Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

a friend of mine asked me to review the words and phraseology of the story of abraham and sarah, when they were visited by the "angels". he expected me to acknowledge they were simply royals, who departed hence to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah after their little conversation with the couple. that was until i looked at the original hebrew lol

THOSE were some really weird "men" that came to visit A & S

i challenge the readers of this thread to use this STRONG'S CONCORDANCE
www.eliyah.com... to find the original words and the meanings for the words of Genesis 18, particularly each instance of the word "man" and "Lord"
www.biblegateway.com...

oh and also check the meaning of "men" (not just man).

2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men
------

three enoshe--(anash), came to visit. lol

gotta love english.

[edit on 20-1-2009 by undo]

378 'Iysh-Bosheth eesh-bo'-sheth from 376 and 1322; man of shame; Ish- Bosheth, a son of King Saul:--Ish-bosheth.

382 'Iysh-Towb eesh-tobe' from 376 and 2897; man of Tob; Ish-Tob, a place in Palestine:--Ish-tob.

notice iysh is the word for man in those references, rather than adam.

here's a website that gets really indepth on the subject. the person appears to be rather.....erm.....how can i put this gently? ...somewhat anti-semitic?
ignore that part and just consider the usage of man in the references. it's necessary to read all the examples before you get into the examples regarding Jesus as the Son of man

christianparty.net...

i don't think i can stress this heavily enough: if you want to understand the particulars, you really gotta study.

Justamomma I was not talking about just you ...I meant it as all of us ..in general ..
I even included myself ....as gods (if we are gods)we have done a very poor job at taking care of this world and the people of this world ...



[edit on 20-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

Not many of the last few pages have even been on the original topic. What is the point of this endless bickering? Are we waiting for a Muslim or Hindu to pop in and yack about some other unrelated religious argument?

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Justamomma I was not talking about just you ...I meant it as all of us ..in general ..
I even included myself ....as gods (if we are gods)we have done a very poor job at taking care of this world and the people of this world ...



[edit on 20-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

I am working to communicate to you that the world is Christ crucified.
The crucifixion of Christ has always been voluntary.
Is someone who crucifies himself taking good care of himself?

My point is that the world is functioning as it was intended, as a "place" where no one really gives a damn. It represents a kind of alter ego. The ego is a machine-like mind that, when we identify with it, mangles us beyond recognition. To identify with the ego is to attack oneself. If you think with the ego, you are continually crucifying yourself. We believe the ego is who we are. Our ego is our "life". It is not. This is the "life" Jesus taught us to lay down. To lay down such a "life" is not a sacrifice. Rather, it is freedom, it is Life, if is...the resurrection of our true mind.

The egO is like an extra gOd. As it was welcomed into the mind of the Son of God, it sought to possess it like a demon. Salvation is all about casting out this demon - this idol - out of our minds, individually and collectively. Jesus did it in the name of Christ. This means, unless you identify with Christ...unless you ARE Christ, you will not be able to cast out this demon.

The demon makes the world and rules it, using the power of the mind of the Son of God. The power provided is faith. We believe in the demon, and call it "GoD", or, with respect, G.d, or with irreverence, "gOd"...the gOd of the big "O". The gOd of the big O is a hooker, selling us our own heroin. All of this must be overcome and transcended by following Jesus.

How do we lay down our so-called "life" of ego?
Ah, that is the question.
It is not accomplished by further suffering and pain.
It is accomplished by following the instruction of the "Comforter".

The ego teaches but one thing, over and over and over again until it is pounded down into your psyche, and nails you to the ground. The ego teaches that you are nOt Christ. So, the entire world teaches you that you are nOt Christ. You can learn anything you want in the world. But you are not allowed to know that you are Christ.

Get it?

So, I can save you lots of time in church.
All you have to do is show up and have some coffee and shake the Pastors hand and say, "All I know is I am nOt Christ".
Then, you can go home.
You don't need all the extra words to teach you that.
That is all they teach at church nowadays.
So, save yourself the trouble.
If you are nOt Christ, what is the point of learning anything?

Peace,

Christ!

Originally posted by BlackProjects
Not many of the last few pages have even been on the original topic. What is the point of this endless bickering? Are we waiting for a Muslim or Hindu to pop in and yack about some other unrelated religious argument?

So many funny people willing to stop in and give us a laugh. Thanks.

The point was that I am saying the message of Paul is false and deceiving and I put it out there so that people could show me I am wrong based on the Tanakh.. from which Paul supposedly based his teaching.

Originally posted by undo
i don't think i can stress this heavily enough: if you want to understand the particulars, you really gotta study.

I appreciate all the effort and information you have put forth. I do plan on doing my best to look over it all considering you took the time. Thank you.

And never mind the anti semetism.. I honestly do mind people having opposed views. It is when a group of people get blamed for something that has nothing to do with their belief system that gets to me.

The Jewish people do not believe in human sacrifices. It is pauline doctrine and thus, it would seem that they should point the fingers back at themselves since they are the ones who requires it, no?

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by justamomma

 

Are you SURE it was in other men besides jesus? have you checked the original word for man in those references? did you know half the time a man is not a man (adam) but an ish (what the freak is an ish?)

To a degree..

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Justamomma I was not talking about just you ...I meant it as all of us ..in general ..
I even included myself ....as gods (if we are gods)we have done a very poor job at taking care of this world and the people of this world ...



[edit on 20-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify that Simplysomeone. Yes, we have. I do hope that we can change this.

reply to post by Christ!



Hey Christ ...I have not attended a church in at least 15 years ...and I really only spent about 6 months in church when I did go ....
Sorry to disappoint you .....I was not brainwashed into the church think groups ..in fact I was shunned by them because I certainly spoke up against alot of things that was going on and being taught ..or allowed etc ......I did not see anyone worshipping Paul though I can assure you that ...in fact they actually skipped over alot of what Paul taught and just picked a few lines out of his teachings here and there and tossed the rest ..thereby taking it all out of context like some here have thereby getting it all twisted up to mean something other than what was intended ..
And I do not read Christian books or self help religious books ..
The only book I read is the bible ..both OT and NT ....
And of course I have read the Quran,The Babylonian texts etc etc etc ..
I actually love digging into other beliefs and especially ancient texts just to get a feel of how they believe .....I have also read all of the so called lost books of the bible ....
So I am not just a brainwashed churchy believer

reply to post by justamomma


www.jewishencylopida.com

This is what they said about Paul. I think all need to read it or go to the site that justammama has given us. This is where I found this.

The philosopher and the Jew will greatly differ from him with regard to every argument and view of his; but both will admit that he is a mighty battler for truth, and that his view of life, of man, and of God is a profoundly serious one. The entire conception of religion has certainly been deepened by him, because his mental grasp was wide and comprehensive, and his thinking bold, aggressive, searching, and at the same time systematic. Indeed, he molded the thought and the belief of all Christendom.

Indeed, he molded the thought and the belief of all Christendom!!


Peace,
Grandma

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by justamomma

 

www.jewishencylopida.com

This is what they said about Paul. I think all need to read it or go to the site that justammama has given us. This is where I found this.

The philosopher and the Jew will greatly differ from him with regard to every argument and view of his; but both will admit that he is a mighty battler for truth, and that his view of life, of man, and of God is a profoundly serious one. The entire conception of religion has certainly been deepened by him, because his mental grasp was wide and comprehensive, and his thinking bold, aggressive, searching, and at the same time systematic. Indeed, he molded the thought and the belief of all Christendom.

Indeed, he molded the thought and the belief of all Christendom!!


Peace,
Grandma

Seems to me it is fulfilling the prophecy mentioned in this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It is prophesied in Zachariah (I think- somewhere in the Old Testament) that two "shepherds" will come. Jesus was the first but they will reject Him (this happened) but another will come, the Antichrist, who the Jews (and world) will accept as a whole. Of course there will be dissenters at the time but for the most part, many will accept the "wicked shepherd" after rejecting the "good shepherd."

In the New Testament, Jesus again warned the unbelieving Jews of His time this would happen. He said although He was rejected, another will come that the people will accept. Not sure how this will play out but I think they will accept the Antichrist for a little while as their Messiah but after he breaks the peace treaty, many will open their eyes and see.

The person who posted this quote is obviously seeing it as the wicked shepherd has yet to come. But in fact we can see this fulfilled with Paul and the RCC.

Pauls writings make up almost half the new testament in itself. More than the 12 disciples who did follow Jesus when he was alive combined. More than even Jesus himself. Proof of a "2nd Shepperd". Prophecy fulfilled.

Christianity is in itself the new religion that is formed in the name of Christ. And not to mention alot more people accept Christianity than ever accepted Christ. Prophecy fulfilled.

If you did not go along with this version, you were killed. Another prophecy fulfilled.

Also of note is that Jesus says his generation will see this. And the disciples of course do see Paul. Prophecy fulfilled again.

Paul treats and props up Jesus in the same way a politician props up the flag and country. He is accepted because of his political standpoints. Prophecy fulfilled yet again.

And on and on. And nobody seems to notice or care. They sit and wait for the new religion without realizing they are already in one. Then of course, we get crap like Scientology which everyone then claims to be the new false religion, or people like that one guy who claims to be Jesus, and they see this as "proof". But they fail to realize that most people are going to accept the new religion, and these are obvious fakes. Distractions and scapegoats to keep people from realizing the truth.

I suppose it is somewhat telling/ironic that people are unable to see this because they always look at all the other religions and what people do, but do not think to look at their own religion. Reminds me of the whole "thou hypocrite" sayings.

1+1=2. Jesus showed people how to add. How to see and understand 1+1=2 for themselves. Paul teaches 1+1=2. Paul does not teach people how to add, he teaches them 1+1=2 is true. 1+1=2 is true in itself, and this is what fools people. But Paul doesn't teach or show people how to add. Anyone can repeat 1+1=2, but that doesn't mean one can add. It just means they memorized what someone told them. But the person who understands 1+1=2, that is the person who can add. That is what Jesus taught.

It is not exactly false when Paul says 1+1=2. Or Paul says Jesus is truth. Not a false statement in itself, but it is hollow and doesn't have understanding. Jesus is the truth, but Jesus also shows you how to add. He shows you how 1+1=2, and so 1+2=3, and so 2+3=5 and so on. Which you can only see and understand if you can add. Paul and the church however will call you a heretic for saying 1+2=3, because 1+1=2 is the ONLY truth according to them. Jesus says those who believe will do greater things than he. And so those people will be able to add just as I say, which can only be done with ones who understand and walk the path, which he says you will do. You will not only see that the father is in Jesus and shines through Jesus, but is in all. You will not only see 1+1=2 as true(Jesus as true), but you will also see that 1+2=3 is true(you). That it is up to you to express the father that is within you, but you first must recognize this(John 14:20).

And this is deception and wickedness. And you can see this in all of the world, not just religion. It's the exact same thing schools do these days. They want people who can repeat what they have been taught back with good memory and accept what the book says as truth. And of course, people are dumber as a result. Because they aren't actually being shown how to learn, how to understand, so that they can take what they have learned to the next level, to progress it. It's all over. And when you understand, then you can see it not only in 1 area, but in all areas. Just as when you can add, you understand why 1+1=2, and why also 1+2=3 is true. There is a reason Jesus says those who truly believe will do as he says, and warns of people who give lip service.

I am using 1+1=2 because we can all add. So you can see the difference here. You can see what it means to understand why 1+1=2, and someone who just memorizes 1+1=2 and how while technically what they say may be true, they do not understand. And they would only ever know what they are told by other men/authority.

I see debate about "if we are gods". If there is any doubt then you have not seen or experienced the truth I'm sorry to say. If you can see it in Jesus, but you can not see it within yourself, then you have not experienced John 14:20. John 14:20 is the chapter in which people are saved by, it specifically states ON THAT DAY for a reason. ON THAT DAY YOU WILL KNOW. And then it is specifically followed by the holy spirit, who brings understanding and teaches. Paul never experienced this. You can see it because he only pays lip service to Jesus, he only says 1+1=2. He does not see it within himself and that is what leads him astray. He preaches 1+1=2 and that is the only truth.

And this is done for a reason. Because if you do not understand and you accept only 1+1=2, then that can be replaced and picked up to do things which are false. They will just create a false idol in 1+1=2 and get people to worship it, and they will follow the idol around and do what authority says, and actively support it.

God in the OT at one point talks about not making an idol of him. And at first, I thought - sounds evil, like he's trying to keep knowledge from man. Not the case, it's because if you embrace the single idol then you have missed the point. You have embraced 1+1=2 as the only truth, and did so because you failed to understand.

If you know algebra, then you know that A+B=C. Where the letter is a variable, and that variable can be replace by any number. So, A+B=C is stating that 1+1=2, and 1+2=3 and 2+3=5. Where in example 1, A =1, B=1, and C=2. Example 2, A=1, B=2, C=3. Example 3, A=2, B=3, C=5.

So think of Jesus in terms of A+B=C, rather in terms of a literal 1+1=2. Put yourself in his shoes and understand it, then you will see the truth. A+B=C is what Jesus teaches. The understanding behind 1+1=2. Paul only teaches 1+1=2, and that is why he is wicked Shepperd/false prophet. There is a reason people are decieved, it's not going to be obvious. It's not going to be done in black and white. Nobody ever markets their products by calling it a pile of crap. It's "awesome", "great", "best", "only one with" etc.

And it has nothing to do with IQ. IQ is only a measure in how fast you learn, now what you are capable of.

I hope this makes sense, because I am running out of ways to explain it.

Justamomma ...take a look at this ok ...

The Holy One of Israel ..the Redeemer ...Jesus

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:


Job talks about a ransom .....(that ransom was Jesus) Job foretold of him too.
Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.


Here is what the NT says ....
Hsa 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

More on the Redeemer .......
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God [was] their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
((((((((((((God is the rock and the HIGH GOD is their REDEEMER)))

Pro 23:11 For their redeemer [is] mighty; he shall plead their cause with thee.

Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.


Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


Isa 47:4 [As for] our redeemer, the LORD of hosts [is] his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I [am] the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way [that] thou shouldest go.

Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou [art] our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, [art] our father, our redeemer; thy name [is] from everlasting.

Jer 50:34 Their Redeemer [is] strong; the LORD of hosts [is] his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.


Notice the word Redeemer is even capitalized in some scriptures (I didnt do that ) .......

Originally posted by Grandma

Indeed, he molded the thought and the belief of all Christendom!!


Peace,
Grandma

And the egO moulds the thought and belief of the whole world.

Christ!

Originally posted by Simplynoone
reply to post by Christ!

 

Hey Christ ...I have not attended a church in at least 15 years ...and I really only spent about 6 months in church when I did go ....
Sorry to disappoint you .....I was not brainwashed into the church think groups ..in fact I was shunned by them because I certainly spoke up against alot of things that was going on and being taught ..or allowed etc ......I did not see anyone worshipping Paul though I can assure you that ...in fact they actually skipped over alot of what Paul taught and just picked a few lines out of his teachings here and there and tossed the rest ..thereby taking it all out of context like some here have thereby getting it all twisted up to mean something other than what was intended ..
And I do not read Christian books or self help religious books ..
The only book I read is the bible ..both OT and NT ....
And of course I have read the Quran,The Babylonian texts etc etc etc ..
I actually love digging into other beliefs and especially ancient texts just to get a feel of how they believe .....I have also read all of the so called lost books of the bible ....
So I am not just a brainwashed churchy believer

You miss my point. Where are you getting your information? Whereever you are getting it from...what is the point? All you know is that you are nOt Christ. So what is the point of studying further? The world and its books teach but one thing: you are nOt Christ. Why do you need so many books and chapters and verses to teach you this when one sentence will do?

If Christ ever said, "All I know is I am nOt Christ", a world would arise to show him what he does not know, and what he is nOt. And that world would mercilessly teach him, every day, twenty four hours a day, for millions of years exactly what he says is "the truth".

Sister, I got news for you. You are Christ. And you were "there" when this pronouncement was made upon yourself: "All I know is that I am nOt Christ". The result is what you see. And daily, you continue to make pronouncements about what is, and what is not true. And you can keep doing this for a million years if you want.

But the *last judgement* will be a declaration of who you are.
And when you are finally willing to let the truth be true, the world will end from your experience.
Till then, you wander like the Israelites in the desert...not fourty years...not four hunded...four thousand and more.
How old is the world thus far?
That is how long you have been wandering around, knowing only that you are nOt Christ.
Believe it or not.
And this is truly hell.
But,
Hell is fair and just.
Christ is in heaven.
What is nOt Christ is in hell.

Again, why bother to learn anything else.
Simple wake up and say, "All I know is I am nOt Christ".
This will save many hours of study and research.
For all your study and research tells you but one thing:
"All I know is I am nOt Christ".

"All I know is that I am nOt Christ" is what the prodigal son said, before the foundation of the world.
And with it, he said, "All I know is that I am nOt my Father's Son".

Christ!



[edit on 20-1-2009 by Christ!]

I see debate about "if we are gods". If there is any doubt then you have not seen or experienced the truth I'm sorry to say. If you can see it in Jesus, but you can not see it within yourself, then you have not experienced John 14:20.

Badmedia ...it seems to me that if yall believe yourselves to be gods then maybe you are the ones creating and serving an image ..an image of man ..the creature instead of the Creator ..

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
((((((This says the image is made like corruptable man (following mans own way in his own knowledge etc ))))))

Jer 10:14 Every man is brutish in [his] knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image [is] falsehood, and [there is] no breath in them.

Jer 10:15 They [are] vanity, [and] the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

If Revelation is metaphorical then that image of the beast could certainly be the same thing as worshipping thy own self believing themselves to be god ..

Man believing himself to be God is vanity ....in my opinion ..and is also declaring himself to be equal to God ..and I just do not see how anyone can justify that kind of thinking ......Jesus yes ..but not us because we are still corruptable man still in the flesh and subjected to death ... .Jesus is no longer flesh ......but spirit ......so we worship him in spirit not the fleshly man ..but the spirit of Jesus ..who was the express image of a HOLY GOD ..(which we cannot possibly become holy in flesh ..as this flesh will always be corruptable even if we are becoming more and more spiritual ..the flesh will still be corrupted..as it is dieing daily and there is nothing we can do about that .......not even trying real hard ..you will fail ..as this flesh feeds the desires of the flesh ) .....if a man does not believe in God at all ..he is feeding the flesh completely and even his mind will not be spiritual and is therefor even more fleshly and the feeding of that flesh also feeds the spirit fleshly thoughts ....*(Carnally minded thinking ) >......
Those who try and bypass that spirit of Jesus the HOLY ONE the redeemer ..the ransom......is like the Priests in the OT going in to the Holy Place without their blessed sanctified garments on .....

Exd 28:4 And these [are] the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office

Exd 28:43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy [place]; that they bear not iniquity, and die: [it shall be] a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

Lev 16:24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.
(((This is what the Baptism by water and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is all about ..and the blood of Jesus (he made an atonement for us and redeemed us (paid the ransom for us)) and his rightousness (as was with the Priests ) ....was our COVERING of this corruptable flesh and the same as it was with the holy garments for the Priests in the OT were ))))))))))))

Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels.

Isa 59:16 And he saw that [there was] no man, and wondered that [there was] no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance [for] clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
((the vengence part is not till his second coming ..he will repay every man according to his deeds .as it says in the next verse))
Isa 59:18 According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

NT scriptures that support this
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

reply to post by Christ!



Christ ...I really do mean this in a kind way ...I am not a complete literalist .Some take everything too literal ....and some take things all spiritual instead of balancing them out ...
And I think you over spiritualize everything .....

The word says that this world was created in the image of the heavens (this world is not heaven but in the image of the heavenly ... ..we were created in the image of God ...we are not God but an image of him .(certainly we have not been a very good one that is for sure) ....
An Image is not the same as the real thing ....
There is literal and spiritual ...not just one ..without the other ......both exist .
Together ........

[edit on 20-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Simplynoone


Funny, this claim is directly addressed. Notice entire conversation here, not just a verse here and there from Paul used to dismiss me.

John 10.

24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their
hand,

Take a note at 38 there, and how it is repeated here in 14:20.

John 14

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

You show the true nature of the deception. You cling to Paul because you do not see. You do not understand Jesus. You reject Jesus just as you reject me.

Of course Paul says Jesus is the only one, and you are not. That is exactly the deception I pointed out to you plain as day.

The father is greater than I, for the father contains all knowledge, where as the son(I) do not. The father is like an ocean, and I am merely a drop of water in that ocean. But I AM from that ocean, and you nor anyone else can take that away.


[edit on 20-1-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Simplynoone


Simplysomeone, I appreciate this; but I just don't know what else to say. You know where to find me if anything I have said ever sinks in. I encourage and trust that you will continue to search. If you choose to hold onto what you are holding on to, then it is your choice. I respect that wholly. I may end up coming back and answer these things down the road, however, I was just led on to something more pressing. I do hope that you will forgive me for bailing out (hopefully only temporarily); but I have brought your attention to what I have seen. If you don't see it as truth, again, I must respect it.

I DO hope the best for you and appreciate your time and efforts in this thread!