What Crashed in Roswell- July 7, 1947

Originally posted by mmiichael
I'm very skeptical of all this Roswell stuff. 60+ years later and nothing solid has emerged.

Skeptical towards Roswell or the ET hypothesis in general ?

I'd be less inclined to believe Roswell was an alien UFO if I hadn't look at the rest of the subject. The declassified govt documents surrounding UFOs are damning of a cover up IMO. I would not be surprised to learn there exists tens of thousands of videos, photos, and documents concerning ET UFOs, classified at the above top secret level, held in the deepest vaults of the US intelligence community.

I just read Night Siege by Hynek, and they talk about this giant Boomerang shaped UFO that 12 security policemen witnessed over the dome of a nuclear reactor in NY State. The facility is littered with cameras, one that had to be slewed to capture the whole thing, it was that large, but officials denied there was any video and refused to answer any question on the grounds of security, but would admit the worked did see a UFO. The videotapes were likely confiscated by some national security law and studied by the CIA or other unknown govt agency.

That is why there is no hard core definitive proof. The average citizen trying to get a close up shot of a UFO has a better chance of getting hit by lightning. But the govt, which has hundreds of spy satellites in orbit, as well as an air force and navy, it's in the position to know what's what. The subject of UFOs is classified above top secret. What are they hiding ?

If you think the way the Roswell UFO was recovered and hidden sounds fantastic, read the book The Missing Times. It's got a case from 1988 (before "stealth" was declassified) in which an F-117 stealth fighter crashed in the desert in a semi-populated area. Civilian witnesses had machine guns pointed in their face and were forcibly evacuated from the area. You have to think they'd go to that extreme or more, if something as incredible as an alien ship came down.

Of all the theories I believe the one that makes the most sense is that from Reinhardt. Simply put the Britts sold the Russians Royals Royce engines for the Mig17 and thats what crashed. Thus the coverup being to hide the fact the Britts sold the technology. The CIA had recently been founded and it simply was one of their first operations to head to Roswell and strip the mig of all the patent numbers and such.

reply to post by TheMythLives


Oh boy, nice thread. The UFO is soo talked about, and your
theory get me like a surprise. I like surprises. And I like that
some people will always dig deeper and its NOT afraid of
the truth, no matter what is and the very fact that could be
not 'convenient' to any one or community (UFO in the case).

I found 'convenient' aswell the MAGI 12 scheme... on the shell
seems like a mix of egiptology and the crap of social control
of the ancients to some reinvent mystery club over the cold
war in the 80´s.... it was TXT in that time... Remember what
those DOS black screens? I remember being 19-22 and reading
those stories like a plot, with some good spooky moments if
you take those interviews seriously...

anyways



OT: Are you really a paranormal researcher? send me an u2u
about that... got some stuff for ya

[]´s
RP


[edit on 26-1-2009 by RobertPaulsim]

Its apparent that old and new theories debunking the Roswell Incident are being used in this thread as well as some very creative ideas. The incident was actually a combination of events. Maybe it was synchronicity.

It's all speculation though. In fact, the majority of us here weren't even born for at least another 20-30 years!


And, the incident wasn't only at Roswell. There were two actually-though proximal to one another

Read: "Crash at Corona" by S. Friedman
ref. Gerald Anderson's account on page. 90

Originally posted by TheMythLives
Not sure, but I do not fully trust him.

Apparently he was trusted to carry out the billion dollar space missions but that's besides the point.

Did you know of the testemony of Brig. Gen. Arthur E. Exon?

Gen. Exon has been the highest ranking military officer to come out and say directly that Roswell was the crash of a spacecraft and that alien bodies were recovered.

In 1947 Exon was a Lt.-Colonel stationed at Wright Field at the time of the Roswell crash and heard of the incident at that time. He said he also flew over the area of the crash some months later. He observed two distinct crash sites and gouges and tire tracks on the ground leading into the "pivotal areas."

From 1964-66 he was the Commanding Officer of Wright-Patterson AFB, where crash material was taken in 1947. He said other UFO-related field operations were staged at W-P during his tenure. Teams of men would fly in from Washington on an investigation. W-P would supply them with planes and crews for their operations.

Exon was another inconvenient, high-ranking witness, like Brig. Gen. Thomas Dubose, that Air Force debunkers wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Even though his statements on Roswell had been published before the Air Force began its investigation in 1994, Exon was never interviewed and completely ignored by AF investigators.

His testemony:

"...They knew they had something new in their hands. The metal and material was unknown to anyone I talked to. Whatever they found, I never heard what the results were. A couple of guys thought it might be Russian, but the overall consensus was that the pieces were from space. Everyone from the White House on down knew that what we had found was not of this world within 24 hours of our finding it. ...Roswell was the recovery of a craft from space."

roswellproof.homestead.com...

It was obviously ET given the unique properties of the material. If it was Japanese or Russian and the war was over (Russia was an ally but the Cold War was in its genesis stages) then there would be no reason for such a blanket of secrecy....especially this many years after the fact.
And that was the separate "debris field"....what about the recovered disc?

reply to post by Fastwalker81


Look at all the people that trusted Bernie Madoff, he was well known on the stock market and then what did he do? Pulled off an amazing set of lies and mad Billions of dollars. It does not matter how decorated you are, lies can always get the best of anyone.

reply to post by Schaden


Yes, your reference might be to the stealth fighter that crashed at night over a campground in the Kern Canyon. Campers were quickly evicted from the area by military, and military closed the area while combing for and retrieving any trace of the debris, as the material used on the stealth was classified. Any piece, no matter how small, was supposed to be retrieved.

I don't know if it's still done this way, but after a military craft crash the military, after retrieving whatever they needed from the craft, would bulldoze a trench big enough to hold the debris and dump the wreckage in and cover it. The stealth fighter debris OTOH was secret and all had to be retrieved.

The National Security Act of 1947 (Pub. L. No. 235, 80 Cong., 61 Stat. 496) was signed by United States President Harry S. Truman on July 26, 1947, and realigned and reorganized the U.S. Armed Forces, foreign policy, and Intelligence Community apparatus in the aftermath of World War II. The majority of the provisions of the Act took effect on September 18, 1947, the day after the Senate confirmed James Forrestal as the first Secretary of Defense.

link

This act may have been the solution to the "surprise" attack. Maybe they just didn't want to cause ill feeling or war, especially after WWII (Japanese). It makes sense and once again it fits the time frame, am I right?

Originally posted by TheMythLives
Look at all the people that trusted Bernie Madoff, he was well known on the stock market and then what did he do? Pulled off an amazing set of lies and mad Billions of dollars. It does not matter how decorated you are, lies can always get the best of anyone.

And what did these military men gain by speaking out? Yes, nothing except lots of ridicule and outright accusations of dishonesty like you seem to be engaging in.

Mind you General Exon was not the only witness to speak out by a long shot. We have atleast two Brig. Generals, a Colonel and a Major all saying the same thing. There must have been alot of lying for no gain going around in the US military at the time.

Of course you could be right and all these men could be lying. May I ask if you have any evidence that made you reach such a conclusion? If you do I would be very interested in it.

reply to post by Fastwalker81


Marcel had a history of embellishment and exaggeration, such as claiming to have been a pilot and having received five Air Medals for shooting down enemy planes, claims which were found to be false, and his evolving Roswell story was another instance of this. But what did they have to gain besides ridicule? Fame in the public eyes, look the Roswell case became so famous that everyone involved was known. Thats what they had to gain, Fame and they obviously achieved it.

link

Originally posted by TheMythLives
Marcel had a history of embellishment and exaggeration, such as claiming to have been a pilot and having received five Air Medals for shooting down enemy planes, claims which were found to be false, and his evolving Roswell story was another instance of this. But what did they have to gain besides ridicule? Fame in the public eyes, look the Roswell case became so famous that everyone involved was known. Thats what they had to gain, Fame and they obviously achieved it.

Sorry to say this but you are now grasping at straws in my opinion. We all know the Roswell witnesses were ridiculed and their names smeared, just as your article about Marcel points out nicely.

Many of these men had highly decorated military careers. These men were members of the 509th who dropped the bomb on Japan and were considered elite US military.

Do you really think these Brig. Generals were out to get their names smeared by claiming a spaceship of alien origin had crashed in the desert?

Combine this with the Airforce changing their story 3 times, coming up with the final explanation that Mogul balloon train #4 was responsible for the Roswell incident which was later proven false as Mogul Balloon #4 never flew.

But I take it no witness or other evidence will be good enough for you to consider other possibilities. Obviously they are all lying through their teeth to get their names smeared by people like yourself.

There is just too much evidence that an alien space craft crashed in Roswell in July 1947 for any other tenuous hypothesis about any kind of 'balloon' to hold water.

As early as 1950, Major Donald Keyhoe was writing in his classic expose of the US Government's UFO cover-up 'The Flying Saucers are Real' about the Roswell crash. He refers to rumors circulating throughout the Air Fortce that one of the 'flying disks' that Air Force pilots were daily being ordered to intercept had crashed somewhere in NM, and that the bodies of the alien pilots had been recovered and flown to Wright Field where they were stored in maximum security conditions.

The allegations were repeated in his 1953 best-seller 'Flying Saucers from Outer Space.' I have first editions of both these books and so am CERTAIN this was widely known amongst USAAF/USAF personnel on the military grapevine in the early 50s, and the truth was later clamped down on. The initial press release was correct, and only on day 2 did the censorship start, instigated from Washington DC.

Keyhoe had an office inside The Pentagon for a couple of years and knew all the USAF high command. Some of them knew about Roswell 'officially' and some 'unofficially.' But they all knew.

Jesse Marel Jr, who I know personally, maintains to this day that the debris his father brought home in the trunk of his car in July 1947 and which Jesse Jr handled on the kitchen table was 'not of this world.' He knew it, his father knew it, Ramey knew it, Brazel knew it, everyone knew it. Jesse is a man of unimpeachable honesty and integrity, has served his counrty as a military doctor for many decades (and was even called up to serve a tour in Iraq in his 60s, which he did from duty) and I would believe his testimony before any 'balloon' cover-story baloney.

Jesse was later told, in so many words, by officials in DC that what he saw was in fact the debris from an ET crash. This is a long, long story but you can read part of it in his book 'Witness to Roswell.'

If you've reearched the whole Roswell thing and are acquainted with the thorough and extensive work of people like Stan Friedmann, Tom Carey and Don Schmitt, read all the deathbed confessions and looked at the documents, you'll know that what crashed in 47 was ET. Nothing else fits the facts. There is just too much evidence. Schmitt alone tracked down and personally interviewed over 600 witnesses, both military and civilian, over 10 years. Most of them are unfortunately no longer with us; the event was 60 years ago.

Of course a balloon might ASLO have crashed, but that's not what caused the enormous military presence in the area for the following weeks, the scrupulous collecting of every last scrap of material from the area, the death threats and intimidation of so many witnesses; not to mention the airlifting of the small bodies from Roswell to Wright Field inside small caskets in a specially adapted B29, in support of which event there are multiple witnesses and attendant flight plan and other documents.

No-one is going to fool me into thinking it was a balloon, or anything Japanese (Japan had been under 100% US military occupation for 2 years by 1947), or Russian, or a US 'secret project.' What all the fuss was about was something not designed or constructed by anyone on Earth.

Originally posted by bovarcher
There is just too much evidence that an alien space craft crashed in Roswell in July 1947 for any other tenuous hypothesis about any kind of 'balloon' to hold water.

As early as 1950, Major Donald Keyhoe was writing in his classic expose of the US Government's UFO cover-up 'The Flying Saucers are Real' about the Roswell crash. He refers to rumors circulating throughout the Air Fortce that one of the 'flying disks' that Air Force pilots were daily being ordered to intercept had crashed somewhere in NM, and that the bodies of the alien pilots had been recovered and flown to Wright Field where they were stored in maximum security conditions.

The allegations were repeated in his 1953 best-seller 'Flying Saucers from Outer Space.' I have first editions of both these books and so am CERTAIN this was widely known amongst USAAF/USAF personnel on the military grapevine in the early 50s, and the truth was later clamped down on. The initial press release was correct, and only on day 2 did the censorship start, instigated from Washington DC.

Keyhoe had an office inside The Pentagon for a couple of years and knew all the USAF high command. Some of them knew about Roswell 'officially' and some 'unofficially.' But they all knew.

Here's where fact starts blending with science fiction. Keyhoe co-founded
the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, a civilian organization that pressed the government for more information on UFOs.
No office in the Pentagon I can find a reference to.

More insightful is the fact that Keyhoe was a pulp writer before a UFOlogist. Below is an excerpt from his Wikipedia entry.


" ... Keyhoe was already a well-established author with numerous appearances in the pulp magazines of the 1920s and 30s. Four of his short stories were printed in Weird Tales, one of the most prestigious of the pulps: "The Grim Passenger" (1925), "The Mystery Under the Sea" (1926), "Through the Vortex" (1926) and "The Master of Doom" (1927). He also produced the lead novel for all three issues of a short-lived magazine called Dr. Yen Sin: "The Mystery of the Dragon's Shadow" (May/June 1936), "The Mystery of the Golden Skull" (July/August 1936) and "The Mystery of the Singing Mummies" (September/October 1936).

Keyhoe wrote a number of air adventure stories, for Flying Aces and other magazines, and created two larger-than-life superheroes in this genre. The first of these was Captain Philip Strange, referred to as "the Brain Devil" and "the Phantom Ace of G.2.". Captain Strange was an American intelligence officer during World War I who was gifted with ESP and other mental powers.

Keyhoe's other "superpowered" flying ace was Richard Knight, a World War I veteran who was blinded in combat but gained a supernatural ability to see in the dark. Knight featured in a number of adventure stories set in the 1930s (when the stories were written).

Many of Keyhoe's stories for the pulps were science fiction or weird fantasy, or contained a significant measure of these elements –- a fact that was not lost on later critics of his UFO books. "

Originally posted by mmiichael
More insightful is the fact that Keyhoe was a pulp writer before a UFOlogist. Below is an excerpt from his Wikipedia entry.

Why is this more insightful?

And why did you leave out the following part from his Wiki?

Following Kenneth Arnold's report of odd, fast-moving aerial objects in the summer of 1947, interest in "flying disks" and "flying saucers" was widespread, and Keyhoe followed the subject with some interest, though he was initially skeptical of any extraordinary answer to the UFO question. For some time, True (a popular American men's magazine) had been inquiring of officials as to the flying saucer question, with little to show for their efforts. In about May 1949, after the Air Force had released contradictory information about the saucers, editor Ken Purdy turned to Keyhoe, who had written for the magazine, but who also, importantly, had many friends and contacts in the military and the Pentagon.

[edit on 26/1/09 by Fastwalker81]

Originally posted by Frank Warren
Myth,

Originally posted by TheMythLives
reply to post by humanaqurian

 

ok? But I have more info available to me than Mr. Brazell had at that time. He probably did not know what he was looking (which he obviously didn't). I thought my images were good, what bad images are you talking about? The ones taken in 1944-45?

Mac Brazel did not know what he was looking at; however he certainly was familiar with "weather balloons" as they were common place with the ranchers in the area and danger to livestock.

To reiterate:

Here's the problem with "any" balloon theory; at the end of the day no matter their use,"top secret" or not, the balloons are just that i.e., balloons! They're not made of anything "exotic, nor unrecognizable to the men of the 509th.

FUGO balloons, or what you're calling "fire balloons" were made of paper (15 meter-type A) and "rubberized silk" (9 meter-type B).

The last balloons launched were in either March or April, 1945 as the factories which supplied the materials (including hydrogen) were destroyed by American bombing.

There is no record of any balloon falling in New Mexico, although some reached as far east as Michigan.

Separately, the debris as shown in Ramey's office as been identified as "Rawin Radar reflector" material.

As to the "biological" end to your hypotheses, first this was 1947, the war was over, the Japanese were under military occupation by the United States and it's allies; moreover, any "biologicals would have affected Brazel, and Dee Proctor along with his neighbors.

The same evidence that debunks the Air Force dogma i.e., weather and or Mogul balloons, "debunks any balloon theorem." With the additional fact that we know what happened to the balloon launching facilities, and balloons etc.

Finally, forgive me for using an often repeated "salient point": to suggest that the head intelligence officer of the only nuclear armed Air Force base in the world, along with a counter intelligence officer couldn't identify a balloon in contrast to "exotic debris" is quite frankly pure flap doodle! (No offense).

Cheers,
Frank

excellent posts Frank

thank you for presenting this very logical viewpoint.

i noticed the Op hasn't even acknowleged or responded to any of your posts



[edit on 26-1-2009 by easynow]

Originally posted by mmiichael

Here's where fact starts blending with science fiction. Keyhoe co-founded
the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, a civilian organization that pressed the government for more information on UFOs.
No office in the Pentagon I can find a reference to.

More insightful is the fact that Keyhoe was a pulp writer before a UFOlogist...

I am very familiar with Donald Keyhoe's bio, thanks. Yes, he was a published fiction writer and simultaneously a serving Marine Corps officer at the time of the Roswell crash. So he had written fiction. So what? He also wrote a book about Charles Lindburgh.

The records demonstrate he regularly attended meetings at The Pentagon between 1948-55. This was immediately following the Roswell incident, during which time his fellow officers were discussing the crash and the recovered bodies. I cited his first 2 books, published when he was still a serving officer so a kind of 'Insider,' because specific references are made in them (in 1950 n& 1953) to the alleged NM UFO disk crash. This story was not made up in the 1980s, as some have alleged. It was known about in 1950 and discussed throughout the US military.

Keyhoe only joined NICAP after retiring from the Marine Corps in 1956. By then, he was (as you probably know) convinced there was a cover-up of the ET presence being orchestrated at the highest levels of Government and the military. He wasn't the only one. The 'information embargo' persists to this day.

Have you read Keyhoe's books BTW? If not, you should. Richard Dolan, in 'UFOs & the National ecurity State'

www.amazon.com...=1026984914/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-5681802-3250556?n=283155

considers Keyhoe the most important UFO researcher ever, bar none, due to his high public profile and outspoken and fearless pursuit of openness on the issue.

Roswell is the issue here. Evidence that something of non-human origin crashed and was recovered in 1947 was known about and openly discussed as early as 1949-50 throughout the Army, the Navy, the AF & Marine Corps. It's on the record.

The baloney about a Mogul balloon, and other orhestrated disinformation about Russian or Japanese originated 'technology' or 'a secret US project designed by German scientists working at Los Alamos' and all the other nonsense were manufactured as a part of the ongoing cover-up. Some people are still fooled by this, unfortunately, when the evidence of what really crashed there is overwhelming for anyone who cares to look. It's 'a secret in plain sight.'

reply to post by TheMythLives


Not a biological agent.

All witnesses also claimed an unusual smell. But death nor injury was not a result of breathing this unusual smell.

Brazel and all of his family, with the exception one son, all lived to ripe old ages, the one son died mysteriously in a hunting accident. If it was a biological agent, it would have killed not only Brazel, who kept it in his truck for several days before the long drive to Roswell from Corona, but it would have killed the sheriff, and Marcel, who took some wreckage in his car to show his family. Marcel also lived a full life, and Marcel Jr is still alive.

Another country? Although that would definitely have been considered as a possibility, not likely.

All witnesses that claim to see bodies pretty much agree on one fact-not human. The radio station manager asked Brazel about the little green men off air after Brazel gave the weather balloon story, he said, 'they weren't green.' His daughter also stated that Brazel called them 'poor unfortunate creatures'.

And on and on.

Mornin' Myth

Originally posted by TheMythLives
reply to post by Fastwalker81

 

Marcel had a history of embellishment and exaggeration, such as claiming to have been a pilot and having received five Air Medals for shooting down enemy planes, claims which were found to be false, and his evolving Roswell story was another instance of this. But what did they have to gain besides ridicule? Fame in the public eyes, look the Roswell case became so famous that everyone involved was known. Thats what they had to gain, Fame and they obviously achieved it.

link

I find great irony in the fact that when "anecdotal evidence" is offered in opposition to your theorem you retort with the "Bernie Madoff analogy"; however, you then use an "anecdote from a well known debunker" and that seems to be "OK"; in my view you can't have it both ways.

In any event, the only "history" Marcel has/had is that of a patriot! I find those that resort to character assassination like "Todd" distasteful to be polite.

Jesse Marcel Sr. is/was a man that most Americans would have wanted to meet, shake his hand and say, "thank you." Accordingly, the patriotism, honor and service to country "runs in the family," as Jesse Jr has satisfactorily filled his father's shoes!

Moreover, I would argue that "nothing has been proven"; only that some of Marcel's statements aren't reflected in his records that Todd "says" he had in his possession. (Not that I disbelieve him, but remember everyone "believed" Bernie Madoff as well:

The "balloon theory," regardless of the origin is old; first offered by the Air Force over 60 years ago as being a "weather" balloon; (after first reporting that it was a "Flying Saucer"); then later they (the Air Force) claimed that the first two reports were lies, and that it was really part of the "Mogul Project" with emphasis on the "top secret" end of it, omitting the fact that what carried the package was "still a balloon!"

The bottom line is that "any" balloon theory has been thoroughly debunked . . . one only need to examine the evidence.

Respectfully,
Frank Warren


[edit on 26-1-2009 by Frank Warren]

Mornin' EN,

excellent posts Frank

thank you for presenting this very logical viewpoint.

i noticed the Op hasn't even acknowleged or responded to any of your posts

[edit on 26-1-2009 by easynow]

Your post has got me laughing this morning--thanks I needed that!

Yes, I seem to have been overlooked . . . :>(.

Seriously, though this argument is old and has been beaten to death! Changing the origin of the "balloon" to Japan doesn't help the theory, it only shores up the opposition to it by adding another wild, implausible element.

Moreover, the notion that some sort of "biological agent" selectively shrunk and distorted military personnel, which Myth wants us to believe was responsible for people talking about the "little people" is even more outlandish then the Air Force's anthropomorphic dummy story which took place 5 years after the fact.

Cheers,
Frank