer in the 1960s he almost certainly knew that an alien 'flying disk' had been recovered in NM and was being back-engineered at Wright-Patterson, but everyone else he worked with was also aware of it as it was an 'open secret.'

Corso's claims of his own importance in the story were invented, exaggerated or embellished from commonly available sources. Those more technologically knowledgeable than I claim that much of the 'tech material' in his book is baloney.

Decide for yourself.

Originally posted by mmiichael
In response to those who have pressed on the fact that there are high anking members of the military who confirm Roswell and the aliens story - why has Colonel Philip Corso not been brought into the discussion?

Yes that was me who made the comments about the high ranking military officers and infact I did mention Corso, but not by name. I talked about two Brig. Generals (Exon and Dubose), a Colonel (Corso), and a Major (Marcel). Of course there are many others.

Is it possible Colonel Corso has said things that aren't true to sell his book?

Just like another poster pointed out everything is possible. The Brig. Generals I mentioned never made a dollar and were present at the time. Corso was not and his claims in his books do raise some doubts. See the post above mine for more info on Corso.

But even if Corso was a fraud then that doesn't automaticly mean the others were also in my opinion.

[edit on 27/1/09 by Fastwalker81]

Originally posted by bovarcher



It's possible that as an old man Corso re-invented his own life and career and ended up believing himself to be the savior of humanity. He was nothing of the kind, nor was he present at Roswell in 1947 (though didn't claim to be). As a Pentagon-based military officer in the 1960s he almost certainly knew that an alien 'flying disk' had been recovered in NM and was being back-engineered at Wright-Patterson, but everyone else he worked with was also aware of it as it was an 'open secret.'

Corso's claims of his own importance in the story were invented, exaggerated or embellished from commonly available sources. Those more technologically knowledgeable than I claim that much of the 'tech material' in his book is baloney.

Decide for yourself.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I went back and read some of your other comments and can see that you take a balanced analytical approach to the indiscriminate blending of information, misinformation, and disinformation on this forum.

4 AM here - so excuse the brevity.

The impassioned hope of connecting with something wonderfully superhuman has driven religions, the search for supernatural beings, angels, ghosts, etc. The UFO quest is a modern equivalent.

I've read through much material on the subject keeping an eye for self-deception and charlatanism.

That's what I mostly see.

Some genuinely serious people involved in the quest, but the cumulative total of indistinct photographs, unsubstantiated reports, questionable science, invariably add up to one thing - the aliens landing in their spaceship is a chimera.

I think it's possible there are other intelligent lifeforms - most likely in forms we wouldn't recognize as such or be able to communicate with.

I think a higher level of discrimination as far as evidence needs t be applied to the whole UFO phenomenon. More than a community or sub-culture it has become a sub-industry. This invites an extra level of motivation for the key participants.

I think Lt. Col. Corso is not so much a unique case as the most visible tip of the iceberg.


A tip of the hat

Mike F