Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

reply to post by Simplynoone


Simply:

I may be wrong but I was of the impressions that the book of Luke was written about Peter. I have a Barkley commentary that comments on this fact.



Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by Simplynoone


Simply:

I may be wrong but I was of the impressions that the book of Luke was written about Peter. I have a Barkley commentary that comments on this fact.



Peace,
Grandma

You seem to be pretty desperate to deliver me up to some text. And as I told LIB recently, it's not Paul I directly have a problem with, but rather that he doesn't give the same understandings in his text, and that is what leads people away.

I can pick out any number of things I generally agree with Paul on. And even though I don't agree with him, I do not feel towards him the way you and others are trying to make it out. The problem as I have stated numerous times is when Paul is the one who is followed and is used to say what Jesus said wasn't true, or how it is meant. No different than when the people who were deciding what the "official" texts would be decided some of the things Jesus said and did didn't belong. And that is the main reason I have issues with Paul.

You have become rabid in your pursuit of me. Take a look at what you are doing please. Everything is not black and white. Because I don't agree with Paul about everything or his way of understanding does not mean that everything Paul said is wrong, and it doesn't mean anyone associated with him is wrong either. And it is absurd for you to put such absolutes on me, and while you may try to put me in such corners, don't think I will let you.

I'm sure if Paul is forgiving and was on the path of seeking that he will be understanding of my issues, and that he wouldn't hold a grudge on me. And vice versa. I'm also pretty sure if he said something in error, or if something got twisted that he would hope someone come along and correct it. And vice versa.


When I talked about and defended Jesus against non-believers, you loved me. When I start talking about errors made, don't go along with your traditions such as the bible being the only holy word of god, and so on. You show hatred for me.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Simply:

Yes, I too have found some truth in the Gnostic Texts. However, I am like you, I do have some trouble with some of the texts. One needs to read them with a discerning spirit.



Peace,
Grandma

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

Simply:

I may be wrong but I was of the impressions that the book of Luke was written about Peter. I have a Barkley commentary that comments on this fact.
Peace,
Grandma

The Gospel of Luke began as a legal brief to a Roman official, Theophilus. Many believe that it was intended to bolster the defense of Paul in a trial to be brought before Emperor Nero himself. For this reason, beyond telling the story of Christ, the Gospel of Luke stresses that Jesus had been acquited by Roman Authorities (specifically Pontius Pilot) of any political crimes.

Luke was a doctor Paul probably met in Phillipi. Luke and Mark were followers of Paul and worked closely in helping to spread the gospel. When Paul was imprisoned in Rome, Luke took it upon himself to spend two years researching the life of Christ and the acts of the early apostles (he is also the assumed author of Acts).

After the trial and martyrdom of Paul, Luke revised the legal brief incorporating work from Matthew and the sayings of Jesus. He wanted to create a record of the life of Christ and of the history of the early church.

Interestingly the Gospel of Luke contains stories found nowhere else in the bible; the story of Zachariah's vision that presaged the coming of John the Babtist, the story of the angels and shepherds at the birth of Jesus, Jesus in the Temple when he was a child, as well as the parables of the Lost Son and the Good Samaritan. There is much that is original in Luke and much food for contemplation and meditation.

The Gospel of Luke is also famous for its emphasis on the role of women in the ministry of Jesus. So it might be a good gospel for study by women's groups.

Since it was originally written as a Legal brief, this gospel takes some pains to present the historical case for Christ, it is an excellent study for for those seeking the human as well as spiritual side of Christ.
www.biblestudyinfo.com...

reply to post by badmedia


I show no hatred for anyone ...I dont get where you are getting that ..
I could say the same for you ....this is not personal so stop taking it as such ..

You mentioned that you take the first four gospels as TRUTH and yet Luke was one of Pauls closests companions ...and he spoke no ill of him ..and in fact recieved him as a brother in Christ ...Now I ask you ...If Paul was a false teacher etc ...And Luke speaks highly of him ..DEFENDING HIM...then why would you not consider Luke a false teacher as well ..That is what you say about us who are defending Paul ...Luke DEFENDED PAUL .....we are defending Paul too ...Shouldnt he be rebuked by you as well ?And shouldnt his writings be considered false teachings too then ?

And may I remind you what YOU SAID ..you brought up the TEXTS of which you said you take them seriously ..
[It also mentions that only 5 gnostic books made it into the official version of the bible. The 4 gospels and revelations. Which just so happen to be the 5 books I actively follow and defend. The 5 books that bring me deeper understandings. The 5 books I take very seriously]

In those five books ..NOT ONCE was PAUL MENTIONED as a false teacher or preacher etc ..In fact JUST THE OPPOSITE >...he was regarded as ONE OF THE BRETHREN .....



[edit on 16-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by badmedia


Hi,

Of course, I think we are in agreement that the RCC is the first beast. But that wound has been healed, and we can look in our own country to see it.

This has been quite a thought provoking comment. While I mainly perceive the book of Revelation is about the spiritual transformation process, I won't limit it to be just that either.

So, like I said, that is quite a thought provoking comment. Mind taking a few minutes to tell me how you see that the first beast's wound is healed?

I simply find the gnostics like L.I.B. and in that movie to be more inline with the truth I learned.

Why... thank you.

We may never agree on Paul, but perhaps none of us can agree with another in total.

For those who consider Paul to be a brother in Christ, it is seen that using Paul's name to represent idol worship is to be involved in the activities of whom the "accuser of our brethren" is. I've seen you say that you use his name as a symbol, and yet at the same time it seems that you are against symbols?

I just don't like seeing you perceived as an agent of Satan.

[You have become rabid in your pursuit of me]

I am rabid when it comes to THE TRUTH ..and you have told untruths >.
accusing PAUL (a fellow brother in Christ of whom ALL THE APOSTLES defended and did not send him away as a false prophet but in fact sent him off to DEFEND THE FAITH and the word of God of which he was called to give to the GENTILES) ................you accused him of being a LIAR and a False teacher .

Now if that is so BACK IT UP ....because every book you say you believe as truth ...SPEAKS OTHERWISE and shows you to be a false teacher not Paul..and the false accuser of a fellow brethen of the apostles ..who is Paul .......

And as I have shown even the Gnostic texts confirms the things that PAUL SAID in his epistles .as TRUTHS............


You said
[I'm also pretty sure if he said something in error, or if something got twisted that he would hope someone come along and correct it. And vice versa.]

That is exactly what we are trying to do .....but you will have none of it ..
If you would read the word (even the first five books you said are truth)
You would see for yourself ...that you are in error .....


Ok sorry Mods ......I edited it ...

[edit on 16-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

AHEM

If we could tone down the invective a notch, that would be great. Differences of opinion do not warrant insult here at ATS. We may believe someone is mistaken, we may just have a different perspective. That doesn't make the other person a liar, or inherently bad.

Thanks and please let's continue the discussion in a courteous manner.

Sorry ...your right liar was not the word I should have used ..I edited it ...
My point was he was calling Paul a liar ...and he is the one in error not Paul .

Once again I apologize ...

reply to post by Simplynoone


For a few days now I have been thinking about what Jesus said:

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:31-32

While I think it is somewhat blasphemous of the Holy Spirit to say that God cannot effect change in people through any of the apostle's teachings, it concerns me that those who do engage in this activity are perceived as an agent of Satan, whom is the accuser of the brethren.

And, on top of that we get the evidence in some of those who buy into this are led into character virtues (as was shown in that deleted post for example) that are much less than the God of compassionate wisdom that I know.

My point is that Jesus said all manner of sin will be forgiven except that one. I have experienced both hands of God, and I know that whichever hand a person finds themselves in at any particular moment it is for the purpose of eventually bringing them into the heart of our Father.

Sometimes we just have to leave people to God and practice the difficult task of knocking the sand off our feet and find ground that can be shared/agreed upon.

reply to post by Simplynoone



I just saw this thread today for the first time and have a lot more to read but from what I read so far I am very impressed by your extremely well-documented posts. Thru divine inspiration, Paul left us with a kind of self-help text, on how to see ourselves thru Christ and to continue striving to live as Christ would want us to. I can picture Paul in prayer and meditation, receiving the knowledge that Christ wanted given to us.

Good thread!

Originally posted by badmedia
You have become rabid in your pursuit of me. Take a look at what you are doing please. Everything is not black and white. Because I don't agree with Paul about everything or his way of understanding does not mean that everything Paul said is wrong, and it doesn't mean anyone associated with him is wrong either.

Badmedia.. You are doing well in speaking about Paul and you sound like you are letting their words put you under guilt. It was happening to me as well and our Father said "NO!" to the feelings of doubt and that we are to speak up against this. He even showed me that Paul is making war against us, the children of G.d. It is in Romans. I am going to one more time repost this very clearly concerning Habakkuk. To those who can hear, you will hear. To those who cannot.. this is the fault of your own pride.

The following is directed to all those who are buying into the Paul message:

I have come to be in awe of how G.d works when I read Habakkuk 1. Of course, as I came to realize, thanks to the Paul followers, that jealousy is what is keeping you all blind, no doubt you are missing this amazing work. I can point it out and I am sure that it will escape you. However, I would love it if one day I caught you in non defensive mode.. and being optimistic, this may be it.

Here it is:
Habakkuk 1: 5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

I am about to tell you this wonder.

This prophecy was written long before Paul, correct? And you, as well as most, just accept the words in front of you as regarding something in the past, yes?
However.. I contend that this is not referring to a time past and the reason it has not been seen can be found clearly in chapter 2.

2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

NOTE: AT THE END IT SHALL SPEAK AND NOT LIE!

See, I feel absolutely confident in my Father who heard my cries and He has taken away his left arm of judgment that was my shame to sit me on His right hand (as well as some others) and teach me (us) personally. I speak the truth.

He has shown us something amazing, but so as not to be responsible for putting these pearls in front of you and unintentionally tripping you, if you feel upset by what I show you, please, make sure that your anger is directed at me if you cannot see fit to search yourself.. but please don't direct it toward this Word that I am showing you. You will see that I do not lie though it will depend on your heart whether you see it now or not. If you see it now, you will be amazed by His brilliance.

If you do not see it, then I will know to wipe my hands clean and leave you to follow the path you choose.

Here is the wonder of the clear wake up call that we were given before Paul spewed his lies and sealed until now. I will show it one last time.

4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

(: )

I have come to be in awe of how G.d works when I read Habakkuk 1. Of course, as I came to realize thanks to the Paul followers that jealousy is what is keeping you all blind, no doubt you are missing this amazing work. I can point it out and I am sure that it will escape you. However, I would love it if one day I caught you in non defensive mode.. and being optimistic, this may be it.

Here it is:

5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

I am about to tell you this wonder.

This prophecy was written long before Paul, correct? And you, as well as most, just accept the words in front of you as regarding something in the past, yes?
However.. I contend that this is not referring to a time past and the reason it has not been seen can be found clearly in chapter 2.

2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

See, I feel absolutely confident in my Father who heard my cries and He has taken away his left arm of judgment that was my shame to sit me on His right hand (as well as some others) and teach me (us) personally. I speak the truth.

He has shown us something amazing, but so as not to be responsible for putting these pearls in front of you and unintentionally tripping you, if you feel upset by what I show you, please, make sure that your anger is directed at me if you cannot see fit to search yourself.. but please don't direct it toward the Jewish people and most definitely not toward this Word that I am showing you. You will see that I do not lie though it will depend on your heart whether you see it now or not. If you see it now, you will be amazed by my Father's brilliance.


If you do not see it, then I will know to wipe my hands clean and leave you to follow the path you choose.

Here is the wonder of the clear wake up call that we were given before Paul and sealed until now. I will show it one last time.


4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

(: )

Originally posted by Bombeni
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

I just saw this thread today for the first time and have a lot more to read but from what I read so far I am very impressed by your extremely well-documented posts. Thru divine inspiration, Paul left us with a kind of self-help text, on how to see ourselves thru Christ and to continue striving to live as Christ would want us to. I can picture Paul in prayer and meditation, receiving the knowledge that Christ wanted given to us.

Good thread!

That is why Paul is such an inspiration to me ...Jesus Christ was SINLESS .
Even in his body he did no sin ...We have all sinned and fall short ...
We strive to be like Christ who had no sin ...the thing is we do have sin and have sinned and are in a wretched state ....So was Paul ....
Which is the one thing that I take from someone like Paul ..he was LIKE US>>(where Christ was not ) Christ was in the body like us...but his spirit was unlike ours ..Paul was alot like us ..we have killed (at least in word and even deed) ...we have rebelled against God (as he did) ..we have thorns in the flesh as he did ......he was of the world and followed the ways of the world (just like we have ) ...etc etc ....

I personally cannot live up to being like Christ .,..because he had no FLAWS and committed no sin ...But Paul did ...And Paul was CALLED BY GOD .and PAUL WAS BLESSED BY GOD ...he showed me that we can be like Christ ...
He did the works of the father even after he was a VERY LOST SOUL >.(Murderer even ) ......he did a complete 180 ...(shows that we can too)
He is a perfect EXAMPLE of how ANYONE CAN COME TO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and through the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD ..Become a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST >.like Paul did ...

I just dont see how Paul would not be a perfect example to everyone how that ANYONE can change to be like CHRIST once they believe and are filled with the HOLY SPIRIT .....and do the will of the father ...(which Jesus,Paul and all the apostles did) .................

Is Paul my saviour ...ABSOLUTELY NOT ..
Is he a GOD ...ABSOLUTELY NOT
Is he above Jesus Christ or any of the apostles or any of us ABSOLUTELY NOT
he is as we are ...and we are as he is ....and he is as Christ is (After he met Christ on the road to Damascus ) ..........and Paul shows that we too can be changed as Paul was and do the will of the father and do the same works that Paul did etc etc ..............
He is an example for me ...nothing more ..nothing less ..
His life gives me hope ..because he lived it alot like we did and the LORD FORGAVE him for it ..and not only forgave him but changed him completely on the inside of his wicked heart and USED HIM FOR HIS PURPOSES ...bringing OTHERS TO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ...

reply to post by Simplynoone


Yeah, those letters, what mortal writing can ever compare?

I want to think these people who study the Word in an attempt to use the Word against God Himself, are in reality just a stone's throw from receiving Christ as Savior. That's what I hope anyway.




[edit on 16-1-2009 by Bombeni]

Originally posted by Bombeni
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

Yeah, those letters, what mortal writing can ever compare?

I want to think these people who study the Word in an attempt to use the Word against God Himself, are in reality just a stone's throw from receiving Christ as Savior. But my mind also tells me that you can harden your heart for so long, and at such depths, that it will never be opened again.

But Christ was NOT Jesus (the man).. Christ was the Son of man aka the Word that spoke through Jesus.. and not just through Jesus, but others as well.

Jesus did NOT stand with Daniel and the other two in the fire, the Son of man (aka the Word, aka the LORD) did. It was a metaphor to tell us that when we saw the Son of man (those who He is speaking to now), we would know that the seal on the prophecies had been opened and that we would NOT be left to stand alone.

Jesus was a mouth in which the Son of Man (the Word) spoke through.. if I were told with 100% proof right now that Jesus (the man) never existed, it would not change what I KNOW to be true. *that* is standing firmly in the hands of the Father. It is unshakeable because my trust is NOT in a man, it is in my Saviour.. the Father! The only Saviour there was, is, and will be.

Answer honestly: If someone handed you 100% proof that Jesus (the man) never existed and walked this earth and that he never died and rose again.. would your faith still exist? What then?

reply to post by justamomma


Here is what I believe:

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth
and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only-begotten Son of God,
begotten of His Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.
He suffered and was buried.
And the third day He rose again
according to the Scriptures
and ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of the Father.
And He will come again with glory to judge
both the living and the dead,
whose kingdom will have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord and giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshiped and glorified,
who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins,
and I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Other than that, I just don't get real excited about things. I know that my good and merciful God sent His only Beloved Son to die for me, as a ransom for my undeserving self. The things I don't understand? God covered that for me years ago when I read this:

For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

God covered everything, whatever I need to know will be revealed to me when the time is right.

Peace.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
This has been quite a thought provoking comment. While I mainly perceive the book of Revelation is about the spiritual transformation process, I won't limit it to be just that either.

So, like I said, that is quite a thought provoking comment. Mind taking a few minutes to tell me how you see that the first beast's wound is healed?

I simply find the gnostics like L.I.B. and in that movie to be more inline with the truth I learned.

Why... thank you.

We may never agree on Paul, but perhaps none of us can agree with another in total.

For those who consider Paul to be a brother in Christ, it is seen that using Paul's name to represent idol worship is to be involved in the activities of whom the "accuser of our brethren" is. I've seen you say that you use his name as a symbol, and yet at the same time it seems that you are against symbols?

I just don't like seeing you perceived as an agent of Satan.

The only prophecies that should be heeded right now are those that spoken by the Son of man (aka the Word).

We are warned about the conspiracy in the NT by the TRUE prophets.. the ones whose words have been opened.

Ezekiel 22
24 Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.

25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

That is why I say.. the Law of G.d is of the utmost important to look at and see.. it is a mirror in which you will find the true salvation of our Father.

The Laws of G.d melt away the deception that is smothering this land.

Ezekiel 22
9In thee are men that carry tales to shed blood: and in thee they eat upon the mountains: in the midst of thee they commit lewdness.

10In thee have they discovered their fathers' nakedness: in thee have they humbled her that was set apart for pollution.

11And one hath committed abomination with his neighbour's wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in law; and another in thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter.

12In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord GOD.

13Behold, therefore I have smitten mine hand at thy dishonest gain which thou hast made, and at thy blood which hath been in the midst of thee.

14Can thine heart endure, or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the LORD have spoken it, and will do it.

15And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee.

16And thou shalt take thine inheritance in thyself in the sight of the heathen, and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.

We are trying to instruct you and warn you..

Nehemiah 4
7 But it came to pass, that when Sanballat, and Tobiah, and the Arabians, and the Ammonites, and the Ashdodites, heard that the walls of Jerusalem were made up, and that the breaches began to be stopped, then they were very wroth,

8 And conspired all of them together to come and to fight against Jerusalem, and to hinder it.

9 Nevertheless we made our prayer unto our God, and set a watch against them day and night, because of them.

PAY ATTENTION:

Daniel 11
25And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

reply to post by Bombeni


So be it. Choose the path that you think is right. The path that is spoken of in the content you posted is not the narrow path and it lies. G.d CLEARLY said who the only begotten Son is and it is not a man name Jesus.

If you search.. which is what G.d has commanded of you, you will see.

Hosea 4: 6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Make your choice and it falls on you. You are given free will. I can only instruct you toward the truth, but you ultimately will be responsible for your lack of knowledge.

Job 33: 3
My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly.

Job 34: 2
Hear my words, O ye wise men; and give ear unto me, ye that have knowledge.

Job 15: 2
Should a wise man utter vain knowledge, and fill his belly with the east wind? (the hellenistic (paganistic) views of babylon that is taught by paul)

Job 21: 14
Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.

Job is the story of us!! Do you not see this?? How will it end is up to you. I chose the way of salvation and G.d opened the floodgates of His infinite wealth to me.

I want nothing more than that for the rest of you.. both for you, but mostly for the Father who DESERVES to be sought for as though one searches for treasures. You work for things in the shadow of the Death, but the true riches you do not seek.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.


I, unlike Paul, have not offered you anything but instruction. I can not. I don't offer eternal life.. I don't offer gifts... I don't offer anything but instruction. Why do despise instruction? I tell you to search and you say you have found. What have you found?

Proverbs 15:
7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.

I respect the free will of those who trust in the words of men. But I speak for those who can hear.