Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

Justamomma ..I know you dont care to hear from me again ...but I wanted to share something with you ......personal testimony ok ...
I dont like to tell my personal story ...because well it is uncomfortable for And I have also found that hateful ones will bring it all back up in my face to try and accuse me ..But I can assure you ..I am not that person anymore ..


I was molested,raped,beaten,mentally abused,abused drugs,abused alcohol,abused my self (trying to kill myself several times) ...Wanna know why I tried to kill myself ? Because my flesh was so wicked ..after all it had been through I could not even stand to be in it ....(This was all before I knew Jesus Christ) ....or knew that God really did exist ....even though I had heard about him as a child and God even spoke to me once when I was very young ....I really just didnt care ...I was too evil to even be able to speak to God ......God was HOLY and cannot BEHOLD EVIL .....and I WAS EVIL >......Then I heard about Jesus Christ and that he was not guilty of sinning as I was ....; ..and that he could speak to the father for me (stand up for me against satan ).....and that he could cover this wicked horrible sinful body that I wanted to KILL >.with his blood that was shed at calvary ..........and could create in me a clean heart (clean body was out of the question because it will never be clean ) .....so I asked Jesus ...if you are real ...I need you badly ...please help me ....and please tell God I am so sorry ........and I accepted Jesus in my heart .....it changed my life ...from that day on .......I became a new creature .....but I still could not get rid of this filth of a body ...and I hated it ...I wanted to crawl out of it .........
so I did not grow in the Lord ...because I hated MYSELF >>>I hated this body and could not get away from it ............I kept sinking into despair ..
And ended up backslidding over and over (Because of this filthy body ) ..
Until I could not take it anymore .......I begged the Lord again ...WHAT CAN I DO >...Why is my life in such a mess again ..and why do I have to live in this wretched body that I cannot escape ....Then the Lord spoke to me one day ..and said ...My Child .....I have forgiven you ....I did not feel forgiven for some strange reason ......I asked why do I feel so horrible still ....and he said ...Because you have not forgiven yourself .......he told me that I kept continuously beating myself (I was my own punisher) ..for things that were already forgiven and forgotten by God ....he forgave me ..so why was I still beating myself ..........I realized he was right ..
And that day I said ok ...Linda I forgive you .......And I believed that Jesus has covered this wretched body with his LOVE >..and with his CLOAK OF FORGIVENESS ...and he does not see the horror this body was ...but what this body is now ..A LIVING TEMPLE FOR THE LORD ...as I gave not only my heart soul mind and body to GOD ...but Jesus came to live INSIDE MY HEART and from the INSIDE I am a new person ...and the Lord Jesus covered the OUTSIDE >>>>and with him covering it ...I can live in it and not want to KILL IT >>>....he cleansed it spiritually ....that is good enough for me to try and take care of it now ....it will never be clean ...but now I dont care ..it will be going back to dust anyway .....so I concentrait on the INSIDE of my heart (which is not the same as the outside) ...
Whether Jesus is God or not ...it really makes no difference to me ..
HE IS REAL ...HE DID FORGIVE MY SINS ...he CLEANSED MY HEART >..
And he CHANGED MY LIFE >>..things that only GOD could do ..
So no one can ever convince me that JESUS CHRIST was not who he says he was ...Because I am living PROOF >>>>.....

And I pray with all my heart that you would find it in your heart to believe him too ...........because you would not regret knowing him ...I can promise you that ..

And everytime I backslid ..he was right there so kind and loving saying to me in that still small voice ...Please take my hand ..and let me help you ..
he never stopped calling me ..THANK GOD one day I actually listened ..





[edit on 17-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Did you read my proof ?
I dont know what other proofs I could bring to the table ..
I will leave you to your thread ..

She has ignored all of the proof we gave her and she is stuck in a feedback loop.

You do a great job contending for the Faith.

And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.

I speak the Word that G.d gives me to speak. If you speak against me, you are speaking against G.d.

You speak gibberish from a "God Complex" and you make no sense at all. What you do is malign the word of God and turn people away from Him.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by justamomma]
reply to post by Simplynoone


Why someone would star you for that post, I have no idea! And simplynoone (

reply to post by John Matrix


You are an annoying little gnat. *looks for fly-swatter*

oh... and simplysomeone.. you are wrong. I do want to hear from you. I sense a beautiful person in you. You are the one who doesn't see that.

G.d gave us the knowledge... You just have to start looking at for what it is.. not through the eyes of Paul, but through the eyes of Jesus. Pay attention to what he said, because he shows you the path to freedom. Paul shows you the path to guilt and shame.

There is nothing beautiful about someone who puts themselves down all the time. Self defeatist attitudes are something I run from.

Just one more thing ..I almost told you this the other day but decided against it ..


You understand Jewish rituals ...I did not ..
I had a dream during that time in my life when I felt I could not live up to the Lord God .....

I kept asking the Lord ...why is it so hard to understand Jesus and God and why Jesus had to come and die and be raised etc etc...

he gave me a dream ..(at the time I had no IDEA about the Jewish stuff) .
In the dream the Lord was standing next to me ...and we were both at this place where there was a sacrificial alter ..( I assumed it was in Israel at a temple ) ......There were ashes in it ....and they were still hot .....
I was told they were the ashes of the red heifer (I had no clue what that was) .And he said it is real easy to understand if you will give me your hand ...so I did ...and he said just dip your finger in the ashes and you will understand ..I said no ..it is hot ...(I was afraid of getting burned) ...
So I pulled my hand back ...he took it again and gently put it in the ashes .
I suddenly understood ..that JESUS was that red heifer ..(symbolically ) ....
And from that day on I understood why we needed Jesus Christ ..
I did some studying on it after that ..

But here it is in WIKI .Simply put ............
According to Numbers 19:2: "Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke" — in other words, the animal must not have hairs of any other color, it must be in perfect health, and it must never have been used to perform work. The heifer is then slain (Numbers 19:3) and burned outside of the camp (Numbers 19:3–6). Cedar wood, hyssop, and scarlet are added to the fire, and the remaining ashes are placed in a vessel containing pure water (Numbers 19:9).

In order to purify a person who has become ritually contaminated by contact with a corpse, water from the vessel is sprinkled on him, using a bunch of hyssop, on the third and seventh day of the decontamination process (Numbers 19:18–19). The priests who have performed the ritual then become impure themselves. The priest who performs the ritual must then bathe himself and his clothes in water. He shall be deemed unclean until evening.

I did not think it was my fault that I was abused etc ...it was my fault that I kept abusing myself ..I could not forgive myself for ABUSING MY OWN SELF >.......that was what the Lord dealt with me on ....
I think you need to reread my post ...

And that was years ago ....I am no longer that person ..and now ..I find that many have been through the same ..and I tell them my life story and it helps them FORGIVE themselves TOO ......so it was not all for NAUGHT ..God took a bad thing and uses it to help others....I PRAISE HIM FOR THAT >.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Well, I think as symbolism, the death of Jesus was beautiful only in that it taught us what blind faith will do. The Laws of G.d (love the LORD your G.d with all your heart soul and mind and love others as yourself) are the path to salvation.. they give you true knowledge and deny the ignorance that you will never be good enough.

But we should never have needed death to teach us about Life. that is what is so tragic about it.

Jesus gave his life williingly to mark what he said as Truth. It wasn't to cover your wickedness.. it was to show you that you are not wicked and have the power to overcome the cycle of abuse that has taken over the world.

The blood of christ was not shed to cover you.. it was shed to expose the true evil.

Paul turns that around though. He said, you are evil and will never be anything other than evil and that is why you need the blood to cover you.

He denied the message of Jesus and sent people on the path to further destruction. Life is not something we work toward.. Life is what we are doing now.

That dream is a beautiful dream and was meant to show you something. I wonder though if you really see the truth in it.



[edit on 17-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I did not think it was my fault that I was abused etc ...it was my fault that I kept abusing myself ..I could not forgive myself for ABUSING MY OWN SELF >.......that was what the Lord dealt with me on ....
I think you need to reread my post ...

And that was years ago ....I am no longer that person ..and now ..I find that many have been through the same ..and I tell them my life story and it helps them FORGIVE themselves TOO ......so it was not all for NAUGHT ..God took a bad thing and uses it to help others....I PRAISE HIM FOR THAT >.

But that is the whole point... people need to quit seeking forgiveness. We need to start living in the goodness of what we have been given.

That was the whole point of the death penalty in the Torah... it showed people that when you live under guilt, you are not living. If people would REALLY read the first five books, they will see that it was NOT G.d who was unforgiving.. it was themselves.

He put death in there to show you Life. But that wasn't good enough because it was being taken literally. So, he showed you literally.. but that wasn't good enough either apparently because people are still condemning other people. There isn't much further He can go in ways of examples, ya know.

Jesus died not because you needed it... Jesus died to show you that if you say you need it.. then you are killing yourself and others. You say something is sin and that it needs to be paid for, then you are promoting death.

Instead.... quit looking at the death as a covering and READ and HEAR His words. He speaks of this clearly. The Tanakh speaks of this as well. Sin entered the world because we said it did and then we lived under the guilt of that.

When you were abused, it was that persons way of displacing that guilt they were feeling onto you. Now learn from that so that you are not displacing that guilt onto anyone else.. including Jesus.

When you no longer need a sacrifice, it is because you are free and making wise choices in that freedom. It is within your power.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by justamomma]

Hello everyone, I'm back. I just spent the last few days researching everything I once held to be true about Pauls teachings, about Christ, about my faith, etc. I spent countless hours praying and meditating on the word, both old and new testaments. All with a mindset of "God, if Paul was wrong, prove it, if Paul was right, prove it." if Paul was wrong I did not want to follow him into error.

To my surprise, God rebuked me for doubting someone He sent to me. God told me that if it had not been for the teachings of Paul, I would have never trusted God to be real or that God cares for me as a son. I would have looked at Jesus as just another person in the bible. Paul pointed me to Jesus and made me to look and see that my righteousness is filth if it is based on my earthly knowledge and understanding. There is no way to be good enough on my own. If it were possible, then I would have done it without Christ. I would of had an intimate relationship with my Father God. But I couldn't because no man can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ. God showed me a revelation of what it was like before and after I was saved. At first, I was standing in my room looking towards heaven asking God to reveal Himself to me because I felt hopeless ( I too have attempted suicide because I felt my life was a waste due to my filth and sin, thank you simplynoone for your testamony). But I could not enter in to the presence of God. Then, when I finally accepted what Jesus did for me on the cross, Jesus ushered me into the presence of God, and God saw me as a son (an adopted son) and He spoke to me and said "I had been waiting for you for I longed to speak to you but I could not. If I had, my presence would have made you run because of the darkness that was consuming you. I had to wait until the light of my Word was illuminated in you before I would speak. For darkness runs from light and calls it evil."
God showed me that it was Pauls teaching that opened the door for Christ to come into my heart. He (Paul) spoke in a way that led me to Christ, then Christ led me to the Father. So how do I blame Paul then for the teachings of false christianity.? I don't, I blame the men who turn his teachings into something they are not.

Originally posted by justamomma

You are not wicked... The people who inflicted that on you are the wicked ones. That is the problem with Paul's teaching! It keeps people in guilt and shame... "I am evil, therefore any evil that happens to me is what I deserve."

Part of the problem with Paul's teachings is he shifted guilt around with a bulldozer. If he wasn't putting it on the shoulders of Jesus, he was putting it on himself. If he wasn't putting it on himself, he was burying others with it...making them out to be wicked.

Originally posted by justamomma
If you say you are wicked because of someone's else's actions, you not only give them the power to continue abusing you mentally, you condemn others as evil for the abuse they have endured

So, the "wicked ones" who inflicted simplynoone with abuse, are you condemning them as evil for the abuse they may have suffered as well?

Paul is noteworthy for speaking out of both sides of his mouth...blessing one minute...cursing the other. Promises and threats together.

How are you different from Paul? It looks to me like the same guilt in a different package...new innovative ways to shift guilt around with bulldozers and broad strokes.

Instead of saying, "its not my fault", try, *its not anybody's fault*.
Or, try taking responsibility, without taking on guilt or blame.
We are responsible for what happens to us...but we are not guilty or blameworthy for it. And neither are those who help us hurt ourselves.

There are no exceptions to this. If you can accept this, it is the turning point in salvation. It marks the point in the wayward journey when one turns back, and begins to head home.

Christ!





[edit on 17-1-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by One4truth



I think that is excellent that you did that!! You know what though? That was NOT G.d who rebuked you. It may have been G.d *testing* you to see how much you really wanted to know Him, but certainly not a rebuke because that goes against HIs nature.. Let me show you why.


Paul says:
2 Cor 11: 21
I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.


Watch this.. G.d gave us the clues.. but He wants to know if you are willing to go through what it takes to find HIm. Watch!

Psalm 39: 8
Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish.

Proverbs 15: 17
The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.

Proverbs 15: 14
The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

Proverbs 16: 22
Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.


Paul says:
I Cor 3
19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

But the Lord said:
Isaiah 45: 18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Deut 1: 13
Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.

Proverbs 1: 5
A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Proverbs 10: 14
Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.


Notice, the minute that Paul's followers (*his* sheep) start feeling afflicted, in they rush to ease their afflictions.



I Thessalonians 3:

2And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.


In essence.. "don't worry.. we told you to just put your faith in this man who suffered for you and you will be okay. We told you why you would be afflicted so, just accept it. It is what it is... don't let anyone, including yourself sway you to doubt and search for youself... just trust us."

Job 15: 2
Should a wise man utter vain knowledge, and fill his belly with the east wind? (It is confirmed that Paul was of hellenistic views.. which was paganism mixed in w/ jewish babylonian rebellion aka kabbala .. thus why he speaks of going to the third heaven and was he in the body or out of)

21: 14
Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.

vs. 34
How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?

Affliction is G.d's way of saying "seek me".... NEVER WILL G.D rebuke someone who is seeking the Truth!! NEVER!! Paul however did.. He made sure that people rushed to those who were feeling G.d's call.. he told them "don't worry about.. just endure it and it will pass one day"... that is not G.d. Paul rebuked people for seeking true knowledge. He stands in the way of people and G.d.


Psalm 34
18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

How does He do this?

Proverbs 2: 6
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.


When you understand, it will be from Him and you will not doubt it one bit.. you doubted Paul, did you not? You do good. It is not wrong to doubt a man, it is wrong to doubt G.d.

A man who has true knowledge of G.d knows that G.d would never rebuke someone for questioning them.

I am glad that you do not take me at my word. I WANT YOU to seek G.d and HIS Word to see if what I say is true. Paul did not give that same freedom. You HAVE to believe it and you waver in that belief, you burn.

THAT IS NOT G.D!!! If G.d were like that, we should ALL be scared despite having blind faith..

Jesus NEVER encouraged this. He told you.. GO TO THE SCRIPTURES AND TO MOSES to see if what I say is the truth.

Paul did not do this.

You are on the right path. you took a chance and if you keep going back and pushing through that fear of making G.d mad, you will find HIm. G.d is not like a man in His anger. He tests you to see HOW much you want to know Him.

Here is a VERY fair request.

Why not, instead of trying to prove Paul wrong... spend several weeks ONLY reading the Words of Jesus and the Tanakh. No matter how hard that is.. you can't go wrong because you are not our to prove Paul wrong (thus eliminating your fear that was given from the brainwashing) and you are seeking after G.d still which you could NEVER go wrong doing that.

G.d will bless you by opening up your eyes if you do this. You will see. Just don't set out to prove paul wrong.. only keep your nose in the words of Jesus and the old testament and out of the other books.

AT the end of 3 weeks, then go back and read Paul in honesty... but may I suggest you immersing yourself in the following as much as time will allow..

Psalm
Proverbs
Job
Ecclesiastes
Jesus' words

Don't have any agendas.. just read what is written and get what you can out of them for 3 weeks. Please? I have not asked anything that would be contradictory to G.d since those are His words.


OH.. and ALWAYS before reading the Scriptures, just say firmly out loud, Father (or whatever you call Him), I want YOUR truth and not anyone else's.

When you find HIS truth you will NEVER doubt it and your feet *will* firmly rest on the rock. You will not ever be swayed. I promise!

I know ppl are saying mean things and I understand this because I know that it is their fear and doubt talking.. not so much them.









[edit on 17-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by One4truth
Hello everyone, I'm back. I just spent the last few days researching everything I once held to be true about Pauls teachings, about Christ, about my faith, etc. I spent countless hours praying and meditating on the word, both old and new testaments. All with a mindset of "God, if Paul was wrong, prove it, if Paul was right, prove it." if Paul was wrong I did not want to follow him into error.

To my surprise, God rebuked me for doubting someone He sent to me. God told me that if it had not been for the teachings of Paul, I would have never trusted God to be real or that God cares for me as a son. I would have looked at Jesus as just another person in the bible. Paul pointed me to Jesus and made me to look and see that my righteousness is filth if it is based on my earthly knowledge and understanding. There is no way to be good enough on my own. If it were possible, then I would have done it without Christ. I would of had an intimate relationship with my Father God. But I couldn't because no man can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ. God showed me a revelation of what it was like before and after I was saved. At first, I was standing in my room looking towards heaven asking God to reveal Himself to me because I felt hopeless ( I too have attempted suicide because I felt my life was a waste due to my filth and sin, thank you simplynoone for your testamony). But I could not enter in to the presence of God. Then, when I finally accepted what Jesus did for me on the cross, Jesus ushered me into the presence of God, and God saw me as a son (an adopted son) and He spoke to me and said "I had been waiting for you for I longed to speak to you but I could not. If I had, my presence would have made you run because of the darkness that was consuming you. I had to wait until the light of my Word was illuminated in you before I would speak. For darkness runs from light and calls it evil."
God showed me that it was Pauls teaching that opened the door for Christ to come into my heart. He (Paul) spoke in a way that led me to Christ, then Christ led me to the Father. So how do I blame Paul then for the teachings of false christianity.? I don't, I blame the men who turn his teachings into something they are not.

Brother, you must pray to the true GoD to get the true answer. The false gOd will never give you the right answer. As a rule of thumb, if you pray to the gOd of this world, you are praying to the "prince of the world" [see John 16:7-15]. That gOd has been judged by the Holy Spirit as false, finished, and "condemned" as an idol that does not exist but for the belief that is invested in it.

Try again. Ask the Holy Spirit...nOt the unhOly spirit. Ask the Spirit which taught Jesus the meaning of: "My Kingdom is nOt of this world".

If you ask an idol, you get the idols answer.

Peace,

Christ!



[edit on 17-1-2009 by Christ!]

Paul was not the only one who taught that Jesus has the POWER to forgive SINS .....Justamomma the Jews accused him (JESUS) of the same things you are ....THIS IS NOT JUST IN PAULS Writings .......


Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


And as far as those abusers ...The Lord forgave me ..AND HE GAVE ME THE LOVE and FORGIVENESS in my HEART to also FORGIVE them ..
And I PRAY that they too will come to know the LORD JESUS CHRIST and seek forgiveness for their sins as well ...and I hope to see them all again in heaven someday.....

Originally posted by One4truth
Hello everyone, I'm back. I just spent the last few days researching everything I once held to be true about Pauls teachings, about Christ, about my faith, etc. I spent countless hours praying and meditating on the word, both old and new testaments. All with a mindset of "God, if Paul was wrong, prove it, if Paul was right, prove it." if Paul was wrong I did not want to follow him into error.

To my surprise, God rebuked me for doubting someone He sent to me. God told me that if it had not been for the teachings of Paul, I would have never trusted God to be real or that God cares for me as a son. I would have looked at Jesus as just another person in the bible. Paul pointed me to Jesus and made me to look and see that my righteousness is filth if it is based on my earthly knowledge and understanding. There is no way to be good enough on my own. If it were possible, then I would have done it without Christ. I would of had an intimate relationship with my Father God. But I couldn't because no man can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ. God showed me a revelation of what it was like before and after I was saved. At first, I was standing in my room looking towards heaven asking God to reveal Himself to me because I felt hopeless ( I too have attempted suicide because I felt my life was a waste due to my filth and sin, thank you simplynoone for your testamony). But I could not enter in to the presence of God. Then, when I finally accepted what Jesus did for me on the cross, Jesus ushered me into the presence of God, and God saw me as a son (an adopted son) and He spoke to me and said "I had been waiting for you for I longed to speak to you but I could not. If I had, my presence would have made you run because of the darkness that was consuming you. I had to wait until the light of my Word was illuminated in you before I would speak. For darkness runs from light and calls it evil."
God showed me that it was Pauls teaching that opened the door for Christ to come into my heart. He (Paul) spoke in a way that led me to Christ, then Christ led me to the Father. So how do I blame Paul then for the teachings of false christianity.? I don't, I blame the men who turn his teachings into something they are not.

AWESOME POST ....thank you for sharing ........this is exactly what we have spend DAYS on this thread trying to explain to Justamomma and Badmedia.

reply to post by Christ!


Can any good come from satan ? NO >..does he teach preach share LOVE and FORGIVENESS ? NO >......does he create in you a clean heart ? NO >>.....
Does he tell you to love thy neighbor as yourself ?:NO ..does he teach you to LOVE THE LORD THY GOD with all your heart soul and mind ? NO >>..Do IDOLS teach that ? NO >>>......
Well that is what JESUS and his Apostles TAUGHT and TEACH to this day ..

Originally posted by Christ!
Part of the problem with Paul's teachings is he shifted guilt around with a bulldozer. If he wasn't putting it on the shoulders of Jesus, he was putting it on himself. If he wasn't putting it on himself, he was burying others with it...making them out to be wicked.

Great observation skills. And you are correct.

So, the "wicked ones" who inflicted simplynoone with abuse, are you condemning them as evil for the abuse they may have suffered as well?

I am VERY glad that you asked for clarification and should have given it. Sin becomes sin when an act is done knowingly.. so no.. I am not saying that all who abuse are wicked.

In fact, because I faced the abuse dealt out to me, I was able to fully forgive the abuser. I actually shocked people close to me because I finally got to a point where I could understand why he did it and my heart feels compassion toward him.

Because we have sons together, this was a top priority for me to get to this place. I do not view him as wicked. I view him as having recycled the abuse... and I decided the cycle needed to end.

Thank you for pointing that out and making me clarify as it is important to note this.

Where I messed up the words, the intent was to say that wickedness is that cycle continuing on.. and that happens out of guilt and shame. Someone has to put a stop to it and it is possible when we learn that we don't need forgiveness for what was done to us.. rather we need to forgive that person for what they did to us and to put that experience to use by making us aware of how our actions affect others.

The only way one can do this is by facing it.. not displacing it.

Again thank you... it certainly needed clearing up.

You contradict yourself Justamomma ..If Jesus was nothing but a mere man like Paul ....and he CLAIMED TO BE THE SON OF GOD and possibly even God himself ..Why on earth then would you tell others to READ WHAT HE WROTE >(which he did not WRITE ANY OF IT anyway ..The APOSTLES DID)
It was HE who CHOSE the TWELVE and TAUGHT THEM PERSONALLY it was THEY WHO WROTE DOWN HIS WORDS that they were taught .....who they then also TAUGHT PAUL PERSONALLY ..who also TAUGHT OTHERS personally ...etc etc .

???

I say again ....Paul taught NOTHING OTHER than what Jesus taught and the other Apostles taught ....

So I say to you Justamomma ...if you cannot believe the words of the apostles (Were taught by JESUS CHRIST himself) then you cannot believe ANY OF THEM>
You might as well toss the whole NT in the trash then .............
Which is exactly what satan would love for all of you children of the world to do ...so you will DIE STILL IN YOUR SINS ....




[edit on 17-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
AWESOME POST ....thank you for sharing ........this is exactly what we have spend DAYS on this thread trying to explain to Justamomma and Badmedia.

And that is brainwashing. You try to place guilt on us for searching the truth and for encouraging others to search the truth. you have helped to create this persons fear of rebelling against paul by making it seem he is rebelling against G.d.

You say YOU MUST ACCEPT PAUL OR ELSE!

I say.. at least put the books in the NT aside except for the words of Jesus and focus on books like proverbs, psalms, ecclesiastes, job, etc. for several weeks and don't even go at them with the mindset of trying to prove Paul wrong.


Now tell me.... whose message is more manipulative?


[edit on 17-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Simplynoone

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Sin is unbelief in Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.
Righteousness is to return to *Our Father*, nothing more, nothing less.
The Holy Spirits "judgement" on the "prince of this world" is: Does not exist.
So,
The world does not exist.
See John 16:7-15.

The world is *our* responsibility. *We* are the "prodigal [wayward] Son". There is *only one Son of God*. We are that Son. We are responsible for making the world. We feel guilty for it, and *deny* it. As such, we are hiding behind the proverbial *fig leaf*.

Our Father has only one creation: the Son of God.
The world is an imposter creation, which blasphemes Our Father's creation.
The world is our "sin".
"Sin"...as stated, is unbelief in Christ.
So, the world is unbelief in our Self.
So, the world is a desire to be something other than as GoD *Our Father* made us.
This is why we feel guilty.
We've made of ourselves a pitiful joke.
We've destroyed the Kingdom of God with our own "far off land".
So we feel guilty.

The good news of the "gospel" is that none of this is true.
Though the world seem real, and though we seem really guilty within it...
*None of it is true*.
Rather, it is a *spell* we cast upon our mind.
The spell is *dispelled* by the true *gospel* of truth.

The truth is that all are innocent.
This is true whether it is believed or not.
Believed, the truth "takes away the sins of the world".
In fact, believed, the truth *takes away the world*.
For this reason, the world shall *pass away*.
Because,
The world is a belief in our mind.
The world is brought to us by our faith, and maintained by our faith.
As such, the world is a false idol with a false gOd.

The world is our "sin".
If we confess it, the Holy Spirit is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.
But if we confess it not, we continue to deny it, and hide our guilt in various, ingenious ways.
Why?
We hide and shift our guilt because we want the effects that it offers us.
Guilt offers us the expereince of the world.
We are not guilty for wanting to experience the world.
But,
We need guilt to continue experiencing it.
We need guilt to be a valid concept.
We need guilt to be "the truth".

That is why the concept of blood sacrifice for sins works only for the salvation of our experience in the world. When we say that we need the blood of Jesus to save us from our guilt, what we are really saying is that guilt is the truth. But to Jesus, innocence is the truth. So Paul fundamentally disagrees with Jesus.

Why? I'll tell you why.

You see, the world is the experience of separation, for which we feel guilty.
But we are insanely interested in separation since the beginning of time.
When we establish guilt as the truth, we may continue the experience of separation.
Guilt *saves us* from the true experience of oneness.
So, guilt saves us from knowing ourSelf as the Son of God who is One.

In other words, there are two types of gospels of salvation, depending on what you are desiring most at the moment.

Paul desired to further his experience in the world as a separate individual to be ranked among a heirarchy with rewards for some and punishments for others. This gospel *saves us*. It saves the *many*, but not the *One*. Paul's gospel does not save the Son of God from *us*. Rather, it casts a spell which must be dispelled by the true gospel of Oneness.

The gospel of Jesus saves the Son of God from *us*, who are self-concepts within the mind of the Son of God. In fact, the whole world is a self-concept [think: immasculate conception] of the Son of God, which trades his eternal Spirit for temporal flesh. True salvation saves us from our self-concepts as we *identify with Christ* in the washing of our minds with the truth of the Spirit.

Christ!



[edit on 17-1-2009 by Christ!]