Near-death experiences are real and we have the proof, say scientists

Originally posted by Pericle
Their discovery is very real, and they came to a very good conclusion. Mind and brain are not the same thing.

The brain is a concentration of cells higher than anywhere on the body, BUT all cells have a mind of their own. The mind is everywhere, but because of that high concentration in the brain, you tend to think your mind is in your head, which is false.

When your brain dies, your mind does not die at all. It just transferes to another state of being, no loger connected to the physical attributes of the body. This is why NDE feel like you deconnect with your body, but you're still there alive.

You cannot die, just change form, awareness, etc.

Yeah that's a pretty profound way of looking at it. I like it. It fits.

If my NDE and two OBE's have taught me anything, it's that the physical body is simply like wearing a coat. While we are in our physical bodies, we are restricted & confined by it's limitations, but outside of it, there are no such limitations.

reply to post by melatonin

Not really hundreds of times. To really accept it as a valid viewpoint I would hope to see a few controlled scientific studies confirming the presence of sentient floating minds. One would be a start, though.

I've seen controlled studies showing the production of OBEs in the lab and as the result of brain lesions. Seem quite mundane really. Is quite an experience from a personal POV, of course. So is swimming with dolphins

But if one single time someone show you a irrefutable proof about it, even if never again it can be repeated, it's enough to know that it's real. Will be absurd after this to refuse belive in this reality.
In this controlled experiments the subject never return with a prophecy (that later take place) or had the complexity of a real NDE... There is the difference between a simulation of pain or burn your hand and feel pain, the first is a simulation, with no meaning, the second is about a real event. So maybe this is another proof in favour about the reality of NDE
Correct me if im mistake.

Again, we can see the assumptions coming through. Dead? Really? How do you know this?

Secondly. I could guess fairly well right now what a doctor would be doing whilst resuscitating me. Blame House MD. And, again, Memories are not some sort of uncorruptable data file.

Controlled studies are needed.

As far as i had read thousands of times the patient had the eyes CLOSED, but described something happening around him, with colors and details.There is no possible explanation.
Some subjects return to live in the morge, cold, with heart stopped and no observable breathing.Being in this state for HOURS.So dead with no observable diferences beetwen this state and real death. As i repeat they have no brain damage. Not even a single loose of memory or faculties, on the contrary some subjects experience a higher conscienciousnes for weeks after it. So i think it's very close to death. If not really death.
The problem here is that WE CANNOT CONTROLL this experiences,i repeat that for me this does not mean it's not real.

However, many people in these cases, and certainly in the best NDE study were undergoing resuscitation. That's the thing where someone pumps oxygen into your lungs and blood round your body.
In other cases you want to make extrapolations from some average (i.e. ususally within 5 mins brains are dead/pickled) and apply it to every case even without evidence that the brain was dead/pickled. Exceptions to the norm are the norm. On the cold thing, when the body is cold it reduces cell damage.

As i said some cases i had read return to live in the morgue.

I want to add a point with a difficult material explanation. The brain activity required to experience a NDE need to be even higer than a dream.The colours, feelings even tastes, conversation, prophecies, lessons, are not only real for the patient, but even sometimes more real that reality. If we can detect a dream, or we can detect brain activity related to majority of experiences, WHY a far more complex experience, that will consume even more energy, that require complex proces of thinking(your brain have to simulate the intelligence of dead relatives and angels and superior beings speaking with you, something a live will have a hard time to achieve) leave no detectable brain acitvity and take place in a period were the subject is in very low oxigen level?, how this can be achieved with no brain damage?

Easy, it's not taking place in the brain it's the more obvious explanation i think.

Again if im mistake please correct me.

Originally posted by REIKUKI
But if one single time someone show you a irrefutable proof about it, even if never again it can be repeated, it's enough to know that it's real. Will be absurd after this to refuse belive in this reality.

You can't provide it. What you can provide is a number of uncontrolled anecdotal reports in books and/or videos, like lots of people have done.

I laid out my standards repeatedly. If you have other standards, that's fine. Why bother convincing me to lower mine? I'm not expecting you to raise yours.

In this controlled experiments the subject never return with a prophecy (that later take place) or had the complexity of a real NDE... There is the difference between a simulation of pain or burn your hand and feel pain, the first is a simulation, with no meaning, the second is about a real event. So maybe this is another proof in favour about the reality of NDE
Correct me if im mistake.

In this controlled experiment, if done honestly and properly, it should provide good reliable data that people are able to float out of their body and report hidden stimuli during near death experiences.

That's a fair standard to expect in science, and this is a thread about scientists doing a study.

It won't even matter if they are brain dead; really, really dead; cold and wet; haven't had a heartbeat for twenty minutes; have been dancing around the pearly gates. In the hospital room will be randomised images, if a sentient mind can float about during particular events, they could well report the stimuli. This depends on doing well-controlled interviews with no likelihood of leading/priming the patients. The doctors involved are going to do this at several hospitals across the world for a few years.

This has been done more than once before with nothing to report, but we'll wait and see what we get this time. At least I will.

As far as i had read thousands of times the patient had the eyes CLOSED, but described something happening around him, with colors and details.There is no possible explanation.

Yeah, the brain's great at making narrative, visual or otherwise. Does it all the time.

There's lots of possible explanations. When a patient suffers a cardiac arrest, their heart stops, blood and oxygen stops reaching the brain. Someone in the room starts pumping blood and oxygen around the body. However, at no point can you show the brain was dead. If the brain is not dead, then consciousness of varying levels is possible. Lets say there is a period when the brain is truly inactive - you can't even show that any potential brain 'death' (i.e., no activity) correlates with the NDE experience. Perhaps the experience occurs before or after any possible period of brain 'death'.

Doesn't matter that the eyes are closed. Hearing things is sufficient. Activity in the subcortical areas of the brain would be sufficient - it has enough sensory input. Amazingly, when I read a good fictional story, I'm able to create visual narrative in my mind readily enough - colours and everything. I can even recall tastes. The mind's great at representing experiences.

The fact you say there is no other explanation is telling. Many keep making this error. You want so much for this to be true that you can't be bothered going beyond the folk explanation. Of course, that's your perogative.

Some subjects return to live in the morge, cold, with heart stopped and no observable breathing.Being in this state for HOURS.So dead with no observable diferences beetwen this state and real death. As i repeat they have no brain damage. Not even a single loose of memory or faculties, on the contrary some subjects experience a higher conscienciousnes for weeks after it. So i think it's very close to death. If not really death.

Heh, there's a difference between not death and real death. Trust me. In one, you stay dead and rot. It's sort of definitional. Hence why they call the experience 'near death'.

Medicine is much less than a perfect science. Doctors don't have Star Trek-like hand-held life detectors. They have a few instruments/measures that taken together can suggest the presence of death.

None are certain and beyond error. For example, flatline EEG can be suggestive of brain death, however, it is much much less than perfect, it can't show activity ot lack thereof in subcortical areas of the brain very well at all. Thus, someone who is dead would have lack of EEG, however, someone who has some level of brain activity can also show the same. The absence of a beating heart is also not an ideal sign of death. But it can suggest that the individual is heading that way.

Doctors can even fail to get PVS correct, hence the study were one was able to play tennis in their mind when prompted. Doctors are human, you see. And to err is human.

The problem here is that WE CANNOT CONTROLL this experiences,i repeat that for me this does not mean it's not real.

Cool.

I've already said that I accept that the experience is real. They exist. Just like dreams exist.

As i said some cases i had read return to live in the morgue.

You just keep giving me anecdote. I have outlined my expectations for a scientific study. The people undertaking the study appear to have similar standards for science (although Parnia is a True Believer).

Easy, it's not taking place in the brain

it's the more obvious explanation i think.

Again if im mistake please correct me.

Yeah, that's why we have science - to empirically constrain wild assumption.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by melatonin]

Well i read you and i think you are accepting that we have no knowledge about what is happening in a NDE, is it true?

Originally posted by REIKUKI
Well i read you and i think you are accepting that we have no knowledge about what is happening in a NDE, is it true?

just because you are too lazy to look at science journal it doesn't mean every is like you. science have many explanations how NDEs are being caused. scientists created a device that lets you see your body from the outside just like out of body experience. that mystery is already solved. NDE will be solved in the upcoming researches and developments once and for all

reply to post by hypnoticka


That still does not explain veridical NDE's...

reply to post by hypnoticka

just because you are too lazy to look at science journal it doesn't mean every is like you.

As someone who registered on ATS only yesterday you firstly insult me (a couple of pages ago, with the appropriate penalty applied) and now you come back and launch a personal assault on REIKUKI, who was simply engaging in an intelligent conversation with melatonin. Who do you think you are?

science have many explanations how NDEs are being caused

Hypotheses, actually. Nothing more. Ideas and suggestions. Get your science right.

scientists created a device that lets you see your body from the outside just like out of body experience. that mystery is already solved.

Your gullibility is breathtaking. Quite apart from the fact that a simulation is a far cry from reality, you assume a single study can "solve" a mystery. Bunkum.

NDE will be solved in the upcoming researches and developments once and for all

I refer you to my esteemed colleague, melatonin, for a reply (from earlier in this discussion, which perhaps you might take the trouble of studying, seeing as you are not lazy):

...Our work will prove one way or the otherwhether a form of consciousness carries on after the body and brain has died.”

Eek!

It won't. It will just be one study that pushes the barometer one way or t'other. Replication is the norm. Indeed, even after 100 studies it won't be 'proven'.

At least mel understands and acknowledges the limits of science.

Originally posted by REIKUKI
Well i read you and i think you are accepting that we have no knowledge about what is happening in a NDE, is it true?

We can extrapolate from other studies and knowledge about the brain. Thus, there is good enough reason to accept minds are what brains do (i.e., mind = brain). There are decent enough potential scientific explanations of NDEs and OBEs that don't involve disembodied minds. None are fleshed out very well.

Thus, OBEs appear to involve dysfunction in areas of the temporal-parietal junction that underpins spatial awareness of self/body. Not a great extension to apply this to NDEs.

However, it's pretty hard to really study an NDE due to its very nature. It can involve a number of phenomena, from OBEs to narratives to emotional and perceptual events. We can collect people's experiences and the results of such experiences but to, say, throw someone in fMRI or MEG isn't really possible.

In sum, even though we have some basic ideas people still want to believe that minds can float and some report anecdotes of veridical NDEs, so perhaps it's worth investigating further. And this study is one way to do so.

As noted, though, it isn't the first time Parnia and others have tried this, so hopefully they'll bother to publish data this time.

You ever noticed that those who have these experience's always see the light,feel loved etc.Surely there must be those who are classed as unrepentant sinners and would therefore not have heaven as there destination.You never get a demonic voice telling them that it isn't there time yet.

And what about those who can have out of body experiences while being very much alive?

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by hypnoticka

 

i got science right(not my science) but Science itself , you deny every scientific explanation because it doesn't fit in your religious dogma

this device was created by european scientists that lets you experience out of body experience, it was on the news last year. i don't need to say more you are living in denial

we live in 2008 not in 1008, we have enough technology to discover things, recently scientists turned off a sadness memory while keep good memory function. this was a great achievement in neuro science that may one day turn off your religious delusional cells.




[edit on 11-11-2008 by hypnoticka]

[edit on 11-11-2008 by hypnoticka]

[edit on 11-11-2008 by hypnoticka]

[edit on 11-11-2008 by hypnoticka]

Post a link to the device that you are talking about, hypnoticka.

reply to post by jakyll

You ever noticed that those who have these experience's always see the light,feel loved etc.Surely there must be those who are classed as unrepentant sinners and would therefore not have heaven as there destination.

Nice question jakyll.

According to the teaching of the Bible

God is love

1 John 4:16

and Christ was the incarnation of the same.

Therefore when a person leaves this world and is ushered into God's presence, guess what overwhelms them?

Unutterable love.

With respect to someone who has not confessed and turned from rebellion against their Maker's laws they will subsequently face judgement.

That God's love does not abrogate his justice was demonstrated on the Cross. His love being so perfect He was willing to take the just penalty for law-breakers Himself. The injustice of a perfect Man, the Son of God, being spurned by God the Father and utterly forsaken by man and God on the Cross was sufficient to counterbalance God's just requirement that every transgression of His law be met with justice.

There are many reports of people being overwhelmed by the light and the love, but then recoiling as the perfection of God exposes the deepest core of their being, such that they are overwhelmed by shame, and recoil from the light with great urgency.

The following is one such example (-yet in extraordinary mercy God allowed this man to return and seek cleansing and forgiveness):

Google Video Link

And what about those who can have out of body experiences while being very much alive?

The Apostle Paul possibly had one such experience, although it was so real he said he couldn't tell whether he was in or out of the body. As you know, he experienced Heaven in this state, although he had not died.

The myriad personal accounts of being out of the body fit the biblical teaching that the body is 'a tent for the soul' perfectly.


reply to post by hypnoticka

recently scientists turned off a sadness memory while keep good memory function.

Having studied neurology I can tell you this comes as no surprise whatsoever, at least at a gross theoretical level. During operations neurosurgeons often ask the (conscious) patient questions to determine the degree to which their incisions are affecting particular functions, such as language. On the other hand I have to express a degree of skepticism as to the efficiency and efficacy of the procedure you have outlined. Memories are stored in the brain in the form of a neuronal matrix so complex that even if a particular level of memory were physically erased in one location, associated memories which would encapsulate aspects of the memory initially 'erased' would remain.

this was a great achievement in neuro science that may one day turn off your religious delusional cells.

More insults, and more jumping to conclusions.

My faith is based on an assessment of historical events and associated data, which the scientific method cannot address seeing as they are not replicable.

Maybe it's time for you to address your own - ahem - susceptibility to the one-dimensional dogma that human beings have no grounds for spirituality.




[edit on 11/11/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
So yes, your life experiences and beliefs do influence the way you interpret the experience, however the experience itself can include bits the mind could not have imagined, and that even after you are back, when thinking about it, you cannot make your mind recreate satisfactorily.

You can say the same about dreams. I've had many, many dreams of things I've never seen before, not in the real world or any medium(tv, internet, newspaper etc.). Am I traveling to another dimention or out of body every time I dream? No. I believe it's much like when an artist is awake and thinking of a new design for a painting, every bit of collected data can be rearanged, recolored, sized, exaggerate and even unique creations added. The sleeping mind can do the same as the awake, better.

There is something to it. I disagree that it is your mind that survives death, if you go far enough, but consciousness itself does. It simply isnt as personal as your mind is.

Science hasn't clearly defined the difference between the mind and conscience. How do we know our mind(conscience, spirit, awareness) isn't larger than our whole bodies? We don't know. No scientific proof has ever been convincing enough to record any of this as fact.

But of course every control-freak preacher from miles around will jump at any and every opportunity to sell their snake oil to the masses at the slightest unfounded testimonial. Nothing new there.









[edit on 11-11-2008 by mmariebored]

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by jakyll

 

i'm a former catholic if you didn't know that, who are you to correct what you don't know ?. you are even denying the findings as if you were a scientist haha give me a brake a lady.

NDEs are affected by cultures and thoughts, if you were born in religious countries where religion is debatable and cultural you are more likely to experience these fantasies whether is islam,christianity,hindu,buddhism or lack of beliefs

about the one who asked about this device:

forum.grasscity.com...

reply to post by Dock6


Yes there are many things which can not be explained by science.
Does that mean that you have to go to the most extraordinary scenario of "we have an afterlife"?
The key thing that you should know is that there ARE theories on NDEs which have more bases than any religious explanation.
If you had lived hundreds of years ago, just because we had no data that the Earth was round, would you believe that it was flat?
Just because we lack the data now does not mean that there is no data.
There will be future discoveries in science as there have always been.

Yes we do have a '6th sense' if you could call it that. We sometimes sense things a split second before it happens. There are studies - scientific studies, which show that there is something more to our brain.
It's more powerful than a super computer, yet our conscious mind is about as powerful as a calculator (in some respects).
Is it so amazing to believe that our mind, when fully unleashed, can sense objects in a room and recreate it in our mind?
Modern studies in science seem to suggest that everything is connected.
If this is the case, then perhaps we subconsciously know things that we wouldn't think would be possible.

Does that mean that there's an afterlife?
No.
Do animals also have an afterlife?
What is an afterlife?
Would we merely be floating around for eternity, looking down at others as in an OBE?
If so, what would be the bases for this?
It's all speculation on data which we know nothing about - at the moment.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Post a link to the device that you are talking about, hypnoticka.

As your post attracted 3 stars, I assume people are eager to know about this. So, I'll answer for the other dude/dudette.

It's part of Olaf Blanke's research.

Science. 2007 Aug 24;317(5841):1096-9. Links

Video ergo sum: manipulating bodily self-consciousness.Lenggenhager B, Tadi T, Metzinger T, Blanke O.

Laboratory of Cognitive Neuroscience, Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne, Station 15, 1015 Lausanne, Switzerland.

Humans normally experience the conscious self as localized within their bodily borders. This spatial unity may break down in certain neurological conditions such as out-of-body experiences, leading to a striking disturbance of bodily self-consciousness. On the basis of these clinical data, we designed an experiment that uses conflicting visual-somatosensory input in virtual reality to disrupt the spatial unity between the self and the body. We found that during multisensory conflict, participants felt as if a virtual body seen in front of them was their own body and mislocalized themselves toward the virtual body, to a position outside their bodily borders. Our results indicate that spatial unity and bodily self-consciousness can be studied experimentally and are based on multisensory and cognitive processing of bodily information.

linky

Shows how OBEs can be produced by providing dissonant sensory information. He has other studies showing how dysfunction in the temporal-parital junction can induce similar effects.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
That still does not explain veridical NDE's...

Does "my soul floats above my body when I die" explain it?
I wonder how people have memories of these events if their brains are dead.
Doesn't the brain have to be very much alive to form a memory?

I suppose we would have to dismiss certain studies of the brain in order to accept this theory?

Seems like a stretch.
Especially when I could think of far more plausible explanations than the 'soul' or 'floating mind' or whatever you're calling it.

reply to post by hypnoticka

i'm a former catholic if you didn't know that, who are you to correct what you don't know ?. you are even denying the findings as if you were a scientist haha give me a brake a lady

Firstly I would like to politely request that you fix your code so it doesn't look like you are quoting me as saying I'm a former Catholic (- which is apparrently your own self-designation). Try the FAQs at the top of the page or do a search on 'BB code'.

who are you to correct what you don't know ?

Firstly, I was responding directly to your facetious, condescending aspersion about "religious delusional cells". Perhaps you have some spiritual inklings yourself, but consider your own non-delusional, whereas those that differ from your own are only worthy of derision!

Secondly, your ad hominem "as if you were a scientist" attack demonstrates

a) it is you who are 'correcting what you don't know', as you put it

b) you appear ignorant of the fact that countless numbers of scientists at every level and across the globe hold to the same Christian faith I do

c) ignorance of what a scientist is, in that it merely refers to one who practices science, not one who excludes all other forms of knowledge and learning - which has more to do with the materialist/humanist/atheist agenda

d) your every post in this thread to date contains evidence of a most odious patronizing attitude to those you disagree with

NDEs are affected by cultures and thoughts, if you were born in religious countries where religion is debatable and cultural you are more likely to experience these fantasies whether is islam,christianity,hindu,buddhism or lack of beliefs

Yet more personal assumptions, untested hypotheses and derogatory, condescending remarks.

I've seen nothing in your contributions that exceeds a pompous disregard for other people's contributions. What on earth are you doing in a discussion forum, one defined by mutual respect, to wit?!




[edit on 11/11/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by hypnoticka

 

who are you to correct what you don't know ?

Firstly, I was responding directly to your facetious, condescending aspersion about "religious delusional cells". Perhaps you have some spiritual inklings yourself, but consider your own non-delusional, whereas those that differ from your own are only worthy of derision!

Secondly, your ad hominem "as if you were a scientist" attack demonstrates

a) it is you who are 'correcting what you don't know', as you put it

b) you appear ignorant of the fact that countless numbers of scientists at every level and across the globe hold to the same Christian faith I do

c) ignorance of what a scientist is, in that the merely refers to one who practices science, not one who excludes all other forms of knowledge and learning - which has more to do with the materialist/humanist/atheist agenda

d) your every post in this thread to date contains evidence of a most odious patronizing attitude to those you disagree with

NDEs are affected by cultures and thoughts, if you were born in religious countries where religion is debatable and cultural you are more likely to experience these fantasies whether is islam,christianity,hindu,buddhism or lack of beliefs

Yet more personal assumptions, untested hypotheses and derogatory, condescending remarks.

I've seen nothing in your contributions that exceed a pompous disregard for other people's contributions. What on earth are you doing in a discussion forum, one defined by mutual self-respect, to wit?!

the ignorant is you because you think your religion is the right one and the others are crap, there are other religious scientists as well, 99% of the scientific community doesn't support your religion for example francis collins who is a born again christians accepted evolution.

"Many people want it to be a religious, paranormal or supernatural phenomenon. The fact that NDEs can be explained scientifically detracts from the mystique. - Mark Mahowald, director of the Minnesota Regional Sleep Disorders Center"

www.time.com...