Making inmates pay for food

Kinda off subject. But this thread was started by me so TECHNICALLY I can do whatever I want in it provided it's within reason...

BUT ANYWAYS.

What I was going to say is people all over this thread are talking about drugs left and right. I am in favor of legalizing pot. I am NOT a pot-smoker nor am I alcohol drinker. I do smoke. Mostly Davidoff cigarettes imported from Ukraine. And I'm going to smoke as many of those as I can before some *%$#-sucker bans that too.

My point is what everybody is already saying. Somebody made a snide remark "War on Americans" which was what he/she was referring to as the war on drugs. As much of a hard-line conservative I identify myself as? I agree with them on this.

Again, approximately five point six times out of ten the war on drugs is a massive joke. And in essence it can be perceived as a war against Americans. And for what purpose? Capital. It's a cheap way to make an extra buck without too much effort put into it's process.

Look at alcohol. Alcohol use to be illegal in the 20's to early 30's. Is it still illegal? No. Am I an alcohol drinker because alcohol is legal? NO! Same goes for pot? Am I pot smoker? NO! And I have a spotless criminal record. Not even a traffic violation. I am an example of what results from good parenting. Talking to your children every day about the good, the bad, and the ugly. And what they can and should do to avoid it.

While Slick Willy (Bill Clinton) was president he sent crop dusters to Columbia to sprinkle herbicide on their coc aine crops. Guess what? It was a quick fix which did the exact opposite of what it was intended to do. Production rose by a quarter.

You're only treating the symptoms. Don't do that. Treat the disease. I read in a gun magazine article marketed to law enforcement personnel covering this same topic about drugs and prison overcrowding. It mentioned that "We have to stop thinking in terms of throwing in the towel on our moral standards. And start thinking in terms of reducing crime.

This is how you keep innocent people out of jail and relieve the overcrowding so you can have room to house more heinous offenders like rapists and child molesters and murderers.

Crime is the disease. The contraband itself is not the disease. It's only a symptom. You don't treat the symptoms. By treating the symptoms your only cutting off one head and for every one you cut off five more show up.

You don't treat the symptoms. You treat the disease.

[edit on 12/18/08 by Marked One]

reply to post by Marked One


How are they going to pay for their food? Sell more drugs? Make more hits? Call more shots on the outside? That will teach them not to break the law.

reply to post by tezzajw



The constitution of the USA states that involuntary servitude is unconstitutional unless it is a consequence of conviction of a crime.

U.S. Constitution: Thirteenth Amendment
U.S. Constitution: Thirteenth Amendment
Thirteenth Amendment - Slavery And Involuntary Servitude
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

glad they make them participate in involuntary servitude.
seems the majority of US citizens do as well. it is the law of the land.

reply to post by pexx421


I just got out of jail. I was there for three months. It was horrible. I got out of the Marine Corp. about four years ago. I'm 26 now, and my plan was to use my G.I. bill to go to college.

About a month after being in combat in another country, I find myself drunk and alone in a bar in my hometown. I felt like I was one of the "good guys" at that point. I served my country honorably and was on my way to get an education. I got in a fight at that bar that night. I didn't start it but I instinctivly finished it. Broke the man's arm, and choked the #@## out of him.

I eagerly awaited for the police to arrive so I could tell them what happened and go home to sleep. I didn't know his arm was broken and was used to fighting all the time in the Corp., so it didn't seem like a big deal. The police got there and arrested me. I had to plea guilty to a felony assault charge to get probation instead of jail. I also got massive fines and restitution to pay.

I couldn't pay. It was too much. So they finally said that I violated my probation, and I had to go back to court. I went to court; they asked me to pay; I couldn't pay what they demanded and I was sentenced to a period of five months in the county jail. I did three. It was terrible. I did not feel like I belonged there; I was one of the "good guys", so why was I there?

Because the government had an opportunity to make money, and I ruined it by not giving it to them, that's why. They want money. They print it, send it out, and then try to get it all back. It's a sick little game that they take very seriously.

Now I am unemployed, with no vehicle (I had to sell it to pay them), I am no longer going to college because I won't be able to get a job that requires a degree with a felony on my record, and I do not have a place to call home. Luckily I have a wonderful girl and wonderful friends who let me stay with them. But no home.

I no longer feel like a "good guy". I feel like the scum of the Earth. I have an intense hatred toward the government and the police. I have so much potential and I am being held down by the record they gave me.

The government used me and then ruined my life. I killed for them and they ruined me. I used to have the best intentions and always did the next right thing. I'm not "me" anymore. They won't let me be. They don't care about "ANYTHING'' but money. Not me, not you, not the constitution or our country. Just MONEY.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by devildogUSMC]

reply to post by Marked One


The Government spends hundreds of millions of dollars trying to maintain the 'Drug War' and punish offenders. Drugs and actions taken by those on drugs should be on the law enforcement radar. Marijuana is less addictive and causes less violent tendencies in users. Mexican criminals are killing each other for the most lucrative trade routes and killing civilians and police. The marijuana drug trade is a multi-billion dollar industry that could be stopped by legalizing the plant and it's use. The taxes on marijuana alone would bring billions into the economy, release hundreds of thousands non-violent drug offenders and the influx of criminal immigrants carrying bricks of marijuana as well as their boss's will be out of jobs.

The criminal justice system is a bear, on one hand you have the tax payer who foots the bill for the incarcerated and on the other you have the law maker who decides "what punishment fits the crime" which goes hand in hand with states minimum sentencing guidelines that judges must follow. The Maricopa county jail is a rare example of the inmate population becoming more and more responsible for the costs associated with their confinement, it should be noted that this is not possible in all areas because every county,state and federal correctional facility operates under current statutes that are limited by the population at large's willingness to either fund or not the very programs mentioned. As mentioned in a previous post, most inmates are indigent that is a well known fact as the probability of job loss associated with a jail sentence is very high. Consider those inmates who would refuse to pay for their care and feeding, the taxpayer would remain responsible, as with inmates with medical conditions that prohibit any kind of physical labor. Work programs are readily available to all incarcerated individuals as are vocational training programs. Inmate's that are actively "working" earn less then 19 cents an hour, now consider the following if you would require inmates to "pay their own way" do you increase an inmates earnings? decrease the quality of food items and medical care they receive?(as the for mentioned are already at minimum standards) considering nutritional standards in place as well as acceptable medical treatment. Would you have the inmate pay for part or all of either medical or nutritional requirements? and would the benefits of doing so outweigh the negatives? I'll give a scenario, an inmate work's in the liscence plate manufacturing department of the prison he earns 20 cents an hour and works 8 hours a day that's $1.60 per day times 30 days in a month equals roughly $48 now out of that lets subtract minimal amounts for the following: any restitution due say 10 dollars(per month) equals $38, any court ordered child support due $15 (per month) equals $23. What would 23 dollars a month give or take actually buy said inmate in terms of food? not much. Now that brings us to the addition of the facility comissary where inmates can purchase items ranging from basic toiletries,pre-stamped envelopes ,playing cards to some luxuries like pop and dessert cakes , candy and related items( some institutions that allow electronics also sell televisions and alarm clocks as well as personal radio's) most inmates pay for these items with funds coming from their "books" or money that has been put into an account by family and friends, not all inmates have family or friends for that matter so that option is not given across the board. Would you take this away entirely so as not to be forced with the violence that results over comissary items present even now that would imo be multiplied if inmates were forced to buy their own food? Let's also take this into consideration, if you make some inmates responsible for the cost of food you must make all responsible, if you did not then entities like the ACLU and other advocates would have a hay day. and what would happen to all the "special diet" inmates who for medical or religious reasons must or must not eat specific items? All in all I don't think that making inmates pay for their food is a good idea, growing crops and cutting cost is a more viable option. My examples are more geared to the long term inmate, say three months or longer, this whole concept of making inmates pay for their own food is only asking for more problems.

Edit to add.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by alyosha1981]

[edit on 18-12-2008 by alyosha1981]

What is really wrong in this whole justice system is that most of the people who do crimes (like 90 % of them) are someones kids ...someones brothers and sisters someones cousin etc ...alot of them did not have parents at home to spend time with them ...quality time is important for a child .it helps make them family oriented,sociable,etc not criminal oriented .In these days both parents work all the time...so no family time...some of them had no adults at all to be examples of them to go by ....some of them had nothing really to speak of for basic needs ........some of them have seriously been misdirected ....and led astray ......some of them just dont have any hope in them for a future so they figure what the heck (they gamble with their life) .....Some of them are addicted to many things for emotional reasons ...some of them are found guilty of crimes just because they were bullied by the lawyers and judges to cop a plea to something they did not do but were afraid they may not be found innocent and end up with the maximum .....so they plea to a lesser charge even if they were innocent of the crime they are being charged with .(if you dont have money for a lawyer ..the lawyer they give you is not careing one bit of you get off or not because he is not being paid) ......... they scare them right out of their jury trial they asked for (this just happened to my son ) ........

In my opinion there is really only a small amount of them in there who are beyond help ..but once you toss anyone from the above I listed in jail too ..then they become the same animals as those already incarcerated ....which is sad .....something else needs to be done other than what is happening ....

Send the druggies,drunks etc to a REHABILITATION center for approx 1 year ...on lock down ..being taught self esteem...etc etc etc ...send the mentally ill to the NUT HOUSES ...where they also will be taught self esteem and how to care for yourself schools etc etc .....send the check writers to the How to manage finances dept at the nearest College ..(Mandatory) ......


The real hard core criminals should be the only ones in jails ..
All others should go to mandatory boot camps ....ranches ......or Alaska (working on pipelines ) lol or something ....where they will actually learn something and grow the heck up ........................and stay they heck outta trouble and learn to actually work and be a responsible human being ....

Oh and for sure the systems need STRICT OVERSEARS at them all to make darn sure NO ONE Is being treated like less than human .......

We all know that guards etc can and do abuse the power given to them ..I can bet alot of them feel like godkings where they carry the power WAY TO FAR in those places ...I mean why not eh ..no one gives a care about any criminal (As I have seen so much of on just this thread alone) ..

Some of you may find yourself someday ended up in places like the one the OP is talking about ..and I do not believe you would like it at all ..if it was you who was in their shoes ..even if they are not innocent ..if treated like animals they will act like animals ....and then there will be no changes ever made in the system or in the lives of the criminals ..and they will just keep coming back and comeing back .. ...


Most of the people in there really just need someone to care and that would be enough of a hope for them to actually do something better for themselves other than criminal activity ......at least we should try to help them make it ..not just keep kicking them when they are down .


Maybe when someone comes into the prison systems they should at least be watched and see what kind of people they are ..and if they are harmless and innocent like ..(a check writer)or (pot head) or just an average Joe who could not pay a speeding ticket .....they should at least be seperated from the ROUGHER ones in there .......and do something to help them while they are there ..(Classes ..work ...something) ....that will make sure they have some skills or something for when they get out ..
And ALL crimes should be EXPUNGED once they serve their times ..(except for the really violent crimes).......why should they be punished the rest of their lives for something they already did their time for ? They cannot even get a job after a felony ..they cant get any help once a felony is on them...DROP IT so they have a future where their past is not held against them to the point where they cannot even go forward from there ..

reply to post by Simplynoone

Send the druggies,drunks etc to a REHABILITATION center for approx 1 year ...on lock down ..being taught self esteem...etc etc etc

This sounds good in principle, but the logistics involved in a secure treatment center are tough, (1) the person has to be willing to accept the program, they will not surrender the addiction unless they are.(2) the person has to be employable and willing to work. Employment is a big part of being self sufficient as well as a crucial component to any community corrections or community treatment program as most of them if not all generate some of their basic operating costs from 'fees" taken from paychecks of people in the program.(3) The programs still have to adhere to local and federal laws in that I mean that some people in that given scenario are prone to relapse as that is part of recovery, they are subject to the same laws as everyone else they have no immunity so if they are found to have used drugs that would in turn violate the parole or probation and thus send them back to jail or prison repeating the cycle and adding to the recidivism rate which is what states use to evaluate the success rate of programs like this. Here's the problem with that, some of these contract facilities will actually "cover up" dirty UA results so as to avoid the loss of funding because if most of their "clients" are still using then the program doesn't work and will be shut down.You cannot lock people in that setting and expect results that is what jail and prison are for, I'm not all together disagreeing with you but I think that all of the supporters of abolishing mandatory minimum sentences for drug related offences should attempt some homework on the subject before being so critical of the lawyers and judges.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by alyosha1981]

reply to post by alyosha1981

Maybe when someone comes into the prison systems they should at least be watched and see what kind of people they are ..and if they are harmless and innocent like ..(a check writer)or (pot head) or just an average Joe who could not pay a speeding ticket .....they should at least be seperated from the ROUGHER ones in there .......and do something to help them while they are there ..(Classes ..work ...something) ....that will make sure they have some skills or something for when they get out ..

Most facilities do just that it's call a security classification and the basic principle for a lower class is violence. If a newly arrived inmate has any( and I mean any) violent charges on their record then that disqualifies them from a lower security setting and most times they will go to "gen pop" while some probably succumb to the "big dog's" a great majority actually do not. There exists in every state and county facility the option for one to be segregated for their own protection and most times if the situation warrants this will be granted. As far as the big picture, county jails are like a bus station with lots and lots of people all going somewhere, the problem you can't always tell the "rougher ones" from the "average" joe just by current charge(s) alone thus don't always know right away where their "going" in terms of the legal process. A bad check writer for example may only be there for a few hours or at most overnight, unless they cant afford bond, in that case they're just placed in a general holding area until they go to court and probably released afterwords with maybe some probation time and the expectation that they pay back any money owed and without saying hopefully the stay will deter from future fraudulent check writing. As far as classes go they do offer and sometimes make mandatory classes for some offences and the responsibility of attending and completion lies on the offender.

And ALL crimes should be EXPUNGED once they serve their times ..(except for the really violent crimes).......why should they be punished the rest of their lives for something they already did their time for ?

Sorry not targeting you as I feel you have some valid opinions but on the last quote, not good because part of sentencing involves prior convictions and as such a first time offender is given a lighter sentence then a three time offender this would only work if there was a way to know for certain that a person would not re offend and that is just not possible. As far as the future of a convicted felon.. well that is up to the individual I know that gaining employment post felony conviction is hard but there are plenty of companies willing to give second chances, in fact one can even run for public office with a felony conviction.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by alyosha1981]

what a stupid idea!
i usually refrain from being blant - but this is stupid, plain and simple.
do they even know how may innocent souls will die of
hunger in jails because they won't have money to pay for it?
work to earn? yeah - right!
it likely be more like:
work - earn - get robbed - die of hunger or fighting.

idiotic idea, what's next - we gonna make them pay taxes too?

[edit on 18-12-2008 by eventHorizon]

reply to post by Simplynoone


That's where I am at. I'm 26, a veteran, intelligent, motivated, and if I did not have a record I would have been almost finished with my B.A. . One fight, and I'm stuck doing crappy construction jobs, never knowing when there will be work for me because I am the newest person in the local, and fighting to get my unemployment checks when I'm laid off.

This isn't me. This is not what I wanted for my life. I can't do anything that I want to do with my life because they have a record that says I'm a violent offender. I was minding my own business that night. Just sitting, drinking, and thinking. A guy trys to be my friend or something and starts talking to me, so I politely told him that I wasn't there to make friends and I wanted to sit alone and drink my drink. That wasn't ok with him. He brought his buddies over and tried to make a joke out of me. I told him to take his buddies and get away from me or "I'd kick his teeth in" (a common thing to say in the Corp.), I did not mean it literally. He telegraphed, a punch was coming, I caught his arm and broke it, then choked him until he passed out. I didn't feel I did anything wrong. He was a threat, he engaged me, and I neutralized him, case closed; he's the bad guy. NOPE. I am because I was a better fighter.

The police treated me like garbage. I thought they were on my side, "the good guys". NOPE. I let them cuff me quietly, I thought maybe it was just standard operating procedure to take both combatants in to give statements. I thought we'd be shaking hands and making jokes. They charged me with aggravated assault, and my bail was 100,000 dollars. My friends came up with enough money to go to a bondsman and get me out. I'm still paying them back. It's just for money.

They look at every crime as an opportunity to make money. They show complete disregard for the lives and families that are destroyed. They have hurt more people than everyone in all the prisons combined. They ruined my life and I hate them for it. I fought for them, I would have and could have died for them, for 850 dollars every two weeks and a chance to get an education when and if I got out. And now they have taken that dream away from me by giving me a record that says I am violent, after they payed me, and trained me to fight for them.

What can I do. I don't want to be poor, and working my butt off forever. I want a house, and a car, and an education, and a job in a field that interests and challenges me, I want a life. I'm alive but I don't have a life, I have an existance and I have to fight for it tooth and nail, and I'm tired of it. I'm 26 and I feel like I'm 60 years old. All because I have a record.

I'm a nice guy. I haven't been in, nor wanted to be in any fight since then. I haven't had a drink since then and have decided not to drink at all anymore. I do not use drugs. I recieved excellent grades and was in all AP classes in high school. All my teachers were suprised when I told them I was going into the Marines before college. I could tell they thought it was a bad idea for me. It would be just as bad if I had to get student loans, I was thinking. With the G.I. bill I would not have to pay it back. Seemed like a good deal. Those recruiters are phenominal salesman.

I did the probation, I payed the money, I lived in that stinking jail for three months, and now I am being punished for the rest of my life with a record that will follow me anywhere I go and thwart any attempt I make to advance myself. How the F#@# is this justice?

Originally posted by tezzajw
Not to cause an argument, but I don't agree with making prisoners pay for food.

However, I think that they should only be able to enjoy (wrong word?) luxuries IF they work. Kind of like a reward for effort scheme.

Mis- posted.
More later.


[edit on 18-12-2008 by badgerprints]

awesome, so now food becomes a commodity to be used as prison currency moreso than ever. i wonder how many weaker prisoners will go on without food now? Safe to say the meaner ones will be eating just fine.

i have a feeling all the supportive replies are from those who have never stepped foot in a prison, and just hear stories of how its all big-screen tvs, swimming pools and caviar. I hope that none of you are unfortunate enough to learn how wrong you are the hard way.

Prisoners need support and rehabilitation. Neither of those will come from withholding food or other necessities.

Originally posted by Shakesbeer
so what happens when someone can't pay and is left to literally rot in prison or does everyone not want to hold onto the last shred of the ban on cruel & unusual punishment? Like the point was made earlier even by the OP, many people in jail don't even deserve it, now you want to make them pay money that they can't earn back to be in there too? Yes, sounds like great idea America...let's just keep turning back the evolutionary chart on ourselves and get rid of compassion all together! Let's bring back stoning and cutting off hands while we're at it too since everyone seems to be so starved for imposing suffering on others...

The whole don't deserve it argument is a poor one...

When I give my kid lunch money is it suffering on my part? Also, I don't see anyone suggesting we starve people who will not or can't pay. The difference is they get crappy but nourishing food.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Why should anyone have to eat crappy food? They are already in jail or prison; that is punishment enough. They are fellow humans and fellow Americans and deserve decent food and safe living conditions. I think throwing someone into a place where they are barely and poorly fed, beaten, or sodomized is cruel and unusual; do you not?

When I was little (8 y.o.) we went on a field trip to Philadelphia and did the whole historic tour thing, I remember the tour guide showing us some small jail there. It had little barred windows that faced the outside of the building. When I asked about them, she said that if an inmate was imprisoned there and their families did not bring them any food they would die there.

I thought what a great punishment system...why dont we do that today?!

That was the day I knew then I was a Republican!

But really, people need food....maybe not a meal cooked by Paula Dean but some food.......

It will just add to the violence...



[edit on 18-12-2008 by Cairowoman]

reply to post by greeneyedleo


I hope you end up spending time in jail.

You probably won't actually be guilty of anything, but many people in our jails aren't guilty of anything either.

You might get assaulted or even raped in jail, but at least you will be fed three meals a day... we'll be spoiling you really.

I hope you get arrested and spend time in jail, regardless if you are guilty of anything. You will absolutely benefit from the experience, especially if someone steals your food and assaults you. You will learn about REALITY that way.

Sadly I don't think we will be so lucky as to have you incarcerated.
In any case; What happened to you to make you so cruel?

Originally posted by devildogUSMC
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

That's where I am at. I'm 26, a veteran, intelligent, motivated, and if I did not have a record I would have been almost finished with my B.A. . One fight, and I'm stuck doing crappy construction jobs, never knowing when there will be work for me because I am the newest person in the local, and fighting to get my unemployment checks when I'm laid off.

This isn't me. This is not what I wanted for my life. I can't do anything that I want to do with my life because they have a record that says I'm a violent offender. I was minding my own business that night. Just sitting, drinking, and thinking. A guy trys to be my friend or something and starts talking to me, so I politely told him that I wasn't there to make friends and I wanted to sit alone and drink my drink. That wasn't ok with him. He brought his buddies over and tried to make a joke out of me. I told him to take his buddies and get away from me or "I'd kick his teeth in" (a common thing to say in the Corp.), I did not mean it literally. He telegraphed, a punch was coming, I caught his arm and broke it, then choked him until he passed out. I didn't feel I did anything wrong. He was a threat, he engaged me, and I neutralized him, case closed; he's the bad guy. NOPE. I am because I was a better fighter.

The police treated me like garbage. I thought they were on my side, "the good guys". NOPE. I let them cuff me quietly, I thought maybe it was just standard operating procedure to take both combatants in to give statements. I thought we'd be shaking hands and making jokes. They charged me with aggravated assault, and my bail was 100,000 dollars. My friends came up with enough money to go to a bondsman and get me out. I'm still paying them back. It's just for money.

They look at every crime as an opportunity to make money. They show complete disregard for the lives and families that are destroyed. They have hurt more people than everyone in all the prisons combined. They ruined my life and I hate them for it. I fought for them, I would have and could have died for them, for 850 dollars every two weeks and a chance to get an education when and if I got out. And now they have taken that dream away from me by giving me a record that says I am violent, after they payed me, and trained me to fight for them.

What can I do. I don't want to be poor, and working my butt off forever. I want a house, and a car, and an education, and a job in a field that interests and challenges me, I want a life. I'm alive but I don't have a life, I have an existance and I have to fight for it tooth and nail, and I'm tired of it. I'm 26 and I feel like I'm 60 years old. All because I have a record.

I'm a nice guy. I haven't been in, nor wanted to be in any fight since then. I haven't had a drink since then and have decided not to drink at all anymore. I do not use drugs. I recieved excellent grades and was in all AP classes in high school. All my teachers were suprised when I told them I was going into the Marines before college. I could tell they thought it was a bad idea for me. It would be just as bad if I had to get student loans, I was thinking. With the G.I. bill I would not have to pay it back. Seemed like a good deal. Those recruiters are phenominal salesman.

I did the probation, I payed the money, I lived in that stinking jail for three months, and now I am being punished for the rest of my life with a record that will follow me anywhere I go and thwart any attempt I make to advance myself. How the F#@# is this justice?

This is exactly what I'm trying to point out. It's stories like this that make me sick to my stomach and more and more cynical about everything else in life. What can we do?

Originally posted by tezzajw
Not to cause an argument, but I don't agree with making prisoners pay for food.
However, I think that they should only be able to enjoy (wrong word?) luxuries IF they work. Kind of like a reward for effort scheme.

I think your point of view is the problem with many people who are in jail. Law abiding citizens work hard every day to pay for the basics, take care of our families and still pay taxes but we only get what we can afford.

They want the basics without work and expect luxuries if they do?
Wrong way to think about it if you ask me.

I have no sympathy for morons who get crossway with the law over laziness, stupidity and selfish disregard for basic rules. We have too many 20 and 30 year infants in jail over minor BS but the idiots don't seem to learn.

Small time crooks who are not looking at a long prison stay should be treated just short of inhumanely. Their short incarcerations should be the most disturbing, miserable and scary experiences possible. Then they will have an incentive to get back out and build a real life that does not include crime. We waste too much time and money catering to these parasites. The ones who still can salvage a life after incarceration should be absolutely terrified of going back to jail.


The serious offenders are another class of criminal and should be handled differently. Violent and repeat offenders who will be shut away for long term or the rest of their lives should have decent facilities with regular work to do so they can at least have some purpose besides wasting away in a cell.