Scores killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza

reply to post by mybigunit


Well, your opinion is yours, and I respect that. But that's what makes for horse races.

I support the Israelis in their fight. I guess I just have a healthy respect for a small country who has taken on all comers very successfully.

Impossibly, almost.

One could almost say, Providence.

They have a home. We support their right to have their home, just like we support other good friends.

And the Israeli electronics industry is top notch. We in the US benefit greatly with what they share. It's more like a partnership, not a handout.

Originally posted by Majorion

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by mybigunit
So when someone tell me that either Israel or the US is killing civilians, my response would always be: I hope to hell they are!

I rest my case. You and your fellow Zionist compatriots here are admittedly without compassion or remorse for the many needless deaths you preach. Islam isn't the extremist religion, Muslims don't believe that they are God's chosen people as the Jews do whereby everyone else is inferior.

[edit on 27/12/08 by Majorion]

How does one person's response become an admission on behalf of "fellow Zionist compatriots"(your words)?
Why would you lump all of us together based on one persons view and say we are without compassion or remorse?
I find your comment to be irresponsible and absurd.

[edit on 27-12-2008 by John Matrix]

reply to post by dooper


You are right that does make for good horse races I do want to point this out my feelings that I have on our Israeli policy is not Israel alone. I feel Saudi Arabia TOO has way to much influence and I question their strategic value. Same with Pakistan in which we funnel billions too. They openly support terrorists and we continue to support them. So trust me my rant although it comes off as sometimes isnt as much of an anti Israel rant than it is a pro American rant. I just feel we have to reevaluate relations we have in the world. Who causes us more troubles than it is worth. That is where the debate comes.

Im all about keeping America around. I dont care about religion. I dont care PACS and special interest groups and multi nationals. Screw them all. They are not what makes America America although they have shaped our country for the past 30 years to the negative mainly. I think our American bankruptcy we will have in 2009 will be a wake up call. I think the relations reevaluations are coming whether people like it or not just because we cant afford to police the world anymore.

[edit on 27-12-2008 by mybigunit]

I see a very high amount of ignorance throughout this thread. This ignorance stems from shortsightedness and the desire to take sides in this situation.

The short and simple truth is that both sides are crazy. Both sides have done terrible and evil things. Both sides have been scarred from past events.

Let's ask some questions so that we can hopefully gain a perspective on the high level of ignorance permeating this thread.


Questions concerning the wrongdoings of the Palistinians
-Has Hamas fired rockets and mortars into Israel? Can we all agree that they have? The answer is most assuredly, yes.
-Has Hamas carried out suicide bombings in the past and specifically target Israli civillians? The answer is most assuredly, yes.
-Have Palistininas carried out attacks on Israel being fully aware of the fact that Israel would respond militarily? The answer that is undeniable is that they have!
-After WW2 were Palistinians unjustly forced from their land as a result of the UN creating the nation of Israel in the Middle East? Were the Palistinians almost viewed as "less than people" when their ownership of the land in which they lived was taken from them? The answer is yes.

Questions concerning the wrongdoings of Israel
-Has Israel cut off food supplies and medicine shipments to the Palistinian people? The answer is yes.
-Has Irsael used force against the Palistinian people? The answer is yes they have.
-Has Israel at times buldozed Palistianian housing and specifically targeted civilians in such a way as to hopefully encourage the Palistian people to flee from the Gaza strip. The answer is most definately, yes.
-Were millions of Jews slaughtered in WW2. As a result of this slaughter were many Jews frightened of the world? Were many Jews vulnerable to the deep emotional scars? Would the Israelites jump at a chance to have their own nation as a result of these scars and the fact that six million of them had just been exterminated? The answer is yes.

I'm sorry, but both sides have done terrible wrongs. Both sides have done great evil. Both sides have reasons to be scared. Both sides have reasons for retaliation.

Story time for illustrative purposes. Two drug dealers get into a quarrel over territory selling agreements. They decide to use force to solve their differences. Both are injured in a shootout and end up in the hospital. In a court of law both will be charged for the selling of drugs. No one in their right mind would take the side of either dealer. The same principle applies to this situation.

Both Israel and the Palistinians are in the wrong. Both sides have done terrible things to the other side. Both sides are guilty in one way or another.

If you are so idley taking sides in such a complex and historical situation then you need to examine yourself and ask why you are so passionately taking the side you have taken. I would argue quite fervently that if you are taking a side in this situation then you are in fact practicing ignorance.

This is where we fail as people. We take sides in the face of wrongdoing and nothing ever gets accomplished because we are so busy fighting for our side (even though they are clearly in the wrong) that we don't sit back and think of ways to reconcile. We don't step back and think of ways to forgive. We don't step back and think of ways to understand one another. We don't step back and think of ways to love each other.

My response to this situation is "God, please help us to see one another as brothers and sisters in an enormous family. God, please help us to understand the pains and emotions we are all feeling. God, please help me to love people like I want to be loved."

Conflicts never end unless someone steps up and uses the word sorry or until one side is eradicated/defeated.

reply to post by Majorion

There you go, misusing terminology. Since a Zionist seeks to establish a Jewish nation, and a Jewish nation was formed in 1948, you're terminology is 'expired.'

And since I wasn't alive in 1948, nor a Jew, that means I never was a Zionist. So how about you knock off the name-calling?

I'm happy you can rest your case. You're right. I don't care what happens to folks who shoot randomly at other folks, and get attacked in response. Guilty.

Actually, Islam is an extremist religion, and if you think not, you should do a bit more research. Believe me, you won't have to delve very deeply.

I didn't claim that the Jews were God's chosen people. Actually, God made that distinction.

You don't like it, take it up with Him.


[edit on 27-12-2008 by dooper]

Easily fixed,Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Palistinians should get rid of Hamas then there will peace and they can move forwards .The Palistinians won't, because they are not serious about peace, only about the annihilation of Israel.

reply to post by John Matrix

How does one person's response become an admission on behalf of "fellow Zionist compatriots"?

Because his admission reveals the underlying immoral nature of supporting the Israeli state. You also support them, I didn't particularly mention YOU but it seems you took it personally, I wonder why?

Why would you lump all of us together based on one persons view and say we are without compassion or remorse?

Again, because you support the extremist Israeli state.

I find your comment to be irresponsible and absurd

And I find your comments to be ignorant and offensive.

reply to post by Bugman82


Keep reading the posts. Not all posts are as you described, There is some very informative and insightful posts here. The problem happens when people don't read all the posts and step in with ill informed opinions based on their hypocritical sentimentality and personal prejudices ,rather than facts and reason....and not Pally or Arab facts either, as we already know their sources cannot be trusted.

reply to post by dooper

Actually, Islam is an extremist religion, and if you think not, you should do a bit more research.

I need not do any more research about Islam because I am a Muslim.

Believe me, you won't have to delve very deeply.

Yeah I know, googling anything to supports one's own prejudice against a particular religion(Islam) doesn't require delving deeply. Zionist media take care of that too. Glad to see you admit that you chose the easy way of doing research.

And since I wasn't alive in 1948, nor a Jew, that means I never was a Zionist. So how about you knock off the name-calling?

Well VP elect Joe Biden isn't Jewish yet he has no problem in admitting that he's a Zionist.

Contrary to the stereotype statements you make, I have never been taught to wage jihad against anyone in this world due to my religion, because contrary to stereotype belief.. jihad isn't a word that means 'fight the infidels' or 'wage war' it actually translates literally to 'to strive'.. so the word can be applied to anything.. striving to make some money, striving to learn, striving to succeed etc... this word in particular has been abused beyond belief by Muslims and Non Muslims alike. Nor have I been raised to strap explosives on myself as you suggest comes with the package of Islam, and nor have I ever met anyone who has been raised this way even though I live in Saudi Arabia which "officially" is a 100% Muslim country.

BTW, you failed to answer any of my questions when I replied to you about the pagan moon god stuff.. or was that someone else? either way I never got a response for that.

reply to post by dooper

Proto, the Jews had been moving into the land already. They didn't select the borders. They didn't choose how the land was divided.

I took a long hard look at the data on this one and the methods used by the British and the Zionist to confiscate Palistinean lands prior to Israeli Independence involve a number of different arcane laws that are too complex to give a synopsis in 4000 charachters, or less, so I will refer you to this link if you are inclined to know more about various forms of land acquisition employed prior to Israeli Independence, the mechanisms employed, and the amounts of land and regions where it changed hands.

Land Law Reviews and Changes from 1858 on

In regards to the rest of your statement all I can suggest to you is those that live by the sword typically die by it too.

reply to post by Majorion

Nonviolent huh?

So I can come to your country and open a Christian Church, teach Christianity, and it's all cool, because you're country is so tolerant, right?

reply to post by John Matrix


I would agree with you that there are some insightful ideas presented through these posts. However, the insight for me as someone who has been a strong supporter of the nation of Israel is that even though I have reasons to be sentimental towards the Israeli people due to my religious beliefs, their history, and the terrible things that have been done to them, I cannot deny the wrong things they have done. I cannot deny their inhumane actions towards Palistinians at times. I also can't deny the evils that many Palistinians have done to the Israeli people. It is just one giant mess of evils. It is one giant mess of people hating (and I never use this word lightly) each other. I cannot take sides in the midst of hate.

As much as I want to side with Israel in this current situation, I realize that I don't have to. I realize, however, that I can empathize with both sides. I realize I can dislike the actions of both sides. I also realize that trying to decide which side is more in the right or more evil is like trying to decide which drug dealer in my previous illustrative story is guilty, when both clearly are.

[edit on 28-12-2008 by Bugman82]

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Majorion

 

Nonviolent huh?

So I can come to your country and open a Christian Church, teach Christianity, and it's all cool, because you're country is so tolerant, right?

Actually there are Christians and Jews in places like Iran who live there and love it. The idea they want to kill all the Christians and Jews is laughable because if they did why wouldnt they start with the ones in their own country?

Originally posted by dooper
So I can come to your country and open a Christian Church, teach Christianity, and it's all cool, because you're country is so tolerant, right?

Interesting question. Christians treatment by the leader of the "axis of evil" Iran:

While the government guarantees the recognised Christian minorities a number of rights (production and sale of non-halal foods), guaranteed representation in parliament, special family law etc., government intrusion,[citation needed] expropriation of property,[citation needed] forced closure[citation needed] and persecution,[citation needed] particularly in the initial years after the Iranian Revolution, have all been documented.[citation needed] Most prominent has been the death of Haik Hovsepian Mehr, bishop of the Jamiat-e Rabbani, in 1994. Recently the continuing imprisonment of Hamid Pourmand a lay pastor of Jammiat-e Rabboni and the murder of Ghorban Tourani, the pastor of an independent evangelical church have created international concern.[citation needed]

The Jamiat-e Rabbani churches and the Anglican Church are both readily accepting converts from Islam[citation needed] and are subsequently growing in membership.[citation needed] About 80% of Jamiat-e Rabbani's members are currently converts from Islam.[citation needed] The majority of other Christian denominations continues to shrink due to emigration.

en.wikipedia.org...

Christians treatment by an ally, Saudi Arabia:

Brian Savio O'Connor's case is but the latest one in a long series of arrests, torture and abductions endured by Christians in Saudi Arabia. The Saudi regime's oppression of anything that is not Wahhabi Islam is raising fears among the eight million foreigners working in the desert kingdom.

Christianity is especially marked for repression. Local sources told AsiaNews that many Christians are in Saudi prisons for religious reasons.

In October 2003, the Muttawah, the Saudi religious police, arrested two Egyptian Christians. They were released a month later.

In February 2003, a foreign Christian of unknown nationality was expelled for giving an Arabic Bible to a Saudi citizen: foreigners are allowed to have Bibles in their own language, but owning one in Arabic is tantamount to proselytising, a crime that is punished with a jail sentence.

www.asianews.it...



It's interesting once you take the politics out of it just who is doing what.

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Majorion

 

Nonviolent huh?

So I can come to your country and open a Christian Church, teach Christianity, and it's all cool, because you're country is so tolerant, right?

Even though you avoid the points I make and refuse to answer the questions I ask, I will answer your question, but the answer is more complex than you'd care to take the time for.

Anyhow, Saudi is officially a 100% Muslim country, I don't really want to delve deep into the politics of my country but, IMO we are still a developing society which is pretty much third world, of course I live here so I can tell you what I know as an insider... even though there are no public churches and such isn't allowed(legally) doesn't prove your point of us being violent, it just proves the closed mindedness of our political and legal system. Although the complexes for foreigners DO have churches, bars, movie theaters etc... And FYI there are a small percentage of Saudi Jews in the southern region of my country.. they live in peace with the other Saudis and Muslims in that area, no one harrasses them or treats them with any violent nature.

On a personal note... Do I strike you as a terrorist of any kind?

Now can you please answer my questions?

[edit on 28/12/08 by Majorion]

reply to post by mybigunit

You didn't answer the question.

I specifically asked about your country. Another country may set food out to monkeys, but that matters not.

Can I come to YOUR country, build a church, and teach Christianity?

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by mybigunit

 

You didn't answer the question.

I specifically asked about your country. Another country may set food out to monkeys, but that matters not.

Can I come to YOUR country, build a church, and teach Christianity?

My country is Florida right here is the US of A so yea you can come here and build a church. Youll have a lot of competition though.

oh if you are talking about majorions then ask him I thought that question was shot at me hehe

[edit on 28-12-2008 by mybigunit]

reply to post by John Matrix

As to your last point: The USA is an extension of Israel, so there is no threat there. Many people know this already. It's why we support Israel.

I would love to know who the ‘we’ is you refer to that supports Israel? The United States of America I was born into was founded on separation of Church and State and had/has no state named Israel.

The ‘we’ you refer to our corrupt media elitists many of those media outlets and the news agencies that supply them with news are owned by prominent American and International Jews and Zionists.

The ‘we’ you refer to is our corrupt banking system, once again the vast majority owned by prominent American and International Jews and Zionists.

The ‘we’ you refer to is our corrupt corporate elite who have been steadily transferring non-defense related manufacturing off shore for three decades now to turn us into a debtor nation, of unemployed worthless eaters, who make great cannon fodder for World Wars.

The ‘we’ you refer to is our corrupt politicians who have passed the legislation allowing for so much foreign ownership and control of our vital infrastructure and the deconstruction of our Constitutional form of Government while exercising our United Nations Security Council Veto in every sanction brought against Israel’s wide spread human rights violation.

The ‘we’ you refer to is our Military/Industrial Complex, Security/Industrial Complex and Prison/Industrial Complex which are darn near the last sources of industry in this country and comprise the cornerstones of a fascist state to indoctrinate people into ‘we’ concepts.

The ‘we’ you refer to would be totally misguided, totally misinformed and totally un-American citizens of this nation founded on separation of Church and State.

In fact I envision a day when the ‘we’ you refer too is aggressively prosecuted for treason and other high crimes.

Please note I am not a part or party to the ‘we’ you refer to in this case.

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Majorion

 

There you go, misusing terminology. Since a Zionist seeks to establish a Jewish nation, and a Jewish nation was formed in 1948, you're terminology is 'expired.'

You are so childish in your post. They want it all, Gaza and West Bank.
Can you elaborate why there are setlers in west bank? What are they doing there, on other nations land? Building homes, taking land, forcing people.

Ohh I forgot, god gave it to them.Acording to god they should not be there at this time, but they just keep moving in and taking more and more land.
If you ask me only fanatics would do that, go somewhere else and take something by force that does not belong to them.

Your State laws prohibit such a thing? Why is that?

Is that because Islam is intolerant to Christianity? Otherwise, why would Saudi Arabia not allow Christianity to be taught in their country?

Is it because your law is determined by Islamic law?

And is the reason Christianity cannot be taught is because Islam isn't as tolerant as the apologists have been telling everyone?

What would happen if I built a great big beautiful Christian church and began passing out Bibles and teaching Christianity?

Would the same guys come after me that wouldn't allow the girls to leave a girl's school when it caught on fire, because they didn't have time to get their sheets on? And died????

Tell me how tolerant Islam is in the same country that houses Islam's holiest sites.