Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by justamomma
I was the one who accused Paul. I actually have more confidence now than I did before. I really have been struggling with... okay.. why am I seeing this and is there anything more clear, G.d?

As it says in the book of the Tanakh that prophesies the deceit of Paul though the book has just been opened to understanding... [edit on 14-1-2009 by justamomma]

I can't find Paul's name mentioned in the OT.
Can you show me where the name Paul appears as a false teacher.
You are reading things in from your own head.

Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Originally posted by justamomma
I was the one who accused Paul. I actually have more confidence now than I did before. I really have been struggling with... okay.. why am I seeing this and is there anything more clear, G.d?

As it says in the book of the Tanakh that prophesies the deceit of Paul though the book has just been opened to understanding... "Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you. " habakkuk 1: 5

Oh my? Habakkuk? Oh, Dear have you ever perverted that Scripture!!

Now lets analyse it rationally using proper hermeneutic principals:

First, all We know about this prophet is found in this book. He lived and prophesied in the years prior to the total collapse of the Assyrian Empire at the hands of the Babylonians (605 B.C.) down to the fall of Jerusalem (586 B.C.) to the Babylonians. We really don't know how long before 605 B.C. he prophesied or for how long after 586 B.C. The first captives from Judah were taken along with Daniel to Babylon in 605 B.C., 19 years before the final destruction of Jerusalem. Habakkuk has this in mind.

We need to review Habakkuk's "How loooooong!?" message (Habakkuk 1:1-4) in order to get the context right.
1 The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
2 O LORD, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

Now we look at the Hebrew word for "burden" in verse 1 is "massa." It is used to describe the load a work animal carries, but it is also used in a spiritual sense, as here, to describe a heavy oracle. It might be easy to misunderstand these verses. The injustices of these verses do not refer to the Babylonian injustices to Judah, but rather to the Jewish people themselves demonstrating wickedness toward one another. After King Josiah's death, there was not another good king over Judah. For the purposes of this discussion, note the succession of the last five kings of Judah:
Josiah 640 - 609 (the last good king)
Jehoahaz 609 - 609 (Josiah’s third son, usually called Shallum - bad king - 3-month rule)
Jehoiakim 609 - 598 (Josiah's second son - puppet king who never really had a chance)
Jehoiachin 598 - 597 (Jehoiakim's son - puppet king who never really had a chance)
Zedekiah 597 - 586 (Josiah's son - his original name was Mattaniah - puppet king up to the fall of Jerusalem)
From 609 until Jerusalem's fall to the Babylonians, Judah had all wicked kings - kings who would not serve the one true God. Therefore, one must understand that Habakkuk is asking God, "How long will you tolerate the injustices that exist among the Jews in Judah before you judge their actions?"

Now we come to where God answers (Habakkuk 1:5-11)
5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.
9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
10 And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.
11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.

It would appear from this passage that this first vision from God takes place before the fall of the Assyrians to the Babylonians - prior to 605 B.C. Reference is made to the coming of the Babylonian Empire being raised up by God ("Chaldeans" is a direct reference to the people of Babylon). That's a heavy concept! God takes credit for the Babylonians. God is basically saying to His people "You're just not going to believe what I am about to tell you!" Then God tells Habakkuk about the Babylonians who will be raised up to conquer the Assyrians and punish Judah. As a matter of fact, the Apostle Paul found verse 5 amusing as well; he quotes it to his Jewish audience in Acts 13:41 (see notes).

So, this is not a Prophesy concerning the Time of Jesus, Paul, or the Christian Church.

4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

I feel like I am in a horror movie right now. I am showing them and they just laugh. They will say the above applies to them, but the thing is, He is here NOW... and they are not trembling at his Word.

There will come a time soon that these things will happen and those who laughed will remember that I tried my hardest to warn.. to help them to see. They will remember and they will hate me even more. I am not one for prophesying, but these things are written by another.. not by me. and yet they laugh at me. What scares me for them is that they are not laughing at me.. my feelings are not hurt. I am angry though because you laugh at what G.d did. He tried to show you and you mock His brilliancy. I don't understand.

I should just wipe my hands of some of you like the others have.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by justamomma

 

Hi, justamomma! Thank you for inviting me back!! I think?

BY the way, the chaldeans (spoken of in chapter 1) are the babylonians of the hellenistic belief... can you guess who was hellenistic? he incorporates the beliefs (pagan) all throughout his work. of course, though it be told... you will not believe

Yes, of course you mentioned my favorite person!

And yes he did!

I will await your return, and check back.

Yes.. hello! He who laughs last laughs the best I guess. I may have butchered that, but the point is made. *sighs*

reply to post by John Matrix


Yes, I know that you *think* this happened already.. that was the point. Of course.. the clue that it HADN'T would be that "Paul" was directly referred to.

Daniel also talks about the forecasted plans that were underway while they were in babylonian captivity. They wrote these things just like the first 5 books to warn people. When these things happen, you will know... when the time comes, the books will be opened.

HELLO!! Habakkuk 2 says... wait for it, it will come.. at the end, the prophesy will open. ARe you *that* bound by their sorcery or are you hoping to gain something from it? Eternal life is not offered to the vain ya know. I am just floored.

*officially wipes hands of JM* I will not reply to you anymore. I should have taken the hint when Badmedia did it because his patience is amazing considering the crap I put him through. I am following suit now. Good luck with your Paul worship!

reply to post by justamomma


I just left you a U2U.

Hey, let's start a new thread using everyone's experiences that are of a divine nature! Where the Bible is not included, as this separates everyone. Perhaps on BTS?

Originally posted by justamomma

I feel like I am in a horror movie right now. I am showing them and they just laugh. They will say the above applies to them, but the thing is, He is here NOW... and they are not trembling at his Word.

There will come a time soon that these things will happen and those who laughed will remember that I tried my hardest to warn.. to help them to see. They will remember and they will hate me even more. I am not one for prophesying, but these things are written by another.. not by me. and yet they laugh at me. What scares me for them is that they are not laughing at me.. my feelings are not hurt. I am angry though because you laugh at what G.d did. He tried to show you and you mock His brilliancy. I don't understand.

I should just wipe my hands of some of you like the others have.

You just don't get it. Sure we can learn lessons from OT Prophecies from Prophets such as Habakkuk. But you need to keep in mind the who, what, when, where, why, principals of Interpretation(hermeneutics).

It's you who are turning away from the Truth, hardening your heart, being stubborn and abstinent, maligning the Apostles, rejecting God's word in the NT, rejecting the New Cov., Holding to the Old Cov. rejecting the Spiritual Rebirth, exchanging the truth for a lie.....it's you, you YOU that won't listen to the voice of the Lord.

matrixprophet: I hope you don't lead her astray by kissing butt to win some popularity and pump up your ego....that would be very wrong.



[edit on 14-1-2009 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by justamomma

 

I just left you a U2U.

Hey, let's start a new thread using everyone's experiences that are of a divine nature! Where the Bible is not included, as this separates everyone. Perhaps on BTS?

That might be a very good idea for you. I sense that you know little about the topic. The struggle may do you some good....God willing.

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by John Matrix

 

HELLO!! Habakkuk 2 says... wait for it, it will come.. at the end, the prophesy will open. ARe you *that* bound by their sorcery or are you hoping to gain something from it? Eternal life is not offered to the vain ya know. I am just floored.

Oh, so your Habakkuk 1:5 interpretation got a good beating and now you throw out Habakkuk 2, then tell me you won't respond to me anymore.

Nice....real nice. I guess this means you don't want me to give you the proper interpretation of Habakkuk 2?

Ok!

[edit on 14-1-2009 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by John Matrix

 

*officially wipes hands of JM* I will not reply to you anymore. I should have taken the hint when Badmedia did it because his patience is amazing considering the crap I put him through. I am following suit now. Good luck with your Paul worship!

Well...Patience for the believer is a Divine Virtue...and I have tons left...I was hoping we might make this the longest running thread in the history of ATS.

I have Lots of stamina....the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak!

[edit on 14-1-2009 by John Matrix]

[edit on 15-1-2009 by justamomma]

Google Video Link

I found this to be insightful.. myself I prefer the gnostic scriptures..

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy

Google Video Link

I found this to be insightful.. myself I prefer the gnostic scriptures..

Great movie, I enjoyed it alot. I thought it was great how it pointed out how when people seek the truth, the same information seems to surface, even without the texts being passed down from age to age. Almost out of no where. Which is exactly what also happened to me.

I remember when I first started speaking about the knowledge I gained. I didn't at all realize that the knowledge was taught by Jesus at the time. And someone made the comment to me - I had no idea you were so esoteric. I had no idea what that word meant at the time, I thought they were insulting me, calling me crazy or something at first lol.

Always brings a smile to my face when I see others who get it Thanks for the smile.

reply to post by PuRe EnErGy


I've watched that movie 3 times now, and I've linked to it in another thread. It still blows my mind with how much of it resonates with me, and how I came to the same understandings, and then conclusions about the bible. Absolutely mind blowing.

It mentions Paul being the public version of it. I can totally see that. It mentions it is more understandable, and is more about telling people how to act, and I also agree with that. However, it lacked the esoteric knowledge that is contained within the gnostic books, and it was from the esoteric knowledge that I was able to see the father and truth in the bible. This is right in line with what I had been thinking. It has been said that I didn't understand Paul, and I didn't think that was true, I think people just don't understand Jesus. And this goes right in line with that.

It also mentions that only 5 gnostic books made it into the official version of the bible. The 4 gospels and revelations. Which just so happen to be the 5 books I actively follow and defend. The 5 books that bring me deeper understandings. The 5 books I take very seriously.

It talks about even the things Jesus says being deemed heretical. And here I find that when I talk about things not included I am also called heretical and told I am wrong based on Paul.

For me to come to these same conclusions independently can't be mere coincidence. Especially when I first came to these conclusions I couldn't have felt more alone in the world. I felt as if it was something nobody understood. Like "what if you knew the most important thing in the world, and nobody would believe you". And to see it in others in such a precise and exact way just makes me so happy.

For the past week or so, every day I have been asking - Please show me where I am wrong if I am wrong about Paul(and I'm not talking about posting on the forums asking). Every day I asked. And no answer came, ans so I continued to be patient and wait and kept on asking and seeking. And that video combined with the dream I had last night just pretty much confirms for me that I am on the right path by separating these things and seeing the books of Paul for what they are.

Thanks again for the movie, great timing. I'd seen the same things hinted at before, but not in such a direct manner and so precise.



[edit on 16-1-2009 by badmedia]

Ok badmedia I was reading the Gnostic texts ...and you have said over and over again that we should not worship Jesus ..And yet look what I found in your Gnostic writeings ..

Peter responded and said to him, "We want you to do us a favor, because we are strangers, and take us to the house of Lithargoel before evening comes." He said, "In uprightness of heart I will show it to you. But I am amazed at how you knew this good man. For he does not reveal himself to every man, because he himself is the son of a great king. Rest yourselves a little so that I may go and heal this man and come (back)." He hurried and came (back) quickly.

He said to Peter, "Peter!" And Peter was frightened, for how did he know that his name was Peter? Peter responded to the Savior, "How do you know me, for you called my name?" Lithargoel answered, "I want to ask you who gave the name Peter to you?" He said to him, "It was Jesus Christ, the son of the living God. He gave this name to me." He answered and said, "It is I! Recognize me, Peter." He loosened the garment, which clothed him - the one into which he had changed himself because of us - revealing to us in truth that it was he.

We prostrated ourselves on the ground and worshipped him. We comprised eleven disciples. He stretched forth his hand and caused us to stand. We spoke with him humbly. Our heads were bowed down in unworthiness as we said, "What you wish we will do. But give us power to do what you wish at all times."

He gave them the unguent box and the pouch that was in the hand of the young disciple. He commanded them like this, saying, "Go into the city from which you came, which is called Habitation. Continue in endurance as you teach all those who have believed in my name, because I have endured in hardships of the faith. I will give you your reward. To the poor of that city give what they need in order to live until I give them what is better, which I told you that I will give you for nothing."
www.gnosis.org...

Hmmm ....even in your Gnostic texts the apostles PROSTATED THEMSELVES and WORSHIPPED JESUS CHRIST ...did they not ? Why would they do that ? PETER also CALLS HIM SAVIOUR ....

Wait there is more
The Lord answered and said, "O Peter, it was necessary that you understand the parable that I told you! Do you not understand that my NAME, which you TEACH, surpasses all riches, and the wisdom of God surpasses gold, and silver and precious stone(s)?"

He gave them the pouch of medicine and said, "Heal all the sick of the city who believe in my name." Peter was afraid to reply to him for the second time. He signaled to the one who was beside him, who was John: "You talk this time." John answered and said, "Lord, before you we are afraid to say many words. But it is you who asks us to practice this skill. We have not been taught to be physicians. How then will we know how to heal bodies as you have told us?"

He answered them, "Rightly have you spoken, John, for I know that the physicians of this world heal what belongs to the world. The physicians of souls, however, heal the heart. Heal the bodies first, therefore, so that through the real powers of healing for their bodies, without medicine of the world, they may believe in you, that you have power to heal the illnesses of the heart also.

"The rich men of the city, however, those who did not see fit even to acknowledge me, but who reveled in their wealth and pride - with such as these, therefore, do not dine in their houses nor be friends with them, lest their partiality influence you. For many in the churches have shown partiality to the rich, because they also are sinful, and they give occasion for others to sin. But judge them with uprightness, so that your ministry may be glorified, and that my name also, may be glorified in the churches." The disciples answered and said, "Yes, truly this is what is fitting to do."

They prostrated themselves on the ground and worshipped him. He caused them to stand and departed from them in peace. Amen.


[edit on 16-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Simplynoone


I am not a gnostic christian, or of any religion. I am a seeker of truth. I simply find the gnostics like L.I.B. and in that movie to be more inline with the truth I learned.

I am not familiar with that text, and haven't been given the keys to understanding that particular part, and I don't see them in what you've quoted. Keys for example are like when Jesus says he is the truth, the light and the way, and then when he says follow him he is saying follow the truth and this is the way. When I see Jesus say about doing something in "his name", I see that as meaning for doing things in the name of truth.

Rather, it belongs to the Father and the Son, because they are both a single
www.gnosis.org...


Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image. The bridal chamber and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. Not only must those who produce the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, do so, but have produced them for you. If one does not acquire them, the name ("Christian") will also be taken from him. But one receives the unction of the [...] of the power of the cross. This power the apostles called "the right and the left." For this person is no longer a Christian but a Christ.

The Lord did everything in a mystery, a baptism and a chrism and a eucharist and a redemption and a bridal chamber. [...] he said, "I came to make the things below like the things above, and the things outside like those inside. I came to unite them in the place." [...] here through types [...]and images.
(sounds catholic to me )
www.gnosis.org...

The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.
www.gnosis.org...

you said
[It also mentions that only 5 gnostic books made it into the official version of the bible. The 4 gospels and revelations. Which just so happen to be the 5 books I actively follow and defend. The 5 books that bring me deeper understandings. The 5 books I take very seriously.]

Which five books are you talking about ?
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John


Remember you would have to leave out Luke and Acts because Luke was CLOSE TO PAUL and wrote about Paul and accepted Paul as a brother..(your supposed false prophet)


[edit on 16-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

[edit on 16-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

He appeared, informing them of the Father, the illimitable one. He inspired them with that which is in the mind, while doing his will. Many received the light and turned towards him. But material men were alien to him and did not discern his appearance nor recognize him.
For he came in the likeness of flesh and nothing blocked his way because it was incorruptible and unrestrainable. Moreover, while saying new things, speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he proclaimed the faultless word. Light spoke through his mouth, and his voice brought forth life. He gave them thought and understanding and mercy and salvation and the Spirit of strength derived from the limitlessness of the Father and sweetness. He caused punishments and scourgings to cease, for it was they which caused many in need of mercy to astray from him in error and in chains - and he mightily destroyed them and derided them with knowledge. He became a path for those who went astray and knowledge to those who were ignorant, a discovery for those who sought, and a support for those who tremble, a purity for those who were defiled.

He is the shepherd who left behind the ninety-nine sheep which had not strayed and went in search of that one which was lost. He rejoiced when he had found it. For ninety-nine is a number of the left hand, which holds it. The moment he finds the one, however, the whole number is transferred to the right hand. Thus it is with him who lacks the one, that is, the entire right hand which attracts that in which it is deficient, seizes it from the left side and transfers it to the right. In this way, then, the number becomes one hundred. This number signifies the Father.
www.gnosis.org...

Hmmm ....seems there is truth even in these Gnostic texts ..(not saying I agree with all of what is written in them..because there are some things written that is CONTRARY to the word )

And the name of the Father is the Son. It is he who, in the beginning, gave a name to him who came forth from him - he is the same one - and he begat him for a son. He gave him his name which belonged to him - he, the Father, who possesses everything which exists around him. He possess the name; he has the son. It is possible for them to see him. The name, however, is invisible, for it alone is the mystery of the invisible about to come to ears completely filled with it through the Father`s agency. Moreover, as for the Father, his name is not pronounced, but it is revealed through a son. Thus, then, the name is great.

Who, then, has been able to pronounce a name for him, this great name, except him alone to whom the name belongs and the sons of the name in whom the name of the Father is at rest, and who themselves in turn are at rest in his name, since the Father has no beginning? It is he alone who engendered it for himself as a name in the beginning before he had created the Aeons, that the name of the Father should be over their heads as a lord - that is, the real name, which is secure by his authority and by his perfect power. For the name is not drawn from lexicons nor is his name derived from common name-giving, But it is invisible. He gave a name to himself alone, because he alone saw it and because he alone was capable of giving himself a name. For he who does not exist has no name. For what name would one give him who did not exist? Nevertheless, he who exists also with his name and he alone knows it, and to him alone the Father gave a name. The Son is his name. He did not, therefore, keep it secretly hidden, but the son came into existence. He himself gave a name to him. The name, then, is that of the Father, just as the name of the Father is the Son. For otherwise, where would compassion find a name - outside of the Father? But someone will probably say to his companion, "Who would give a name to someone who existed before himself, as if, indeed, children did not receive their name from one of those who gave them birth?"

Above all, then, it is fitting for us to think this point over: What is the name? It is the real name. It is, indeed, the name which came from the Father, for it is he who owns the name. He did not, you see, get the name on loan, as in the case of others because of the form in which each one of them is going to be created. This, then, is the authoritative name. There is no one else to whom he has given it. But it remained unnamed, unuttered, `till the moment when he, who is perfect, pronounced it himself; and it was he alone who was able to pronounce his name and to see it. When it pleased him, then, that his son should be his pronounced name and when he gave this name to him, he who has come from the depth spoke of his secrets, because he knew that the Father was absolute goodness. For this reason, indeed, he sent this particular one in order that he might speak concerning the place and his place of rest from which he had come forth, and that he might glorify the Pleroma, the greatness of his name and the sweetness of his Father.
www.gnosis.org...

Hmm and what name might that be ..HIS SON ..JESUS >..hmmmm interesting stuff in here no doubt about it .....