Please tell me this bible verse does not mean what I think it does!

reply to post by The Stand


Stand, You know full well what is being said here, otherwise why would you ask for clarification?

Trust your own instincts, you will find you are right (like most instinctual feelings we all have, but mostly ignore).

Yes, in my opinion (nothing humble about it btw), this is exactly what you feared when you asked the question.

I'll not draw it out, but it is genocide, coupled with a large unhealthy dose of pedophillia (for the men to partake in, aparently) with young girls, once all the boys and adult women are disposed of.

Nice isn't it!

I've drawn the same conclusions as you seem to have.

Do as i say or i'll kill you all!

Nice, very nice. Inspiring even, if you're into murder and sufferring and evil. Not much going on in the way of love, spirituality, peace, faith etc.

Basically, do as i say and i may reward you (so follow if you are selfish and think of yourself and your reward), don't do as i say (have freedom, free choices, your own mind) and you'll suffer and die like a pathetic animal that has disobeyed me!

Charming.

Nothing holy about that is there.

Let's be honest...the bible was written by flawed, stupid humans for flawed, stupid humans to read as a kind of horror story to scare the children and the childish into line.

May as well have said: Now eat up your greens and you can have some ice cream after! Or, if you arew naughty, you cannot have the toy, go out, go to the playground, go to your room etc etc.

It's all the same old carrot and stick routine, that's been around since humanity has.

Only the bible takes it one step further, i.e. genocide if you are naughty!

Kind of puts the traditional image of a kindly, wise old man into perspective doesn't it!

In reality though, you can pretty ignore the bible. It is virtually a word for word copy of the sumerian accounts of nibiru and the 'gods who came down from the sky'. Research it - and you'll see the exact same 'bible' stories witten down on 6000 year old clay tablets. Thousands of years before the events of the bible are thought to have taken place.

Coincidence? Of course not. We don't have word for word, story for story coincidences. It's called a copy instead.

But yeah, that's is what that particular verse means, exactly what you think it means, i'm sorry to say.

spikey.

spikey.

Originally posted by moocowman
If you created a programme that behaved in a manner that you did not anticipate, would this in your opinion be evolution?

Or if you created a programme, that you could anticipate behaving in a manner that you could not anticipate, would you consider this to be evolution? (hope my grammer conveys my question correctly there)

Good question. One of the things I noticed is that we have an intelligence range. In order for something created to be deemed "intelligent", it has to be in our intelligence range. It could be so intelligent, that it goes well beyond our own understandings and when that happens, we won't recognize it. The patterns and logic it would see and such could be well beyond our own understanding, and would be like gibberish.

Like trying to teach physics to a dog.

And programs often behave in manners not anticipated. Call them bugs usually. When you write a program, all you are really doing is setting down logic for it to follow. I don't call them evolving, I usually call them broken lol.

What the program can't do, and requires conscious for is to make a choice. The program can only follow the logic it is given, it can not make a choice for itself. The closest thing you can really get to simulating a choice is to setup a bunch of different possible reactions, and then getting a random number to pick one.

To get even closer to appear to being conscious, you can get the random numbers/result actions from the start, and then it would develop what seemed to be unique and consistent tendencies.

Kind of like some people see with evolution. Where everything is action/reaction. In such a case, all the choices/randomness is all determined at the moment of the big bang, and everything else is just the result of those choices/randomness.

The problem with this is that I can make a choice now. I can choose to raise my hand or not to. Is the choice I make a result of previous actions, or is it free will/choice? As I am conscious, I think it is free will/choice. And you have a combination of both, action reaction, but with consciousness you also get reasoning and understanding. If everything is determined at the big bang, then you are not in control of what you do? Doesn't fit my experience, but action/reaction is definitely a big part of the experience.

Consciousness is something special. It is the viewer. Our brains take in all this data and do all this stuff, but to whom and what is this presented to? Consciousness/observer.

Hope that makes sense. It is a very deep topic, and is to question our own reality.




[edit on 13-11-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by noobfun


You are wasting your time mate, you really are.

These people have been programmed since birth to perpetuate the largest conjob in the history of the human race.

You will NEVER convince them otherwise.

Even when confronted with OUTRAGEOUS discrepencies and contradictions and outright fantasy and even a fair smattering (ok a torrent) of threats of neverending agony and despair (WTF?! is that about?).

The upshot is you cannot break a lifetime of programming with a few lines of text.

spikey.

I'm not christian, but I have asked many if they think the Bible speaks about two different Gods.

Old Testament; God is wrathfull (easily angered), to be Feared, a Warmonger, Egotistical and, External to us.

New Testament; a Loving Father, Kind, Sympathetic and, Inside us... according to what Thomas recorded as Jesus' words.

Information in the Old Testament is from archaic times when a person's life was worth nothing, Males were supremely dominant, suffering and harships were the order of life for the majority, etc. This way of life had been around for a long time already.

Within the New Testament we see a continuation of the same behaviours, then a young man started talking about changing how we lived. He saw the imbalance in cultures and believed we are all created equal, believed we can commune with "God" within us. He offered new grounds to perceive things.

Such a threat to the status quo was squashed as routinely as any criminal, in order for the archaic ways to continue.

Once Paul (Saul) wrested control of the fledgling movement from James (brother of Jesus), he began the evolution of falsehood in order to continue the archaic ways. Some of his anecdotes are that Jesus died for our Sins, and that he was resurrected.

Briefly, we are supposed to have Free Will yet many cannot see humans used it freely over the long "evolution" of what we know as the Bible.

And they did so based on their Personal Beliefs, their desire for Power, their Greed and other fairly normal human traits.

Fortunately today, a small percentage of people no longer live in the archaic ways, although many of those traits are still found in our western society, as is the greed and desire for power.

But, the grounds to perceive from are slowly moving towards what that young man foresaw as a better world for the majority of people.

Personally, I think we should view the Bible as an altered history of the Times it was recorded over... from when the Hebrews came out of Sumer with first book we know as Genesis. The fore-runner of which we can still read today in the Sumerian Tablets.

Therefore, such horrific statements you have found in the Bible are insights into the mentality of the times, and not what we are meant to do in our Time.

reply to post by tgambill


You realise of course that Satan and Lucifer were supposed to be two different entities don't you?

Always thought Lucifer (bearer of light) was a strange name for evil.

Bringer of light...bringer of knowledge. Illuminated. The light of knowledge.

So, we have a biblical god, who slaughters men, woman and innocent children and demands that we cower in the dirt at his feet, and if not he'll kill you too.

Then we have a character called Lucifer the bearer of the light, who brings knowledge and wisdom, but we are told he is evil incarnate, destined to battle 'our' god eventually.

Is it me or is there something...screwed up there?

It's a bit like history is always written by the victors. In other words, the winners can write what they like as factual history, because there will be no one to argue would there.

What if the biblical 'god' is the evil one, and lucifer was trying to bring us light and knowledge that would have led to our freedom from a vindictive and tyranical entity?

That would tie in with a lot of things that seem not to ring true.

Perhaps god was a 'grey', among a party of greys (perhaps stranded here), and Lucifer was another, more benevolent species, that was trying to show us, through knowledge (the bringing of the light of knowledge) that what primitive humans thought was miracles or magic, or supernatural abilities (god like) was in fact a sham, and hoax, deception.

What if Lucifer was showing us that god was a fake, intimidating us with amazingly advanced (even by todays standards) technology to worship him/her/it.

Imagine all the millions of sheeple worshipping the wrong one all these years. Classic. (the bible even CALLS the people sheep! so is belittling you, before you even read it!)

spikey.

Originally posted by badmedia
I dunno. The first program for most people is a "Hello World" program. The way I see "life" is more like nano-technology. Where each cell builds and reacts based on the code(DNA). Change the code just a little bit, and the cells would do something completely different.

I mean look at the whole genetic manipulation bit. All they are really trying to do is change the code in ways that make it do things they want. And they will change a bit of code here and there, see what it does and reverse engineer based on those effects. But they aren't really changing the cells and such, just the genetic code the cells read.

thats why i was asking you use the term evolution but the way you were talking sounds more intelligent design

if the nano's are doing thier own thing then thats evolution if someones feeding them new bits of code thats ID

The only real thing I have against Darwin's theory is that it leaves consciousness at the door. That things are completely random. The randomness pretty much goes against science doesn't it? Where randomness is frown upon. Science says that something has to be repeatable over and over. But for some reason, this randomness is just accepted in Darwin's theory.

conciousness arised from evolutionary processes its lots of bits shoved together that dont always work intuativley

theres more to our concious then we are aware of to deny that is like denying gravity. understadning the bits we kind of understand as a bit haphazard and not the best they could be is clle psychology lol

theres a couple of interesting papers around here somewhere about some of the nature of conciousness and one of them is that it understands in narratives ill try and find it

Not sure what you mean. You can copy programs and transfer/share them now. It just takes someone doing an action. But so does creating a baby. I think you accidentally skipped a few words there.

nope

if said virus does its own thing and becomes somthing else all by its own that evolution of a computery scale

if someones constantly poking in the code that Id

but your dancing around stating either as your choice quite eloquently so ill leave it at that




[edit on 13/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by spikey
These people have been programmed since birth to perpetuate the largest conjob in the history of the human race.

You will NEVER convince them otherwise.

Even when confronted with OUTRAGEOUS discrepencies and contradictions and outright fantasy and even a fair smattering (ok a torrent) of threats of neverending agony and despair (WTF?! is that about?).

but that doesnt mean i shouldnt try

might also make others think before running headlong into the same insanity of duble think and hypocricy

besides each new and inventive counter argument leads me to learn new and interesting things to counter it

helping just 1 person to make the world better is a worthy cause if a few more follow along its all smokes and budweiser ^_^

reply to post by Tayesin

ever heard of Marcion?

he was the first to form a new testement of sorts and beleived exactly that, of course later got branded a heretic and chased from rome

he believed that jesus had come to teach us of the new god and died on the cross to save us from the evil abrahamic god of the old testament

none of his works survived the usual book burnings but the chiurch kept plenty of thier books that show his beleifs and then the counter arguments to prove them ungodly

Originally posted by The Stand
For example, what does this verse mean?

It means the same thing that a lot of OT bible verses mean ...

Actually, it's a good historical record showing that mankind has had kooks throughout recorded history. Kooks that used religion and preyed upon people in order to further their own interests or their own psychosis'.

The sad thing is - it could happen again today.

Someone could come along and claim to be special, claim to be able to heal the world, claim to be able to do miracles, and that someone would be able to get massive followers to do his (or her) bidding.

History repeats itself. It's just a matter of time.

Originally posted by noobfun
thats why i was asking you use the term evolution but the way you were talking sounds more intelligent design

if the nano's are doing thier own thing then thats evolution if someones feeding them new bits of code thats ID

Can call it ID if you want. I mean really these are all theories. All we can do is try to find flaws in the logic.

conciousness arised from evolutionary processes its lots of bits shoved together that dont always work intuativley

theres more to our concious then we are aware of to deny that is like denying gravity. understadning the bits we kind of understand as a bit haphazard and not the best they could be is clle psychology lol

theres a couple of interesting papers around here somewhere about some of the nature of conciousness and one of them is that it understands in narratives ill try and find it


if said virus does its own thing and becomes somthing else all by its own that evolution of a computery scale

if someones constantly poking in the code that Id

but your dancing around stating either as your choice quite eloquently so ill leave it at that

The question at it's core is if things happened randomly, or if they happened by design.

According to science, everything is action/reaction. In a world of action/reaction, choice is not allowed. Because your choice is really just a reaction to the action if true. Every event is just the reaction of the previous event, and the reaction triggers another reaction on so on.

Randomness is not allowed. If a theory isn't repeatable in a lab each and every time, then the theory is said to be false. Yet in Darwins theory, we are allowed to have randomness.

If it's just chemicals in the brain and such that cause our reactions and actions, then that is a direct result of a previous action.

The problem is choice. We have choice. We have free will. The universe we live in is action/reaction based. But we are not. Our consciousness is not action/reaction based, although people certainly are pushed into being action/reaction based, because when you can predict the reaction then you can control it by certain actions.

So in order for that virus to go on it's own and evolve, it has to somehow override it's code and make the choice for itself to do so. You can program it to do those things, but then it's just following and doing the logic you gave it, it is not doing anything on it's own. It does not have any free will without consciousness.

Universe = action/reaction.
Conscious = reason/understanding.

Our consciousness and state of being allows us to make choices. We are able to see action/reaction and are aware of it. We can see reasons why the ball made an arc in the air, and because of that we can choose which actions to take based on that understanding.

When you program, you have to do it with logical statements. What is the logic behind consciousness?

Psychology really doesn't address this either. It is more a study on behavior patterns(used to date one).

And I'm not dancing around the issue. I don't know, I don't see them as saying much different outside the random/design bit. But we can discuss what each theory means reality is like and look at them logically.

[edit on 13-11-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by noobfun


Oh don't get me wrong. I think it is always worth trying, at anything in life.
Not just this.

The thing is though, i've been there. Read the book and bought the T-Shirt as it were. All i really got in return was frustration.

As a youngster, I couldn't believe people, in the 20th century (well, it was then) could be so, rediculously gullible! I was actually both dissapointed AND dissolusioned at the apparent lack of basic fundamentals.

The black and whiteness of the bible, the people that tried to brainwash me with the fairytales and ghost stories, all contributed to my frustration and incredulity.

A girl i was with for a number of years as a teenager, was from a family of what i would term religious idiots. (never could answer a rational, sensible question about religion with an answer in kind), we eventually parted as i slowly but completely lost all respect for her reasoning powers, and basic, everyday sense.

Course, you can try mate. Even better if you can learn a few things along the way. But, take it from me...the everyday person who calls him/herself a religious person usually is not. They are simply conditioned. There are of course exceptions, but in general terms, that's my experience.

I've long since trying to make people 'see the light'.

Where does that euphemism come from i wonder. Lucifer was the light bringer, showing the light may mean showing us that magic and god like actions are really just technological trickery, used to enslave and subjugate. Perhaps Lucifer has been getting bad press ever since for trying to warn us and put us wise to a smoke and mirrors routine.

Who knows.

Good luck though...you're gonna need it i think! ;-)

spikey.

I little lesson about "context" for you people that are willfully choosing to ignore it:

Kill. - That's kind of a bad statement.
Kill all. - That's a worse statement.
Kill all people. - That's something that will get you thrown into an institution, if not prison.

Now to put the above statements in context:

If we kill all people there's nobody left to love.

Wow, it's not so bad now!

There are very few scriptures that can be read and understood alone, especially like the one in question. But trying explain that to someone who doesn't want to believe in God and his entire message is pointless.

reply to post by spikey


Since beginning to argue on these boards, 3 people (I think) who have come to their senses about this stuff, so for some, these efforts have not been in vain.

Originally posted by badmedia

Can call it ID if you want. I mean really these are all theories. All we can do is try to find flaws in the logic.

im tired its been a long day so im only gonna supply the short version,

Hypothesis: This is an educated guess based upon observation. It is a rational explanation of a single event or phenomenon based upon what is observed, but which has not been proved. Most hypotheses can be supported or refuted by experimentation or continued observation.

Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.

evolution is a theory like gravity and relativity and special relativity

Id is an hypothesis, as is the magic pixies of pluto did it, i turned round to put the kettle on and it all just appeared while i wasnt looking

and my own hypothesis of what gravity really is

everybody loves a hug and so does matter so it all gets closer in the hope bieng hugged

the logic is pretty simple

ID= all evidence points to evolution
Evolution = all evidence points to this not ID

ID its self doesnt even have a proper hypothesis behind it, it just trys to prove evolution wrong so it can pretend that makes it right

The question at it's core is if things happened randomly, or if they happened by design.

random mutation (in its self misnomer) is part of the process but not the process

its firmly regulated by the process of natural selection

the most random thing about evolution is peoples misunderstanding

According to science, everything is action/reaction. In a world of action/reaction, choice is not allowed. Because your choice is really just a reaction to the action if true. Every event is just the reaction of the previous event, and the reaction triggers another reaction on so on.

random is just somthing unexpected happening the fact you didnt expect it makes it random not the fact it happened

Randomness is not allowed. If a theory isn't repeatable in a lab each and every time, then the theory is said to be false. Yet in Darwins theory, we are allowed to have randomness.

if it isnt testable or repeatable it isnt a thoery its an hypothesis and so yes its false until proven other wise

drop somthing numerous times and you notice a testable repeatable pattern emerges

and mutation in evolution is termed random as it isnt guided, mutations are expected we know several of the causes, where they occur have a randomness to them and this is regualted by natural selection

expected action in an unexpected place its only semi random

If it's just chemicals in the brain and such that cause our reactions and actions, then that is a direct result of a previous action.

in many cases yes sometimes its only a percieved action not an actual one

The problem is choice. We have choice. We have free will. The universe we live in is action/reaction based. But we are not. Our consciousness is not action/reaction based, although people certainly are pushed into being action/reaction based, because when you can predict the reaction then you can control it by certain actions.

much of your brain is action/reaction based thats why we have reactions and automated respeonses to internal and external stimuli

and free will is not actually free its constrained, you are presented with a problem you have a limited number of actions you can take in response to it, many factors come into play including personal psychology and personal knowledge

people become predicatable as we are creatures of habit the only differance is the level of habitualisation displayed by some individuals compared to others

free will can be circumvented it just needs stimuli strong enough to overide concious control and get the intinctual to fire on all cylinders

different people show different levels of stimul needed (agains personal psychology learned response and other factors come into play)

So in order for that virus to go on it's own and evolve, it has to somehow override it's code and make the choice for itself to do so.

no it just needs to alter its self regarding its surrounding the more it adapts to its surroundings the further it distances its self from other viruses using different methods to circumvent threats in its ecology. sooner or later these changes will alter it enough that it stops bieng malicious further changes then could lead it to take on different roles with the enviroment it inhabits

You can program it to do those things, but then it's just following and doing the logic you gave it, it is not doing anything on it's own. It does not have any free will without consciousness.

only becasue our ability in programming and coding are not up to the level of matching biological activity

Our consciousness and state of being allows us to make choices. We are able to see action/reaction and are aware of it. We can see reasons why the ball made an arc in the air, and because of that we can choose which actions to take based on that understanding.

a gazelle can see the lion approaching and makes a choice do i run now or wait and see what happens, do i alert the others now or wait till it gets closer, are gazelle concious on the same level as us? they are stimulater and make a judgemnet on thier personal experience

When you program, you have to do it with logical statements. What is the logic behind consciousness?

but if we didnt have a creator to program us as is then no you dont need perfect logic

the human brian is like a badly programmed system with many internal linked programs they tend to fight crash each other and do strange things as well as work reasonably well

our understanding of conciousness so far leads psychologists to beleive that its not a great aweinspiring perfect construct, more the results of bits added here and there and all of it made in a it will do manner

a better understanding ill send you out to find information on the specific bits your interested in i know some behavioural psychology but it a subject far to complex for me to dive into with just my knowledge

Psychology really doesn't address this either. It is more a study on behavior patterns(used to date one).

its a misnomer - the brain is semi haphazard and counterintuative it doesnt work on logic alone so cant be explained by pure logic

And I'm not dancing around the issue. I don't know, I don't see them as saying much different outside the random/design bit. But we can discuss what each theory means reality is like and look at them logically.

you dont know you admit it none of us really know, its all the best guess we have now that how science works, the best understanding we have now it changes and grows its an adaptive system otherwise it would be a religeon and we would all carry gold testube effigeies around our neck and beleive in the great microscope in the sky

but despite fundamentalists insistances this doesnt make it wrong or nearly wrong just mostly right and the rest is being worked on

theres a lot to look into and learn for all of us and as they say theres no time like the present(except i have a headache and its taken me an hour to write this so ill save my search for the morning ^_^ )

[edit on 13/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by feydrautha
reply to post by The Stand

 

the old testament is old covenenant. the new testament is the new covenant.

the o.t. is mostly jewish tribal law (some of it harsh, but necessary for the time), and the usual parables; life stories.

it is now okay to eat pork, hold a womans hand who is menstrating, etc...

christianity is very simple, obey the 10 commandments and recognise the christ as the messiah.

and thats all.

any questions?

I agree with all of your statements except

christianity is very simple, obey the 10 commandments and recognise the christ as the messiah.

People fail at trying to obey the 10 commandments...this is why Jesus came-to make a new and lasting covenant with us that is not contingent upon our ability to perform--that was the whole reason for the sacrifice of Jesus, the whole reason we need a messiah.
Galations 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galations 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

this is the true gospel that most ppl arent aware of.

[edit on 13-11-2008 by GladTidings]

[edit on 13-11-2008 by GladTidings]

Originally posted by GladTidings

the old testament is old covenenant. the new testament is the new covenant

the o.t. is mostly jewish tribal law (some of it harsh, but necessary for the time), and the usual parables; life stories.

but jesus said to obey all gods laws included in the old testament like stoning kids not eating rabbits and all the other wonderful crazyness of a loving genocidal jealous petty infanticidal confused god with an inferiority complex

the new covenant is a not from jesus but from the church


p.s. theres a magic button called edit, if you press it you can correct the faults in the post


[edit on 13/11/08 by noobfun]

"the new covenant is a not from jesus but from the church"

****You have no evidence or any substantiation for this but your opinion. In fact due to the birth of Jesus, death and resurrection he did give us a new covenant because he had taken the burden of sin from us. Mankind was not under the law and judgment of God because Jesus took the punishment and gave this new commandment because of that. It comes directly from his own words. YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!!!!!






reply to post by noobfun

Lets see if we can sort this all out. First of all, read chapter 31 from the beginning, to get the whole story. In Verse 2 it says "Avenge the children of Israel of Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people".

Now, who were the Midianites? Read about them here: www.themystica.com...

Now read verse 16 ""Behold, these caused the chidren of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam (Balaam did not do what God had told him to do) to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord".

Now, who was Peor? The Moabite god who appears both as a male sun-god and a female moon-goddess. His name means 'lord of Peor', referring to Mount Peor. Peor was nott a person but a mountain where the pagan worshippers went to practice pagan worship.

Now look at verse 15. "Have ye saved all the women alive?. Verse 16: "Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass againe the lord in the matter of Peor (a place of pagan worship)and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord".

Now to verse 17: "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him? The males would grow up to continue the worship of the pagan god. And the women who "hath known man by lying with him". In other words women who would have given birth or who were young enough to give birth, to the next generation of pagan worshippers.

Verse 18. "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. In other words the Israelites women would train their children to worship the Hold God.

I hope this will help you understand the verses you posted. Alway read the verses from the beginning to get the whole idea of "who, what, when, and why".

The Bible was written specifically for our time. The prophesies at that time and even after it was translated by the writings of eyewitnesses, still could not be made possible until modern times.

The OT and NT is the same God but the world was in two different conditions at the time. The birth of Jesus, [God incarnate] changed all of that.




reply to post by Tayesin