Changing Of The Guard 'Constitutional crisis' looming over Obama's birth location Alan Keyes laws

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

You've been TOTALLY level-headed in this discussion. People like you and SourGrapes make debating fun again.

I have all but lost hope for ATS lately and you show me that there are still people here that can debate without kindergarten antics.

So, thanks to both of you.

Thanks for the comment!

I find this very interesting. While I may argue for showing the documents in question, I do believe this has the potential of being a very bad event for us.

I really do hope that he renders the documents and satisfies the court's inquiry (at the very least, as I know that many with still questions it's authenticity). This will not have a good ending, for any of us, if his Presidential qualifications are found to be 'questionable' and/or something other than qualified.

The interesting parts to all of this, and possibly the 'silver-lining' to all of this debating and arguing, is the research that it forces (some of us) to do. I mean, I'm still somewhat confused about the whole electoral college and some of the process; and I even took U.S. Constitutional Law in college.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

You've been TOTALLY level-headed in this discussion. People like you and SourGrapes make debating fun again.

I have all but lost hope for ATS lately and you show me that there are still people here that can debate without kindergarten antics.

So, thanks to both of you.

Thanks for the comment!

I find this very interesting. While I may argue for showing the documents in question, I do believe this has the potential of being a very bad event for us.

I really do hope that he renders the documents and satisfies the court's inquiry (at the very least, as I know that many with still questions it's authenticity). This will not have a good ending, for any of us, if his Presidential qualifications are found to be 'questionable' and/or something other than qualified.

The interesting parts to all of this, and possibly the 'silver-lining' to all of this debating and arguing, is the research that it forces (some of us) to do. I mean, I'm still somewhat confused about the whole electoral college and some of the process; and I even took U.S. Constitutional Law in college.

Originally posted by Jay-in-AR
reply to post by redhatty

 

By the same token though, she could not renounce it and neither could his father. I still feel that this is an issue that would be up to the Supreme Court to decide through judicial interpretation.

I don't think the "renunciation" of citizenship is even an issue, IMO. But as his mother couldn't legally convey citizenship to her son because of age, His father COULD convey citizenship as he was old enough, the problem being that his father was Kenyan. IF (BIG IF) Obama was born in Kenya, then there is no way he could have been considered a US Citizen at all, not without a whole ton of subterfuge by the family in the filing of paperwork with Hawaii.

And it may simply be that this is the case, the family is responsible for the subterfuge and Obama is trying not to scar their names forever.

Now I do not for one minute think that the family would connive to make him a US citizen for any other purpose than to make him a citizen, like the rest of the family. I am quite certain that there was no belief at that time that Obama would end up becoming the President-Elect.

But avoiding the issue, legally maneuvering to keep from presenting the ONE PIECE OF PAPER that would end this is not helping many Americans to accept him as their soon to be President. Granted there are some who for whatever bigotry will never accept him, but I think in some way, all presidents go through that, without having a "race card" to deal with.

If this doesn't get resolved before the inauguration and later, some UGLY truth is revealed that validates all the doubters' fears, what happens to this country?

Would all the laws signed during that time by Obama become null and void? Or maybe even something worse - which I don't even want to venture into imagining.

This can be put to rest so easily, yet that action is not being taken, and that is why the doubts continue. As long as Obama avoids facing this question, it will only feed the doubts.

I wish this would just be done with, but it isn't. And the longer it drags out, the more people will keep doubting.

Just an example to express from personal experience how serious and emotional people are about the person they like politically.

I was reading my Mom some of the data from the Writ and she gets all mad about it saying "they are just sore losers" then going on to say more "blah, blah, blah" and getting sarcastic with me.

I try to explain that I am just the messenger, not taking sides on the issue, just mentioning it.

Then she gets ready to leave and tells me......"Well, don't go to the hardware store and get any rope while I'm gone" and I'm like "What???"

Like I am a lynch mob or something for passing the info.

So on a mass scale I can only imagine how people would react if he is somehow disqualified!!!

It would be a terrible thing if it had to be decided he's not American by birth.

But help me out: If his mother is American, wouldn't he be American as well?

If Obama was born in Kenya, and his mother never followed up establishing Obama's U.S. citizenship, followed by Obama moving to Indonesia, than it is possible that Obama is not a naturalized citizen.

A child born to a U.S. citizen, with the other parent being a citizen of another nation, in another nation, and not on U.S. soil, then U.S. citizenship is not automatic.

The amount of money Obama is spending on Lawyers instead of just producing the document is a very strong indicator that there is a problem.

It sounds like this is a question that would have to be answered by the SCOTUS.

Does anyone know the situation with Obama's mother's citizenship? There is a possibility that she might have denounced her own U.S. citizenship. These are very legitimate concerns.

It seems that if this were decided before the end of the year, and Obama was deemed not eligible, then an emergency election could be held. Most likely Hillary would claim the status of DNC nominee.

Originally posted by grover
I also notice that not one of you have addressed the fundamental flaw is this whole non-issue... that with a U.S. born and bred parent... his mother in this case... he is automatically a citizen regardless of where he was born.

The avoidance of it tells me all I need to know about the people screaming so hard about it... they can't or refuse to address it because they know that they are wrong.

According to the laws in 1961 his mother would have to have lived in the US for five years after the age of 16. She was 18 when she gave birth to Barack. No one is avoiding that point your just choosing to ignore it, it has been mentioned in this thread more then once.

So it is an issue, he is NOT an automatic citizen if he wasn't born in the US.

reply to post by Spinoza73



Read the Writ filed on the first page and you will understand exactly what the points are.

I found the link in the OP didn't work for me, but a couple of posts down you will find the Writ.

If you don't find it say so and I will re-link it.

It explains exactly all the points that are in dispute.

reply to post by redhatty


Well, the reason I mention the renunciation is that I believe the outcome would be left to the courts as to whether he was, in a matter of fact, born an American citizen DUE TO the age of his mother at the time. This appears to be the issue, at least in my mind.

That being said, if the court WAS to decide (and this is very doubtful, imo) that his mother was too young to grant him automatic citizenship then you are absolutely right. However, if it is said that he was born with citizenship, the next obvious objection would be the issue of his Indonesian Schooling and how he couldn't be allowed to be schooled there being an American Citizen. It would raise questions about his citizenship somehow being renounced and that isn't the case... However, at that point it wouldn't matter anyhow because he was born an American Citizen...


Long story short is I agree.

Part of the problem are the school records from Indonesia when he went to school using the name Barry and the last name of his stepfather. He registered as an Indonesian resident and his religion was listed as Islam, apparently Indonesia at that time did not allow duel citizenship and so neither did the US. If this is the case he would have had to reapply with immigrations upon his return in 1971 and there are no records of that.

As far as the in Hawaii the law is that you can be a citizen if the parents were residents there for a year before the birth.

You really need to read the writ!

[edit on 16-11-2008 by interestedalways]

Also around 81 he visited Pakistan when Americans were banned from going so it is assumed that he must have used a different passport.

Being a citizen of three potential different countries is part of the issue, I read.

Here again is the link to the PDF for the action filed.

www.theindependentview.com...

reply to post by poet1b


I agree, I think Hillary will be the one....Didn't you get the feeling that she never really did let go of the "hope"...?

I find it comical that when this issue was brought up before the election, people who talked about it were flamed and fried....nice to see people can actually have civil talks about politics.....and nice to see people are willing to accept the possibility of it being true...I hope it's not, I don't want to see the fallout from it....

reply to post by scrubsnstuffkim


I think it is VERY possible that the reason this seems to be being pushed under the rug, so to speak, is simply because of the *potential* for backlash.

I think that if this was headline news on CNN you would ALREADY see the ignorant masses rioting in the streets before the issue even made it to a court of law.

Hey, but if that were to happen, Obama would be forced to put this issue to rest. It is a VERY curious situation.

reply to post by Spinoza73

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
He has an American Mother. End of story.

But that's NOT the end of the story. Believe me, I would like nothing more than for that to be true. But I have done extensive research on this (as have others here) and in the year Obama was born, there was a stipulation that the American parent had to have been living in the US for 5 years AFTER her 14th birthday to automatically pass on her citizenship to her son. Since Obama's mother was 18 when he was born, that was not possible.

Besides, if he was born in Kenya, then he may be a citizen of the US, but he wouldn't be a natural-born citizen, which is what the Constitution requires of presidents.

I just don't get it.

To all of the Obama supporters here.

If you were in his shoes, and you had multiple lawsuits being filed against you. Sure several are from relatively unknowns. But now there is one from someone who has political clout.

Each one of these suits is asking for the same thing
1. Place of birth
2. hospital of birth
3. Delivering Doctor's name/signature

After all of this, you know there is nothing else you need to provide. You have already posted the rest of the info from a BC. So there won't be anything else information wise to worry about showing.

You also know that this info is available and you were indeed born in HI and have those 3 things everyone wants to see. And it is a requirement by law, for the job.

Why continue with the stress of it all? Why spend all that cash on lawyers?
Why continue to feed the sharks?

I know I would give it up, and put all of this to rest.

Hell, Mccain went through the same thing and he came right out with it, right away. Isn't that what you would want your leader to do?

And yet, you all continue to blindly defend him without even questioning why he is not being forthright. People earn respect, it is not given willy nilly. If your president to be cannot even provide something that is an absolute requirement to be president, how can you defend that, and how can you respect him for it.

Baffling.........


I personally think that the republicans and hilary do not want to be the ones to kill the hopes of the people and forever be remebered for that . So they are steering clear of this one.

I may be completely wrong here and if so I would accept it, but it seems to me there would only be a few ways to be born "naturally" a US citizen.
1) Born inside the United States (although I don't necessarily agree with this. ie people coming across the Mexican border illegally to birth their child inside the US)
2) Being born on foreign US soil, such as an American embassy or an American Military Hospital.
3) Being born to two United States citizens outside the United states, whether the parents be out on business or vacation (although the mother shouldn't be travelling that late in the pregnancy it does happen)

The other possibility would be being born to one US citizen and a foreigner. While you could argue that the child would be a naturalized citizen, POSSIBLY, they aren't, at least in the way I see it, a natural born citizen. I believe there is a very real difference in the eyes of the Constitution and this is what needs to be addressed.

I believe the reason for the 'wording' of the 'natural' born citizen is written in such, that protects the Presidential seat from someone who may have a malicious purpose in obtaining the most important, and influential, position in the world.

[conspiracy: ON]
Let's just say that a person born to one U.S. citizen can be considered 'natural born', whether the person was born on U.S. soil or not. This would leave it open to a person who may not have the U.S.'s best interest at heart, when acting in the position of President. Like, would he side with Kenya? with Indonesia?, how about Pakistan? or, would he side with the U.S. if placed in such a position to even take sides?

What about the possibility of an organized terror cell, or any other organization with 'ill-will' towards the U.S., impregnating a young and gullible American girl, with the full intention of producing a child who would be eligible to hold the Presidential seat.

Then, take that child and educate him/her in another country where American interests and laws aren't governed. Educate this person with another perspective that may be against what we teach here, in the U.S. Then, send the child back into the U.S. in time to claim his/her citizenship. Afterward, pay for his education in the most liberal and highly recognized Universities, the U.S. has to offer.

Support his/her campaign, fully fund the person's legal and educational support, all the while grooming the said candidate in a manner that can only be detrimental to the U.S.'s future.

[conspiracy: OFF]

I can see a plethora of problems that could stem from the issue of having only one parent - of which is still a child herself - becoming the sole person required to determine the 'natural' in the citizenship.

Now, with BOTH parents being U.S. citizens, the questionable purpose of said position would be less detrimental; not to mention the fact of the parents serving the United States military.

Some of the same ATSers who call 'baloney' and say we should 'get a life' are some of the very same ATSers who point out how the U.S. is hated by other countries. What better reason to demand a naturalized United States born, and bread, citizen to hold the highest office in the country?



[edit on 16-11-2008 by SourGrapes]

reply to post by SourGrapes


Agreed. And to me that is what makes this such an important issue. I'm not saying, nor is anyone I know of, that Obama is a terrorist of any sort, but the fallout from this decision, if not made properly, sets a very real and dangerous precident that you outlined quite well.