Scores killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza

Some photos of the event here:

dn.se (SWE)

Everytime another conflict involving Israel starts it's the same old thing with people getting overly worked up trying to prove that either side is absolutely right and the opposing side is absolutely wrong.



Hamas brough this upon themselves by shelling Israel in the last several weeks. This was not a surprise to them, and they expected this response (but maybe not on the sabbath) and were somewhat prepared for it. My guess is that no high-ranking leader of Hamas will die, because they are already in hiding. Also Israel gave advance warning.

Hamas knew that Palestinian civilians will die because of Israel's response to its rocket attacks. Nobody can argue that Hamas is the victim here and didn't see this coming. So the Hamas nutjobs are indirectly responsible for deaths of their own people.



Israel's response is also exaggerated and wrong, but the blame should lie on Israeli politicians who are trying to spin this in their favor. Ehud Barak is no doubt taking an opportunity to gain some votes for the upcoming election here. He could have acted against Hamas with much more reserve, but instead he chose to stage a huge attack with immense collateral damage.

Nobody is saying that Israel should not defend itself - but some forms of defense are deemed to be far too violent to be realisticaly considered as such. Israel could have taken it slow - step up domestic security, several precise helicopter attacks against Hamas headquarters, and perhaps targeted attacks on Hamas leaders. But no - it had to use a large part of its aviation to stage a massive bombing campaign. They might have killed some Palestinians, but now they got the world turned against them (not that that ever mattered to Israel).




Istead of choosing sides and arguing that you side is right untill you are blue in the face, try and observe this war for what it is:

1. Gaza is controlled by Hamas, while West Bank is controled by Fatah. Israel is far more in favor of Fatah running things than Hamas. Thus it appears that Israel's main goal is to force Hamas out of power, and to have Fatah fill in the gap. Notice that this conflict is not so much Israel-vs-Palestinians, than Israel-vs-Hamas.

2. There is power play taking place in Israel in anticipation of upcoming elections. No doubt this high-scale attack is a move by Ehud Barak to attract some voters. Barak was a major critic of Olmert's handling of the Lebanon war, and now this could be a demonstration of what a "successful" operation should be. If not for the election and Barak's involvement, it is likely the Israel would have acted differently.

3. Israel could also be eyeing the new President elect in the US. While is not clear how Obama would respond to Israel's attack in this case, Israel does not want to take chances and guess. So Israel maybe faced with a deadline here until Obama enters the White House.



Both sides are guilty here - guilty of doing whatever it is politicians do. Hamas and Israel are both exploiting the situation, and exploiting the lives of innocent civilians. This is as much a political war for them as an actual violent conflict. The only victims are civilians - both Israeli and Palestinian. And they deaths can be equally blamed on Israel and Hamas.

reply to post by mrmonsoon


I know what you were talking about
and the ONLY thing it says in the hamas charter that even comes close to acts of voilence against isreal is the part where the charter itself qoutes the koran (spelled it right this time )

Originally posted by ThePiemaker
reply to post by pavil

 

You'd have to also shoot his entire family, who didn't have any knives but were in the general vicinity and did help raise the guy who stabbed you. and I'm sure that friends of that family would be outraged at what you've done to people they considered innocent, and would come at you with a knife again. Hey, just shoot them and their whole familes too. Should solve the problem.

So if your brother attacked somebody with a knife, you wouldn't stop them??? So you would consider your brother innocent for attacking someone with a knife? The logic on your side just plainly baffles me. Must be a fun world you live in.


And yes, if he came at me I would shoot, if his family then came at me with knives, I would fire one warning shot, telling them the next ones will be aimed at each of their heads. If someone is going to act irrational, then they get what comes to them. I have the right to defend myself.

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by RFBurns

 

Here's some bits and pieces from those textbooks

* "Complete the following blank spaces with the appropriate word: The Zionist enemy - - [attacked] - - civilians with its aircraft.

[Our Arabic Language, Part 2 for Third Grade #523 p..9]

* "Why do the Jews hate Muslim unity and want to cause division among them? Give an example of the evil attempts of the Jews, from events happening today."

[Islamic Education for Seventh Grade p. 19]

* "The Jews … have killed and evicted Muslim and Christian inhabitants of Palestine, whose inhabitants are still suffering oppression and persecution under racist Jewish administration."

[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade # 589 p. 182]

* "Who is the thief who has torn our homeland?"

[Our Arabic Language for Sixth Grade Part One #553 p. 15]

* "Write in your exercise book: An event showing the fanaticism of the Jews in Palestine against Muslims or Christians."

[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade #589 p. 182]

* "One must beware of the Jews, for they are treacherous and disloyal."

[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade #589 p. 79]

* "Racism: Mankind has suffered from this evil both in ancient as well as in modern times, for, indeed, Satan has, in the eyes of many people, made their evil actions appear beautiful... Such a people are the Jews…"

[ Islamic Education for Eighth Grade p. 95]

* The clearest examples of racist belief and racial discrimination in the world are Nazism and Zionism.

[The New History of the Arabs and the World, P. 123]

* "I learn from this lesson: I believe that the Jews are the enemies of the Prophets and the believers."

[Islamic Education, Part Two, for Fourth Grade #531 p. 67]

* "From the Uhud expedition… a number of lessons can be learned…: Treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews and therefore one should beware of them."

[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade #589 p. 87]

* "The Jews adopted a position of hostility and deception towards the new religion. They called Muhammad a liar and denied him, they fought against his religion in all ways and by all means, a war that has not yet ended until today, and they conspired with the hypocrites and the idolaters against him and they are still behaving in the same way…"

[Islamic Education for Seventh Grade #564 p. 125]

* · "In many cases these Jews acted according to their known cunning and deceit, and they fomented wars [between Arab tribes]…

[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade # 589 p. 78]

* "Lessons to be learned: One must beware of civil war, which the Jews try to foment, and of their scheming against the Muslims."

[Ibid. p. 94]

* "Zionism is a political, aggressive and colonialist movement, which calls for the Judaisation of Palestine by the expulsion of its Arab inhabitants …

[Modern Arab History and Contemporary Problems,
Part Two, for Tenth Grade #613 p.49]

If this is a real Palestinian text book, can you actually blame them. Look at what is happening in Gaza.

So what if the Palestinians teach their children to hate their enemies? You expect them to love Israel. That is just plain weird. I think psychologists would classify your post as grandiose narcissism. No wonder the Palestinians can't abide by zionism.




From Israel with love!

reply to post by Runningtobabylon


Calling members Nazi's "IS" against TAC.

Just because you agree with that TAC violating insult, does not make it acceptable here.

We are to debate the topic and or disprove people argruments.

Those who resort to name calling do so because they can not prove their point in a calm, logical, reasonable manner.

Because they know this, they resort to name calling, they are screaming, "I can't prove my point or disprove your's"

reply to post by mrmonsoon


Well nazi isnt exactly an insult is it
You can use it in an insultive manner but you can also use it to describe people
"Gay" is also used an insult but we still call gay people gay, dont we

reply to post by maloy


Palestinian civilians were dieing anyway

even during Ceasefires Israel maintained the right to target assasinate hamas members, what kind of cease fire allows one side to carry on killing and expecting the other side to sit quitely and take it up the rear?

their blockades and starving people untill breaking point , only to let in a trickle of food and supplies didnt help either.

people are screaming Hamas firing rockets but they seem to downsize
Israels contribution and what they are doing.

the polititions in the UK are downsizing Israels acts and blaming hamas all the way, just like when polititions didnt want anything to do with germany and made pro german speaches.

Not saying Hamas are saints
but compared to Israel

its 1934 again

Originally posted by bodrul
reply to post by savetimerushonline

 

got to like it the way the Neo Nazis here
try and justify the murder of 140+ people

Just like the Neo nazis who tried and try to justify the slaughter of Jews by Germans using Religion as a tool.

sadly those who justify these crimes wont feel the same pain as the palestinian parents, sons and daughters, friends losing their loved ones.

Unless you belive in Karma so they get what they deserve.

Well said, People need to realize that the zionist are Neo Nazis. They despise true orthodox jews, they are athiest and hide them selves under the jewish faith. Make since that Hitler was a zionist.

"By way of deception, thou shalt do war" Mossad motto

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...
www.nkusa.org...
www.jewsnotzionists.org...

Originally posted by RFBurns
reply to post by redhatty

 

I dont need to write any articles, all I had to do was pay attention to history dating much further back than your 2000 article.

Like studying the history dating back into the 1940's on up. Your link isnt working, but I hope you at least included those decades of historical fact in your 2000 written article and didnt write it with any bias.

Cheers!!!!

So you are well aware of these facts then...

Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000.

The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

Arab refugees were intentionally not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands.

Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

Those that call themselves Palestinian are not wanted by their own fellow Arabs. They don't get help from their own fellow Arabs.

But this must also be Israel's fault too, huh?

Hey let's not forget that in the past, Israel supplied the Palestinians with weapons, which the Palestinians then used on Israelis.

reply to post by mrmonsoon



Zionism and zionist tendencies shares many facets with Nazism. There is no insult in that description; it is merely a statement of fact.

reply to post by masonwatcher


I find it both interesting how you changed your tune.

First you claimed something is not true and demand proof.

When the proof is provided, you change what you say from it's not true, to it's OK, they deserve it.

It seems to me, the sick and demented methods of Hamas teaching children all jews will kill them and they MUST murder as many women and children as possible, is simply going to continue the blood shed.

Remember, this is right in the Hamas charter!!!!

Maybe if they taught them, if you attack a country with rockets/bombs and mortars, they will counter attack.

Originally posted by masonwatcher
If this is a real Palestinian text book, can you actually blame them. Look at what is happening in Gaza.

So what if the Palestinians teach their children to hate their enemies? You expect them to love Israel. That is just plain weird. I think psychologists would classify your post as grandiose narcissism. No wonder the Palestinians can't abide by zionism.

This kind of teaching has been going on for 30 + yrs!

How can there ever be peace if children are indoctrinated into hate as soon as they can read?

What is happening Now is a result of what has been taught for 30+ years

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
reply to post by masonwatcher

 

Remember, this is right in the Hamas charter!!!!

If you would of cared to look at my post you would see its not
Stop trying to ignore plain facts
Here look for yourself
Hamas Charter

reply to post by redhatty


mmh, Palestine was here well before Britain anaxed most the land and handed it to Jewish Refugees, as a Home land for Jews,

good read

www.palestinehistory.com...

Damn talk about shrinking

Originally posted by Zerbst
the blame is far from equal. this is NOT RELIGIOUS, it is political. palestinians are desperate and left no choice but fight. gaza is a prison and israeli crimes of genocide and apartheid must be resisted at any costs.

Then they will suffer the consequences of their actions. Never mind about actually trying peace, lobbing rockets is so much more productive.

these people are forced to live in desert tents and are herded like cattle along checkpoints where they're subjected to never ending harassment and inconvenience. every day israeli soldiers terrorize and murder pallestinians. i've seen them repeatedly bash in the face of a child, using a large rock, whom was no more than 5yrs. old. shoot men dead at point blank range while unarmed and blindfolded. these are well out in the open. what worse perverted atrocities are they commiting while their numerous media outlets pass out their lies and propaganda?

You do realize that Gaza has been firmly under the sole control of Hamas for a fairly long time and Israel left Gaza quite awhile ago, right? Lies and propaganda??? Did the soldiers drink the blood of the 5 year old too?

reply to post by masonwatcher


Masonwatcher, you Are violating TAC.

Since you can't counter logical/proven points, you resort to personal insults????

Btw, I have challenged you over a dozen times.....

Define for us what a Zionist is-you use the term, but can't or have never defined what it means.

What makes a zionist?

What do they want?

What methods do they say to use to achieve their goal(s)

Since it seems you don't know the answers ( you never posted any answer) , you use that term as a personal insult as well.

You were warned about personal attacks and insults in u2u's, perhaps you need to be reminded that the same rules apply to posting.

reply to post by bodrul


You don't get it do you? The world Palestinian was not used until the late 60's 20 years after the British gave land to the Jews

Palestine referred to an area of land in Roman and biblical times, never to a group of people - at least not until the 60's

reply to post by mrmonsoon



Whatever mrmonsoon. Why don't you have your sayanim gangstalk Hamas, it cheaper than wasting American munitions.

What tune change are you referring too? Maybe you are responding to the photo of the Israeli children asked to sign the munitions to be deployed on the Lebanese population?

The Palestinians are entitled to hate the Israelis. What don't you understand about that comment? It is not a reflection of my attitude since I don't waste my energy hating.

Ya that is definately some textbook for kids!!! Excellent example!

Here it is again.

Israeli kids signing ammunition.





Cheers!!!!