Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

I am going to have to somewhat disagree with the last posters..

People will choose. They are being given the choice now between life and death. NOt just here.. but all over. I do not believe in hell in an eternal sense, but I do believe in being cut off from the recycle list, so to speak. If the lie is there in front of them and they choose the lie that is death, they have chosen and death is what will happen, which can be said another way.. cut off from G.d.

I do not know if *we* are recycled, but I do know that there is a choice given clearly to some and they knowingly are choosing death over life. It will become more apparent. So, to say it doesn't matter can be very misleading. It does matter.

I do not force anyone to buy into what I say, but they have all the resources to see what I say is true.. and they will choose. It will be their own hand that condemns them to be cutting off from G.d. And again, I assume that just means death.. Since I do not choose death, I pay no attention as to where a person goes after death. My eyes are focused on Life. What is in front of me is Life.

There has been some discussion about a second shepherd, due to this verse:

I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. John 5:43

And, it has been suggested that it is Paul who is this second shepherd.

I have a few questions, because there are some things I don't understand how this has been determined.

First off, how has it been determined that there is only a 'second' shepherd? The verse doesn't limit the number of individuals that could come in his own name.

Secondly, it seems to me that since all the apostles (including Paul) were contemporaries, that each of them would/could/should be considered this "another" mentioned in that verse. How is it that they are exempt?

Thirdly, where does the idea come from that this other person is a 'shepherd'?

Thank you.

reply to post by darkelf

Justamomma, in your response to Grandma on page 52 of this thread you said:

Originally posted by justamomma
Tell me.... everywhere Paul says "it is written" ... where are those things? Some I can find and those are the ones that are mentioned ONCE with a warning attached. There are MANY THINGS He claims.. "it is written" and yet it is NOT in there. It may be written, but not in the Tanakh.

I searched the New Testament for every verse where Paul says “it is written” and have found the corresponding scriptures from the Old Testament.

Wanted to take a moment to commend and thank you for the time and effort it took for you to put the 33 (or was it 32?) verses wherein Paul said "it is written" and provided the old testament passage for each of those verses.

A little late in doing this, since your post is on page 58 of this thread.

Better late than never!


as usual an edit for html


[edit on 21-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by L.I.B.




LIB ...read Zech 11;16

I believe that those scriptures pertain to this ....but it says woe to the idol shepherd who leaves the flock ..etc etc ..(that Idol shepherd was not Paul in my opinion ..he did not leave the flock ..Judas did when he betrayed Christ )
Judas was also considered a son of perdition ..like the Antichrist is....
That shepherd is who I believe will come in his own name (THE AC)
It is describing the Antichrist or false prophet .
In my HUMBLE OPINION ..yes it is just my opinion ..

PS >To ALL .........I am not interested in being right ...I am interested in learning what the scriptures are talking about and to whom it is talking about ....and I am interested in finding the truth in the scriptures....being right is NOT IMPORTANT to me in the least ..it may be to some of you ..but to me it is not ......I just want to find the truths in those scriptures .
Which I believe if we can all just put our opinions aside and actually study the scriptures together we would all find out the truths ..
But the problem here is those who say they need not to study any scriptures ...but they just know some things ...because God told them ..Needs to come up with some proof other than because you say it is so .
From somewhere ...if not scriptures then where will you get that proof >?

I dont know why we cant all read the scriptures and reason together to actually see what is the truth without everyone just saying ..I AM RIGHT .your wrong etc .etc ...........
All of us just have an opinion of what this means or that means ..
My opinion is worth just as much as anyones ...in my opinion that is lol..
And it upsets me when everyone says my opinion means nothing ..

[edit on 21-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

The Question of this thread was .......Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour ?


Personally I believe that Paul was not the new saviour that was invented .
But the new saviour that has been invented is the Self Saviour ..And the apostles even understood this ...and I believe is why they wrote the scriptures below ....

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Jhn 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

NOTICE these came from the FIRST FIVE BOOKS ..not from Pauls writings.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Thank you. You have stated perfectly what I have been thinking. Everybody has their own interpretation of scripture, regardless of how they received it, or how enlightened they think they are, myself included, and their interpretations are right in their/our own eyes. I tend to agree with you, darkelf, grandma, johnmatrix,and lib. I think you have stated and proved your points beautifully and articually and can see your fustration because I too am fustrated with some of the closedmindedness. When I told badmedia that I would search, I did( although not the first time I looked and searched ). I was/am open to correction, from God, because He has the final say so in what I accept as truth. Now, I know, that christ (the atser, not the real one) will tell me I searched wrong or whatever,lol. But that doesn't matter because I know God will correct me. Humble means totally teachable, and I daily humble myself under the mighty hand of God.
Sorry to go on so long, but I did warn in the begining of this thread that I do ramble, lol.

[edit on 21-1-2009 by One4truth]

Originally posted by One4truth
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

Thank you. You have stated perfectly what I have been thinking. Everybody has their own interpretation of scripture, regardless of how they received it, or how enlightened they think they are, myself included, and their interpretations are right in their/our own eyes.

Thus the rule of thumb.. Isaiah 8: 20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Since you all are not even speaking to the Law, but rather against.. well, I am not the one says you do not have the light in you, the Word does.

I used and still use this rule of thumb as I continue to learn. The teachings that speak to the law and to the testimony (the prophets) I accept and what does not, I reject.

Thus, I could accept the Word of Jesus despite what appears to be minor manipulations, but I can not accept what Paul says because he does not speak to the law and to the testimnoy.

You accept something simply because it is in a book and you worship that book rather than the Creator. It is that simple.

Clearly put.. most of you are into paganism. *shrugs* And since you are, it is no wonder that you refuse to just say the truth of the matter.

The above is the closest to the truth that has come from most of you. You have your own interpretations rather than the truth.

reply to post by darkelf


Hey LIB.. the response of his is found here.. it is on page 58. I know only because I have it bookmarked as I am still in the process of putting together a reply to it.

Originally posted by Simplynoone

PS >To ALL .........I am not interested in being right ...I am interested in learning what the scriptures are talking about and to whom it is talking about ....and I am interested in finding the truth in the scriptures....being right is NOT IMPORTANT to me in the least ..it may be to some of you ..but to me it is not ......I just want to find the truths in those scriptures .
Which I believe if we can all just put our opinions aside and actually study the scriptures together we would all find out the truths ..
But the problem here is those who say they need not to study any scriptures ...but they just know some things ...because God told them ..Needs to come up with some proof other than because you say it is so .
From somewhere ...if not scriptures then where will you get that proof >?

I dont know why we cant all read the scriptures and reason together to actually see what is the truth without everyone just saying ..I AM RIGHT .your wrong etc .etc ...........
All of us just have an opinion of what this means or that means ..
My opinion is worth just as much as anyones ...in my opinion that is lol..
And it upsets me when everyone says my opinion means nothing ..

And this is why I am better off trying to teach a blind man the color blue. You once again completely ignore everything I posted and dismiss it because I wasn't quoting scripture.

You don't know anything if it isn't printed in that book. You prove you don't actually have a personal relationship with god, you've replace god's word with the bible.

That is your choice, but I'm not going to keep wasting my time on you. I wasted over and hour last night on you. Actually took the time to print out a completely explanation that actually fits right with the scripture. And for what? Nothing.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
The Question of this thread was .......Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour ?


Personally I believe that Paul was not the new saviour that was invented .
But the new saviour that has been invented is the Self Saviour ..And the apostles even understood this ...and I believe is why they wrote the scriptures below ....

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Jhn 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

NOTICE these came from the FIRST FIVE BOOKS ..not from Pauls writings.

Nice, completely take the verses out of context will you please. You quote 1 verse here and there.

Does it not occur to you that he is talking about those who try to save their flesh and worldly life? Does it not occur to you there is a reason why he says lose life to preserve it?

1 example.

John 12

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

reply to post by justamomma

Hey LIB.. the response of his is found here.. it is on page 58.

Yeah, I know... that's what I said.

I know only because I have it bookmarked as I am still in the process of putting together a reply to it.

Oh-kay.


(Don't know what any of that had to do with my thanking DarkElf.)

Originally posted by darkelf
Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

My response to this can be found here:

reply to post by justamomma

Romans 2:24
For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written

Isaiah 52:5
Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

Hahaha.. I love how Paul so blatantly exposes himself all throughout his writings. It really is no wonder that G.d said no man would have an excuse for choosing the lie over the truth.

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Psalm 51:4
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Romans 3: 5 Paul says "...(I speak as a man)"

Yes, G.d is true and the man is the liar. Thus why I say our salvation comes in the Law. Man lies, G.d does not. Man breaks laws, G.d does not. Thus, when G.d says His laws are eternal, that is what He meant. The one who says that the Laws are no longer in effect is the one NOT to follow.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Romans 3: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Psalm 14: 1 does not say "there is none righteous, no, not one:".. it says, "the fool hath said.. there is no G.d." and THAT "person is corrupt and have ... "

Romans 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Genesis 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Yes, in the verse prior to vs 17, Paul says "Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

G.d said, a father of many nations.. not all.

Romans 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Psalm 44:22
Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Very true.. but he is equating this to people in whom it does not apply. Psalm 44 is speaking of the lost sheep of Israel. Now, realize that the lost sheep *are* scattered amoung the nations.. they have been mixed in with the gene pools of the world.. and so how does one know if they are a lost sheep? They will hear the voice of their shepherd, the Word.. they will not hear the voice of a stranger.. a man.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Malachi 1:2
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Malachi 1:3
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Obviously the last two verses are very true.

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Isaiah 8:14
And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

and Paul says "whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed..."

But the next to verses in chapter 8 of Isaiah say, "15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples."

How is the truth not obvious to all of you?


(Again, to the poster who took the time, thank you. I will finish my response in another post.. though I am not entirely finished. Just wanted to at least post what I do have for you.)


[edit on 21-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
I am sick of people making claims about God, while at the same time showing no real wisdom or understanding. I am sick of people making claims that to "worship" God means you sit around and talk nice and give lip service. I am sick of people thinking a personal relationship with god means being able to repeat the bible. I am sick of it all.

I agree. What is worship and how do we worship God? Worship is to revere or pay homage or adoration. We worship God in our prayers, supplicating ourselves before Him. We worship God through our praise of His Glory and Majesty. But most of all, we worship God by obeying Him.

Worship is more than going to church and singing songs and listening to a preacher. Through studying the Bible, not only in the English, but in the Hebrew and Greek, we learn about our God. The Tanakh is more than a history of Israel. It is God revealing Himself to us. In all of His Honor and Glory and Majesty; God reveals Himself and His love for us. When we can begin to comprehend what that means, then we can worship Him.

*edit spelling*


[edit on 1/21/2009 by darkelf]

reply to post by L.I.B.


haha .. you sure did. sorry.. and editing to add what I had here to instead say that I misread your post altogether.. lol am having one of those off days I suppose.

Edited to add: and LIB, I have not changed since we first started talking. Why the contempt for me now? It really is getting to be quite tiring to have the snippy comments.. You don't *have* to participate in this thead ya know.. I am asking you, that if you continue, to please be decent.



[edit on 21-1-2009 by justamomma]

Okay then if you all will excuse me I am going to go and bow down to the words of the bible ......and worship my bible ..(NOT )

sheesh ..


No problem I will just skip the bible and tell you what I think ..
And then of course you will ask me where is my proof ..and when I show you in scripture you will tell me to stop worshipping my scriptures ...lol ..
Since the only proof I have without the scriptures is my own mind which is filled up with THAT WORD that Badmedia says he is sick of and Justamomma says is only the OT ....And then the subject of the law ..You two do not even agree on that ..Justamomma says the OT WORD (LAW) is all that matters .....Badmedia says the law is what Paul taught that obeying the law is all that matters etc ....and he says Paul is a liar ...why arent you calling Justamomma out Badmedia for teaching the same things you have accused Paul of doing ? That the LAW is all that matters ?.....and we must obey the Authorities as Paul said > ?? ......
You two do not even agree ..and yet here ya all patting eachother on the back ...

I cant keep up ...

reply to post by justamomma

haha .. you sure did. sorry.. and editing to add what I had here to instead say that I misread your post altogether.. lol am having one of those off days I suppose.

I didn't understand that your post was intended to correct me. The part that you took out with your edit, which showed that you read me saying page 53 instead of page 58.

It's understandable to misread sometimes. Afterall there was a 3 in that post you were thinking I had the wrong page.

Edited to add: and LIB, I have not changed since we first started talking. Why the contempt for me now? It really is getting to be quite tiring to have the snippy comments.. You don't *have* to participate in this thead ya know.. I am asking you, that if you continue, to please be decent.

I haven't any contempt for you. Though, I was confused why you posted what you did. But, you clarified that prior to your edit, which showed that you had read my post as saying page 53 instead of page 58.

So, now, instead of being gracious as you were by telling me you had misread my post, you now redirect to tell me how awful I am, again!

Who's being snippy?

reply to post by Simplynoone


huh? I have not read that from badmedia? What I have read is that he sees the same thing I do about Paul.. Paul teaches AGAINST the Law.

And I could know the Truth without the Tanakh, but we need some ground in which to base what we are discussing here, no?

That is why I am using the Tanakh. Both Paul and I claim to use it as a grounding point, and thus, since he and I don't teach the same things, who is right based on the Tanakh?

He speaks against the law and replaces it with a man.. I speak in favor of the Law because it is in the Law that I can decipher the truths from the lies. Who is right based on the Tanakh?

He and I are both of flesh and blood, now based on Isaiah 8: 20, who has the light in them?



[edit on 21-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by darkelf
I agree. What is worship and how do we worship God? Worship is to revere or pay homage or adoration. We worship God in our prayers, supplicating ourselves before Him. We worship God through our praise of His Glory and Majesty. But most of all, we worship God by obeying Him.

Worship is more than going to church and singing songs and listening to a preacher. Through studying the Bible, not only in the English, but in the Hebrew and Greek, we learn about our God. The Tanakh is more than a history of Israel. It is God revealing Himself to us. In all of His Honor and Glory and Majesty; God reveals Himself and His love for us. When we can begin to comprehend what that means, then we can worship Him.

Here's the problem. You mention this is god revealing himself to the people. What is forgotten is that he is actually revealing himself to those people, and this is simply a recorded history of it.

And today, people are giving up the same kind of revealing which is available in exchange for the history on how another time period got it. Because they do not have wisdom and do not understand that it is possible. People believe a personal relationship with god is not possible, or that only in the scripture can you find it. But that is simply not true.

So in effect they have replaced it with the literal word/history of other peoples experiences. Which is recorded in history as legend.

The true experience is described in John 14. If that isn't there, then there is no seeing the truth, that is when the holy spirit comes to someone and teaches them, that is when you realize/know the spiritual and so on.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

But people straight up deny it unless it's happened to them. They cling to a previous history, and a literal interpretation most times, and fail to see or understand when the same thing happens around them.

When I read the story of Jesus, I can see present day representations for everything in it. It's not just a story of 2000 years ago, it's a story of today as well. But to be wise and make wise decisions, you must be able to see this. Otherwise, you don't know how to apply the lesson.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
I didn't understand that your post was intended to correct me. The part that you took out with your edit, which showed that you read me saying page 53 instead of page 58.

It's understandable to misread sometimes. Afterall there was a 3 in that post you were thinking I had the wrong page.

Well, my intent was not to correct you for the sake of correcting you. I just thought it would be nice for people to be able to read the post you were referring to. After all, I do agree with you.. he took the time and effort to search it and post it. That to me is commendable.

And as for the rest of your post, good.. I am glad we have the misunderstanding cleared up.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
PS >To ALL .........I am not interested in being right

Just noticed this.... and this is what scares me.