Changing Of The Guard 'Constitutional crisis' looming over Obama's birth location Alan Keyes laws

I know the can of worms seems to have been closed again, and while I do not really want to open it, I would like to ask opinions of this argument by Leo Donofrio, another person who has a suit filed with SCOTUS (received today and awaiting placement on Justice Thomas' docket (emergency stay application)

Do you think that there is a sliver of a chance that this argument has merit?

reply to post by redhatty


Just to clear up my confusion, are we supposed to download that audio file? Or were you talking about the blog post that says no one is eligible to be president since no one alive today was a citizen when the Constitution was written?

If it's the former, I'm not too keen on downloading random audio files from blogs. Too many nasty things my pc might catch. But if you know another place it can be listened to without downloading, I'm willing to listen to it. If it's the latter, that argument is nonsense. I highly doubt that the founders meant for it to be taken that way. Most likely they grandfathered themselves in, if that's how you want to look at it, because they were the founders and it would have been silly to exclude themselves from being eligible to run the country they were starting.

I'll tell you what, I don't really know WHAT to think any longer. But I stand by what I've said. I feel like ultimately, he must be granted citizenship due to the birth-rights provided under law to someone being a legal resident of the State of Hawaii and that his father cannot renounce those rights...

I would like to hope this would stay out of the main topic of discussion in this country, but the more and more of these that come out, the harder that is going to be.

reply to post by Jenna


I think the point is that they made specific attempts to establish themselves, being British Born Citizens, separate for what they would hope be the direction the country took from there out...

Like I said, I don't think it matters though. Obama appears to be a naturally born citizen, at least in my eyes.

The law at the time Obama was born governing U.S. citizenship as provided by another poster on page.

Thanks Blue Triangle

www.abovetopsecret.com...

US Citizenship by Birth or Through Parents - Immigration

immigration.findlaw.com...(1).html

4. December 24, 1952 to November 13, 1986
If, at the time of your birth, both your parents were U.S. citizens and at least one had a prior residence in the United States, you automatically acquired U.S. citizenship with no conditions for retaining it.

If only one parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16. There are no conditions placed on retaining this type of citizenship. If your one U.S. citizen parent is your father and you were born outside of marriage, the same rules apply if your father legally legitimated you before your 21st birthday and you were unmarried at the time. If legitimation occurred after November 14, 1986, your father must have established paternity prior to your 18th birthday, either by acknowledgment or by court order, and must have stated in writing that he would support you financially until your 18th birthday.

So what it would come down to is, did Obama's mother maintain residence in the U.S. for three years after Obama was born.

As we have shown here on this forum, this is a complicated issue. I think SCOTUS should rule on this, so that it is cleared up once and for all, as SCOTUS ruled on McCain's status. I think SCOTUS would rule in Obama's favor.

Wouldn't it be much better for Obama to take office without some controversy like this hanging over his head? What if Obama's mother spent a summer or two in Kenya? SCOTUS ruling ends all questions.

Do we need to continue to re-post this information on ATS on numerous threads and on this thread over and over again?



[edit on 17-11-2008 by poet1b]

We call all speculate until the cows come home and the rooster crows.
But with the new breaking news of Mombasa Imam and the documents that he has stating PROOF that Obama was indeed born in Kenya, this just puts a whole other spin on something that Obama could have stopped months and months ago.
He is in the UK now and being heavily guarded.
Getting him and the docs to the US will be the next plan.
Keeping him alive and the docs in safe hands will I am sure be very tricky.
Hey, I am just a house wife - I want the truth.
Got a little time on my hands in between loads of laundry, so I have been doing some looking around.
I didn't vote for Obama for a lot of reasons. This was just one of them.
When he claims he wants to bring the people together and then brings forth a situation that divides those who are completely obsessed with him against the people who still have the ability to think for themselves and want what is good for their country.
I said NO to him.
Time always brings out the truth.
No matter what your point of view or gut feeling is on this man - you will have to face that moment when you will be either wrong or right.
Find comfort in being wrong. Because being wrong is the first step in becoming RIGHT.

reply to post by Ktmac


Really the whole Mombasa Imam thing isn't helping or hurting the cases as of right now. Haven't been to the thread in a day or so, but unless something has changed the information about the supposed documents he was carrying can't be found anywhere except API and those using API as the source which places the information under doubt. If that information has been found somewhere else that doesn't reference API as the source, please correct me.

Originally posted by redhatty
I would like to ask opinions of this argument by Leo Donofrio,

Obama WAS a citizen of Kenya, simply because his father was a citizen of Kenya. Since he was born in the US, he was also a natural-born citizen of the US. He held dual citizenship in the US and Kenya until his 21st birthday, at which time, the Kenyan citizenship automatically expired because he didn't swear an allegiance to Kenya.

It's on the Fight the Smears website.

I'm not sure what your link is trying to say, but Obama was never a British citizen. He was a Kenyan citizen. That doesn't effect the fact that he was a natural-born citizen of the US.

Edited to add: From your source:

Since the the Framers didn't consider themselves to have been "natural born Citizens" due to their having been subject to British jurisdiction at their birth, then Senator Obama, having also been subject to British jurisdiction at the time of his birth, also cannot be considered a "natural born Citizen" of the United States.

Even if Obama was "subject to British jurisdiction", that doesn't negate being "natural-born". The very first way to KNOW if someone is natural-born is if they were born in the US. There was no way for the framers to be natural-born. That's why the grandfather clause is there.

[edit on 17-11-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Hang it up my friend... they don't want to listen and when the supreme court shoots it down they will be screaming conspiracy and cover up.

Let them... it apparently gives meaning to their lives.

This is my last post on this thread.... it grows tedious.

reply to post by grover


redhatty asked what we thought. That's what I think. I think it's fair (and necessary) to find out this stuff so we have the information.

Besides, what better have I got to do? Oh, yeah, brush 4 dogs, make dinner, work out... I better get going!

I have a novel idea....

Instead of trying to change minds that will never be changed, why not wait for the Appeals Court or SCOTUS or whatever court has one of these cases in front of them to rule?? Why not wait for the outcome instead of posting the same rhetoric over and over again, the same links to laws over and over again, the same questions over and over again??

The sides in this issue are not going to be swayed by each other, and the real question won't be answered here.

reply to post by Jenna

Barak Obama was born in Hawaii plain and simple! John McCain was born in Panama, plain and simple. And, the REICH-wing noise machine can't stand that the people of these United States are sick and tired of FASCISM!

Pittsburgh Joe (not a fake plumber)

Originally posted by skeptic1
I have a novel idea....

Instead of trying to change minds that will never be changed, why not wait for the Appeals Court or SCOTUS or whatever court has one of these cases in front of them to rule?? Why not wait for the outcome instead of posting the same rhetoric over and over again, the same links to laws over and over again, the same questions over and over again??

The sides in this issue are not going to be swayed by each other, and the real question won't be answered here.

Probably the best idea, although it is interesting to debate. I have not made up my mind, I am waiting for The Supreme Court to weigh in. In my opinion the whole sitiation is curious.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
I wouldn't hold your breath on this one.
Not covered by a major headline that I can see.
Thrown out of courts in multiple states.

His mother was from Kansas and that alone in my book makes him American.

American mother, American child.

In my eyes, case closed.

Peace

your eyes and opinion don't matter. the law does. that's half the prolem with most sheep in this country.

I wasn't going to say anything else but the last post really ticks me off... I am bloody sick and tired of jerks calling others who disagree with them sheep.

Do you have any idea how insulting that is? It doesn't contribute a damned thing to the conservation and for all intent and purpose discounts whatever the person you are calling that says to meaningless.

Has it ever entered your pointy little head that maybe you are the one that is deluded and a fricking sheep.

Originally posted by skeptic1
Instead of trying to change minds that will never be changed,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm trying to understand to the best of my ability the FACTS of the case. I'm looking up the laws and reviewing them and sharing them here for others to read and form their own opinion.

why not wait for the Appeals Court or SCOTUS or whatever court has one of these cases in front of them to rule??

I will. I am waiting to see if it goes that far and if so, I'm very curious as to what they will find. I really have no choice but to wait.

But in the mean time, I don't see the harm in researching and finding the facts, educating myself (and maybe others) and forming my own opinion about it.

Why not wait for the outcome instead of posting the same rhetoric over and over again, the same links to laws over and over again, the same questions over and over again??

I have never before today seen the laws that I posted today. Besides, what's it hurt to educate ourselves on the laws? I have never felt that reading the law is a waste of time. But then, I'm a bit of a law nerd.

The sides in this issue are not going to be swayed by each other, and the real question won't be answered here.

Seems to me that both Jay in AR and myself changed our minds about something during the course of this thread. It's all about education to me.

What confuses me is ... why are people who clearly hate this sort of "mumbo-jumbo" coming in here and trying to get us to stop discussing it, when it's obviously something we enjoy? That's VERY confusing to me. I learned a LOT in this thread and enjoyed the education.

Frankly, what's it to you?

grover, buddy, let it roll off.

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THE LACK OF BASIC UNDERSTANDING BY PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

IT IS AS EASY AS THIS PEOPLE -

It has nothing to do with where his parents were born or grandfather clauses or any of that.

"NATURAL BORN" Citizen means BORN on UNITED STATES OF AMERICA SOIL. PERIOD.

If his birth certificate says he was born OUTSIDE of the USA, IT DOES NOT MATTER THE CITIZENSHIP OF HIM, HIS PARENTS, OR ANYBODY ELSE. He will be a "NATURALIZED" citizen, and therefor unable to be president!

I've known that since 5th grade people! It isn't that hard! Are you all that blind that you can't grasp a concept that simple?

Obama has posted a "CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH" which IS NOT an official document stating where someone is born in regards to presidency. He needs to show an OFFICIAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE. See? Certificate of live birth does not equal birth certificate.

WHERE DID YOU PEOPLE GET YOUR EDUCATION?

ATS is worthless now a days. seriously.

reply to post by XyZeR


Just a point of clarification here. Everyone who keeps saying "Since his mother was a US citizen he could be born anywhere" or "He's a natural born citizen because his parents were".....

That ONLY applies to children born to BOTH US parents! Obama only had ONE US parent. The guidelines are MUCH different and the child is not automatically a US citizen if ONLY ONE parent is a US citizen. That is the case with Obama.

Nuts are filing screwy lawsuits that can, and will, have no effect.

Personally, I can't stand Obama, and I suspect that some idiot will kill him, but there simply is no evidence at all that he was born anywhere but Hawaii.

The State of Hawaii has already verified his birth certificate as being valid.

Enough with the stupidity and craziness. Isn't it about time that all of you freaks climb back into your holes?

reply to post by OldMedic


Well now that wasn't nice, now was it? This is a discussion board, essentially. It was created for the purpose of discussion, and that is what most of the posters in this thread have been doing.



Benevolent Heretic - Star for you. That's something many people aren't understanding. Our beliefs about the situation don't really amount to much, but we have every right to educate ourselves about the situation. Personally, I've learned quite a bit reading the thread. I may not always comment and I may not always agree with what another posters says, but that does not take away from the educational aspect of topics such as these. It's threads like this that require research to prove our points that really make ATS a great place to be. I must confess I was beginning to doubt how open-minded you were about Obama-related threads there for awhile, and for that I apologize.