Changing Of The Guard 'Constitutional crisis' looming over Obama's birth location Alan Keyes laws

Originally posted by grover
I also notice that not one of you have addressed the fundamental flaw is this whole non-issue... that with a U.S. born and bred parent... his mother in this case... he is automatically a citizen regardless of where he was born.

The avoidance of it tells me all I need to know about the people screaming so hard about it... they can't or refuse to address it because they know that they are wrong.

*sigh* NO we are NOT wrong, YOU are.

That's ok, though I guess if you didn't know all the facts there is to this you would think what you know is the facts

Obama was enrolled by his parents in a public school, Fransiskus Assisi School, a public school, in Jakarta, Indonesia. Plaintiff has received copies of the school registration in which it clearly states Obama’s name as “Barry Soetoro,” and lists his citizenship as Indonesian. Obama’s father is listed as Lolo Soetoro, Obama’s date of birth and place of birth are listed as August 4, 1961 in Hawaii, and Obama’s Religion is listed as Islam. This document was verified by Inside Edition, whose reporter, Matt Meagher, took the actual footage of the school record. At the time Obama was
registered the public schools obtained and verified the citizenship status and name of the student through the Indonesian Government. All Indonesian students were required to carry government identity cards, or Karty Tanda Pendudaks, as well as family card identification called a Kartu Keluarga. The Kartu Keluarga is a family card which bears the legal names and citizenship status of all family members.”

Here are the AP photos entered By Mr. Berg as evidence:

citizenwells.wordpress.com... awaii-us-constitution-congress-philip-j-berg-proof-obama-indonesian-november-10-20/

[edit on 16-11-2008 by MAINTAL]

Originally posted by PowerSlave
I just don't get it.

To all of the Obama supporters here.

If you were in his shoes, and you had multiple lawsuits being filed against you. Sure several are from relatively unknowns.

If I were in his shoes, and I had already presented proof of my BC on american soil, had been years under the scope of the mccain clinton campaigns and the bush administration, and everytime I show any proof, those on the right refuse to believe it, then I just wouldnt bother, especially considering that these folks are just disgruntled conservatives making any excuse not to accept the inevitable come January.

Each one of these suits is asking for the same thing
1. Place of birth
2. hospital of birth
3. Delivering Doctor's name/signature

And you figure that in the two years this man has been running for president, under the scope of both the mccain and clinton campaigns who were dead desperate to find anything on him, under the scope of the bush administration, having his information on the computer been hacked on numerous times, been viewed, having presented his BC, having it verified by the hawaiin officials, and yet still those who dont like the man and would have never voted for him even if he completely changed his policies to suit them still refusing to believe so. Really, why should he waste his time a the disgruntled minority of this nation who will not believe him regardless?

Better yet heres a better question, what are the REAL motives behind those who are pushing for these lawsuits? What are the feelings? And you know im pritty darn sure it has nothing to do with the constitution.

After all of this, you know there is nothing else you need to provide.

There will always be something he will need to do to satisfy the disgruntled right, to which he really shouldnt bother to and damn straight he should keep as it.

You have already posted the rest of the info from a BC. So there won't be anything else information wise to worry about showing.

The mans already done so, but your folks refuse to believe it. He can give out any information and it will either be labelled as fake or some conspiracy. Why should he bother with the disgruntled minority who are sour grapes over the election?

Hell, Mccain went through the same thing and he came right out with it, right away.

McCain never went through half as much Obama is having to go to inorder to satisfy the right here, please dont be blinded by partisanship.

From Jan onwards Obama will become the president of the united states, and during this time we have all kinds of conspiracy threads about this guy, because well this is a conspiracy website. Either way he will still be your president, regardless.



[edit on 16-11-2008 by southern_Guardian]

Originally posted by PowerSlave
Each one of these suits is asking for the same thing
1. Place of birth
2. hospital of birth
3. Delivering Doctor's name/signature
...
You also know that this info is available and you were indeed born in HI and have those 3 things everyone wants to see. And it is a requirement by law, for the job.

His hospital of birth and the doctor's name are NOT required for the job.

Just imagine for a moment that he was actually born in Hawaii. Just pretend that for a second. The people of the country doubt you, so you post your Certificate of Live Birth on the freaking Internet to put their concerns at ease...

Before you know it, there are 5000 people saying it's fake and every amateur blogger from NY to Cali are examining it for every little detail of authenticity and even going so far as to inundate the records department of Hawaii with emails and phone calls and demands to release his birth certificate! His family and friends are swarmed by investigators and it turns out that trying to prove his citizenship only caused a LOT more trouble.

Now, what do you think would happen if he released his actual birth certificate now? THE SAME THING! A totally new firestorm would be started, it would be declared a fake by so many "experts", the records dept in Hawaii would AGAIN be inundated with calls and emails about its authenticity.

Or do you think people would just say, "Oh, Okay."? He IS a natural-born citizen! If the certificate of Live Birth didn't prove it, why do you think a birth certificate would?

Since when does the accused have to provide proof of anything? Doing so simply validates these asinine claims. Let the accusers provide the evidence if they have any. Show me the written statement of the Kenyan doctor who delivered Obama. Show me the Indonesian citizen paperwork. Show me any documents that states that either he or his mother renounced his US citizenship. Prove that he was not born in Hawaii. Was he born in a hospital or in a hut in Kenya? Is there proof ? Not a single person here would forgo their constitutional rights to provide fodder for a disenchanted minority mob. If or when a court ask him to do so, he will, but until then he is rightfully telling all of his accusers to "f off" as any sensible individual would do.

reply to post by southern_Guardian


I starred your post because you do bring up a fine point. However, my response would be a simple request for Obama to shut this thing down so it isn't drug out any farther. It has the potential to be a serious issue and if it is a baseless accusation, I couldn't be happier that this thing would go away.

However, at the same time, I wouldn't put my faith in the campaigns of any of these crooked politicians to do my own detective work for me.
Apparently a few well-respected lawyers have some questions and I think it would be best for all parties to see this issue through.

It wouldn't be the first time a politician has been able to hide something about his past.

PS. Just to note, I am NOT a part of the "disgruntled right", as you put it. You are generalizing.



[edit on 16-11-2008 by Jay-in-AR]

reply to post by ORIPEIA


You are exactly right. Therefore, if this thing ever makes it to court, it will not be enough that his birth certificate cannot verify his place of birth.

The plaintiff would then be required to present some sort of evidence that HIS claim was correct.
Like the supposed doctor from Kenya who is making claim to being the delivering MD. Other evidence would be the claims of his Kenyan family members (if any of those claims hold any credence, which I have my doubts)...

Yes, you are right. Lets let the system work. First lets have a look at Obama's records. It is a reasonable request as you or I often have to when applying for a job. The job of Presidency is no different.

You guys really honestly think Obama isn't from America?

But his mom is, so it doesn't even matter...

I just find these types of threads so boring

Like, you guys are so bitter your going to accuse the man of being from another country and hope he gets overthrown and embarrassed and somehow the outcome is that he isn't the President and Biden is?

I mean who cares guys you should focus your energy on the collapse of the dollar and dump the dollar, invest in gold stocks, gold and silver, and get rid of your dollars asap.

This type of Obama thread is so played out. First hes a muslim (even if he is, what are YOU gonna do about it)......maybe he isn't. Maybe he's just a good guy.

I really dont see any good responses from the Obama supporters on this thread.
None at all. Scrutinize blah blah blah, blah blah blah. Its pretty simple, he is giving
them a ton of ammo by paying a fortune on lawyers in multiple states.

End of story, please drive thru. Let me say that again so you can understand it.
I know you Obama supporters read slow.

HES SPENDING A FORTUNE ON TEAMS OF LAWYERS IN MULTIPLE STATES TO FILE PROTECTIVE ORDERS AGAINST DISCOVERY. AND NOW LONG DRAWN OUT CASES. WHY SPEND TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS (Possibly hundreds at some point)? WHY NOT DEFEAT THE CHALLENGE BY PROVING THE PEICE OF PAPER? NO MATTER IF ITS CALLED FAKE IN THE FUTURE IT WILL NEVER EVER AGAIN LEAD TO HIM HAVING TO PAY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!

Sorry I had to use caps I think the Obama supporters have a hard time reading our responses.

Side note, in Bergs original case I think he was sueing for his own fees of like 43k?
I mean seriously people even if he thought for one second hed be scrutinized still, he wouldnt have to pay for all these suits anymore. Stories over. Hes hiding his BC for a very good reason. Why pay all this cash if theres no reason?

Follow the money.



[edit on 16-11-2008 by Memysabu]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I don't know if such a thing would start another fire storm. I think the issue would be dropped as this time he would be disclosing them personally to a Federal Judge.

Sure, there would still be people claiming that he was delaying because he was trying to come up with a good fake, but I would like to hope that most reasonably minded people would let it go. I know I would. I would drop the issue completely. In my eyes, Obama still has a clean slate.

What I don't understand is for what motive would his paternal Grandmother have said that she was present during his birth in Kenya if it wasn't true?

reply to post by ConservativeJack


That is a pretty poor argument. I haven't seen anyone say they would hope he is "overthrown"... We don't overthrow our leaders in America, we impeach them if there are suitable grounds. With one exception being the current President who is now above the law thanks to 9-11.


In fact, for me, it would be a nightmare come true if this story even makes it to the headline news of the MSM. I hope this thing is sorted out as quickly as possible and as quietly as possible, provided the accusations even have any validity.

And in response to your question. I am not making the claim that he WASN'T born in the United States. A handfull of lawyers are.

[edit on 16-11-2008 by Jay-in-AR]

Again, because his mother is a U.S. born citizen, none of this matters anyway.

I get it, you guys are angry. Your jealous of Obama, he's young, powerful, attractive, and extremely successful.

I fear though this has more to do with the color of his skin than where he was born

If I'm wrong I'm happy. And if you guys care so much about this take him to court. Take him to court. Put your money where your mouth is. For once.

[edit on 16-11-2008 by ConservativeJack]

reply to post by Jay-in-AR






Agreed. I just find it perplexing that people are calling for him to throw aside his constiututional rights and "just show his BC". Why should he play along? Individuals accussed of murder don't have to prove a thing on their own behalf, just the prosecution. Just looking at the link provided by the OP tells me that this suit is steeped in bias at best.

Since this whole birth certificate fiasco (on both sides of the political spectrum) has been going on ad nauseum for months on end now, it is just getting ridiculous. At least in my mind.

On the one hand, I can see why Obama supporters are telling people to just get over it. Hawaii has said the BC is vaild. He has posted a COLB on the internet. Lawsuits before the election were thrown out due to "lack of proof of injury". The majority of Americans voted for this man and he is now our President-elect.

On the other hand, I can see why other people are questioning Obama and his seeming refusal to show his actual vault copy BC. There is no federal agency that vets Presidential candidates; the party of the nominee is "responsible" to make sure that the 3 little prerequisites for running for the office are met. Questions about Obama, his citizenship, and his place of birth have been floating around for over a year (if not longer). He has hired lawyer after lawyer after lawyer to fight the lawsuits that were brought before the election and has never shown any inclination to show the vault copy BC and shut everyone up.

If I were him, I'd show the freaking piece of paper and get it over with. If I had nothing to hide, I wouldn't act like I did. And, whether you support Obama or not, you have to admit that it would be easier to just show the piece of paper. It would shut the questioners up and resolve the issue once and for all.

There is no proof that Obama was not born in this country other than a questionable quote (that can be interpreted in many ways) from his grandmother in Kenya that he could have been, might have been, may have been born there.

Yet, there ARE questions about his COLB that everyone and their brother has seen, questioned, and analyzed to death. There have been numerous lawsuits about his eligibility to hold the office of President due to either his "natural born citizen" status and/or his citizenship status due to being adopted by his step-father and residing and being schooled in Indonesia. Hell, it's even made it to the Supreme Court. Questions are there, from politicians, lawyers, and everyday, regular Americans.

In my mind, and strictly in my opinion, I would just prefer that he show his vault copy BC to the world. That will end this thing quickly and efficiently. There is no need to drag this out in the courts, hire lawyers, or to have the document sealed by the state of Hawaii. For me, personally, his seemingly resistant attitude of producing the document raises questions. But, that's just me.

Debating back and forth on ATS isn't going to solve anything. Questioners are not going to be swayed by supporters, and supporters aren't going to have their minds changed by the questioners. It just isn't going to happen. That's why, in my mind, this is getting ridiculous.

One thing we should all be able to agree on is upholding the integrity of our Constitution. It lays out 3 little prerequisites for holding the office of President. If there is a question about one of those three, that question should be concretely resolved. If the candidate or President-elect cannot or will not resolve the question/issue, it is left up to the courts to do so.

Obama is my President-elect. That being the case, I will support him and respect him and his office. But, if this issue is not resolved and the questions stay up in the air, then that lessens my support and respect for the MAN to a degree. If it comes to light that he wasn't actually born on US soil, then he should not be able to take office. That's the law of the land, and it should be upheld....no matter what.

....hopes this makes sense, because I ended up rambling a bit more than I wanted to....

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The Lawsuit (pdf)

Originally posted by Jay-in-AR
And when it WAS made an issue, McCain willingly gave up his information and had a team of lawyers ready to make sure that the McCain campaign was compliant with all laws. Obama has failed to provide the documents asked for, for reasons I don't quite understand.

But McCain isn't a member of a group that has been oppressed for his entire life. I'm not saying it's right, but I CAN understand how a black man would be hesitant to buckle to the demands of a bunch of people who don't support him, didn't vote for him, wouldn't in a million years and are trying to sully his good name just for the sake of politics. There's a part of Obama that the public doesn't know about all right. He doesn't take any crap. And I can definitely see him standing strong on this for the principal of the matter.

He's not hiding it because he has to. He's keeping it private because he can.

That's what I think he's doing, but we shall see.

Are you kidding with this quote??!!

"but I CAN understand how a black man would be hesitant to buckle to the demands of a bunch of people who don't support him, didn't vote for him, wouldn't in a million years " and are trying to sully his good name just for the sake of politics. There's a part of Obama that the public doesn't know about all right. He doesn't take any crap. And I can definitely see him standing strong on this for the principal of the matter."

So now Obama is ABOVE the constitution!!

"and are trying to sully his good name just for sake the politics" Uh NO!! How about for the sake of ETHICS, MORALS AND VALUES! Which if this proves to be true and Obama cheated his way into the White House, what does that say about our nation, who sets aside the very principles this country was founded on? What does that say about you?

Originally posted by ORIPEIA
reply to post by Jay-in-AR

 

Agreed. I just find it perplexing that people are calling for him to throw aside his constiututional rights and "just show his BC". Why should he play along?

Why wouldn't he play along? Oh because it might mean putting the well being of this country ahead of his own agenda. And because its required by law.
I have to show my bc or proper ID to get a job. Why the heck shoouldn't BO?? Wow it almost seems as if he thinks he's above the law and rules the rest of us play by.

reply to post by ConservativeJack


I feel you are simply being argumentive here. Either that or you haven't read the thread. If you had, you would have seen that the issue of his mother has been addressed already, by proponents on both sides of the issue.
Sure, I didn't support Obama but I'm sure glad he is the incoming vs. the possibility of McCain being in there. So, no, it has nothing to do with his youth, looks, "power" or skin color. As I've said previously, I think he is poised to be one of the Greatest Presidents in American History but until this issue is resolved, there is still work to be done... By him.

reply to post by ORIPEIA


That may be true, but I still think it needs to be addressed. Then again, it may not be true... Once again, I think it needs to be addressed.

Originally posted by ConservativeJack
I get it, you guys are angry. Your jealous of Obama, he's young, powerful, attractive, and extremely successful.

I fear though this has more to do with the color of his skin than where he was born

If I'm wrong I'm happy.

As am I your statement regarding if your wrong, your happy. But should that not be the case, we as a people who support equality and right need to keep a watchful eye.

Peace


[edit on 16-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by TrekFan



I'm sure that he has a DL/Passport and has provided proof to acquire them when the situation dictated such, but this is a campaign to call him a liar and fraud. Let the accusers put their money where their mouths are and provide tangible proof that shows him to be other than what he says he is. Where is their proof? Why aren't people asking for their documentation? If I accused someone of something I would have my proof all layed out for perusal, yet these people bring nothing to the table but baseless accusations and internet rumors. If anyone had anything to prove this case against Obama, then they would have put it forth already. Again, I will ask for proof. Show me the money.