American Patriotism Terrifies me!!

Originally posted by dooper

Click here for more information.

Well, I am not really sure how that answers the point but thanks for contributing anyway. You get a star!

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
thats an american construct, like patriotism!

do you REALLY and TRULY think Patriotism was invented in America?

You should do just a TEENIE WEENIE bit of study on history my friend....
Shall I mention the Egyptians, Greeks and the Romans here? And China is a far far older culture than most even imagine......I mean come on.....you don't think The Mongol Hordes were showing just a little patriotism?......Scotland, Ireland anyone??
The middle east written of in the Bible?
I mean come on

Amercia constructed patriotism?
REALLY? you honestly think that



[edit on 1-11-2008 by theRiverGoddess]

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

The US military is not - and I repeat not - going to attack Americans. This scenario is beyond ridiculous!

... [cut down because of the size of quote against the size of response!]

I know, it's good to think that the world is against you. This relieves one of any personal responsibility, as everything is hopeless and already decided.

That's pitiful.

Hey, Dooper!

It's not actually my argument. I'm merely extrapolating on someone else's argument. Whilst I'd like to think my own distrust of present governments is a healthy one, I'm not the one who thinks I need a gun because the government could turn on me. Which is surely the context and the point of that amendment?

So, why not actually start posting your comment to all the survivalists stocking weapons and food in the belief that the government is going to come a'knocking? Why not point out to them that the amendment's a bit of a farce in that respect and that it's all about the muggers and rapists rather than some fantastically patriotic guff about standing up for the country when the government goes bad?

reply to post by Merriman Weir

Merriman, I've read your posts, and on this particular thread, it primarily concerns Americans, their patriotism, and gun ownership. According to what I can determine, you live in England, and are female.

What, precisely, interest of yours is it what we in the US do, here in the US? Does anything we do here, more specifically, does our patriotism, our guns, our gun ownership, our Constitution, or our personal preferences take any food off your plate?

Your ongoing argument seems to be against personal gun ownership, and you time and again support this preference by stating our military force, using planes, tanks, artillery, bombs, and the like would easily overwhelm any civilian resistance. Time and again you state that firearms in the hands of civilians would not be enough to use against a powerful military, therefore private ownership of weapons is unjustified. One hole in this argument of yours is that our US military consists of young Americans. So you can give this worn-out argument a rest. An all-out assault by our military on our civilians, and thus our civilian militia simply isn't going to happen.

Have you ever called in or adjusted artillery while under fire? Have you ever patrolled against armed opposing forces? Have you ever engaged an enemy multiple times, under multiple conditions, in multiple terrain? What's the best tactic against guerrillas in a jungle? A marsh? A forest? Mountains? A city? While traveling? During rain, what does this do for either side? What's the longest shot you ever took that resulted in a kill?

There's another thing to think about with your assumptions concerning the ability of our military to rule here in our country. We had 500,000 troops in Viet Nam. Lots of helicopters, gunships, fighters, bombers, artillery - you name it. This is in a country of 331,000 square kilometers. England by contrast is 243,000 square kilometers, which is the same size as our state of Michigan.

The US is 9.8 million square kilometers. That 500,000 we had in Vietnam is fully one-third of our current military.

In Vietnam, every time a patrol left a firebase, they immediately were in "Injun Country," subject to ambush and attack 24/7. Here's the kicker. The Vietnamese as a people were unarmed.

You are comparing marbles to pumpkins.

While anyone can get information on warfare, weapons, and statistics, I don't see where your personal experiences give you any particular insight. You can throw all the hypothetical assumptions you want to out there, but the real world is a bit different. Everyone who's served in combat in the military knows that that meticulous plan goes to hell in the first moments of contact.

Not one, single American gun owner is bothering you personally. We aren't shooting up your land. We aren't threatening you. We aren't even in your country. So why in hell would American patriotism, or American gun owners terrify you? That makes no sense.

The last time Americans came in number to your country, we brought millions of guns, and I don't recall a lot of complaining.

Quite simply, you don't have a dog in this fight. You don't even have a dog on this continent.

Originally posted by dooper

Quite simply, you don't have a dog in this fight. You don't even have a dog on this continent.

I do!

So far the best you can do in the face of my arguments is get mad, ramble, and misconstrue what you read to try to mangle it into some kind of off topic point.

I have a dog in this fight, a big one.

Please do not blow off someone's ideas because you do not feel they have a dog in your fight. To be honest, I think your dog is tired, weak, a little simple in the head, and needs to be put down.

HERE IS MY DOG, COME GET IT!

reply to post by Lucifer Rising


I keep my dog with me, caliber .45ACP. Tucked in tight, right at hand, in the car, in bed, out for a walk, while shopping.

And no, you really have no dog in this. My behavior and habits affect you not one bit. You just like bitching about something you either can't afford, don't understand, can't fully utilize, or are scared of.

You have your preferences, I have mine.

reply to post by dooper


See, there you go again just saying random things for no reason that are somehow supposed to make a point. We allready covered this. I have my CCP. I am armed, I just do not feel that I ever need to be, nor does it somehow epitomize patriotism to me. Life just worked out this way. I can afford it, I do understand it, and I utilized it quite often.
The difference is, I am not on a thread about patriotism spending pages and pages claiming that what makes me patriotic is my arsenal that I have at the ready to shoot other Americans with.

See the difference?

You not only are anticipating using your weapons against fellow Americans, you seem to like the idea. While you claim you need your guns to be patriotic because it is your right to keep the government from becoming tyrannical, you then spend pages explaining how that can never happen anyway. So you do not seem to understand why you need to have guns to be patriotic, but you sure like talking about it.

reply to post by Lucifer Rising

Lets see. You have a concealed permit, you are armed, but you feel this is unnecessary. That's a lot of trouble to go to without any benefit.

You can afford it, you understand it, and you've used it often. Used it often, but no benefit?

This is really confusing.

Without benefit, without a need, you could really save some money on permits, sell your weapons, and buy something nice for the little lady.

Or like me, do you personally prefer this easy access to weapons? See? That's a personal choice. Just like mine.

I don't recall saying my guns make me patriotic. I have addressed folks that come up with dumbass ideas about our military attacking US civilians, how inept the civilians would be, and other idiotic generalizations. These folks are first and foremost gun haters and haters of gun owners.

I'm about as popular as a dose of the clap with pacifists, gun-haters, gun-owner haters, goober smoochers, America haters, false-fact presenters, amateur proctologists, socialists, communists, foreigners who want to impose their personal beliefs on us in the US, racists, fanatics, Israel-haters, professional worry generators, Muslims, recipients of alien anal probes, and even beanie babies. I probable left out a few score others, but I think you get the picture.

Maybe you confused me with someone else. I do feel patriotic as I have fought, bled, and killed under my flag. While no longer in the military, even as a civilian, I am still armed. My arms don't make me patriotic. My spirit makes me patriotic.

I never stated that I am prepared and certainly don't relish the thought of killing other Americans, although you and I both know there's a number that certainly need it. I never hesitate though to kill threatening animals. Some walk on two legs.

I don't know about you, but killing never sat well on my supper. But what upset me even more was to see innocent, unarmed men, women, and sometimes children killed simply because they were peaceful and unarmed. And to tell you the truth, when I tracked them down and caught these men, there were no prisoners taken. No mercy, no remorse. Oddly, a bit of satisfaction.

You choose and deal with your enemies how you will. I'll handle my own.

Free choice, and all of that . . . . patriotic stuff.

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Lucifer Rising

 

Lets see. You have a concealed permit, you are armed, but you feel this is unnecessary. That's a lot of trouble to go to without any benefit.

You can afford it, you understand it, and you've used it often. Used it often, but no benefit?

This is really confusing.

Yes it is confusing. Do I really need to justify to you why I went through those steps. There could be many reasons outside of 'just because' and 'because I am afraid of everyone and everything in my country.' You really seem to be stuck with just those two choices. That is ok. I do not need you to understand anything about me except for the fact that you are assuming things that have no bearing, nor relevance, and are incorrect.

As for the rest of your anti-american, anti-patriotic, I need my gun cuz everyone is gonna come an' git me, ranting. I will just let your own words speak for themselves for a change. If someone eventually comes along and agrees with you that you need to be ready to shoot Americans to be patriotic, and you need to be armed against the threat of a government that you also say will never turn on you, as well as the fact that you have a super weapon to both show how super patriotic you are, but also to defeat any attack coming from fellow American citizens or its military...then maybe I will bother. Until then, I think your own words are doing just fine in showing what you understand about patriotism and it is very little so far.

I will just remind you, you are the one going on about the reason that you need guns is to protect you from other Americans, both civillian and government. You have claimed over and over that you need to be armed due to the threat of what????? Muggers and tyrants. Both domestic in nature. Plan on hitting them with your guns?

I never stated that I am prepared and certainly don't relish the thought of killing other Americans, although you and I both know there's a number that certainly need it.

Yeah, I could not have let you put it any better myself.

[edit on 1-11-2008 by Lucifer Rising]

reply to post by Lucifer Rising

Lucifer! Such anger! Let's see. You have a concealed permit, you are armed, but you feel the concealed permit and concealed firearm is unnecessary.

Yep. It's still confusing.

You're armed, but you don't need to be. But you understand patriotism. I'm armed, and somehow that makes me want to kill Americans??, and I'm not patriotic.

You conceal carry, utilize it quite often; I conceal carry, don't use mine, and suddenly I'm the one afraid of everyone?

You supposedly carry a concealed weapon and you're patriotic, but because I carry a concealed weapon, I'm unpatriotic. Bear with me. Just having a bit of disconnection with your logic.

I served honorable on the field of battle for my country, and I'm unpatriotic? I missed something somewhere . . . gee, and all this time . . .

I'm not patriotic, but instead I'm suddenly superpatriotic because I have a superweapon? Folks, don't ever pick up that crack pipe the first time. I wish I did have a superweapon. I could save a lot of money on ammunition and reloading components, and even more time on the reloading press. Getting another $1,200 worth of brass, powder, and bullets next week - can I pick you up something? (Buying in bulk saves a lot of money.)

You then suggest that I'm armed against potential muggers? Yeah, I really hadn't thought that through before - but I suppose that a gun would come in handy for something like that. Is that a problem? Is the concept of self-defense a problem for you?

Of course not! You utilize your firearm "quite often." Somehow, I don't think I'm the danger here.

So what targets do you "quite often" service? Muggers? Assaults? Break-ins? Old folks homes?

Under these circumstances, at the first opportunity, I would suggest that you change neighborhood, avoid these seedy people, and refrain from engaging in whatever dangerous behavior you are engaged in.

We'd sure hate to lose you here on ATS.

reply to post by dooper


You are not patriotic because you already spent pages explaining that as a patriot you not only have the right, but the need to have guns. For what? You went on to explain the threats that you need them for. Americans. That was what you listed. We know it was not an invading foreign enemy. You have made it clear that you are patriotic BECAUSE you have guns that you need to be ready to shoot Americans with. Your words, pal. Reread your pages of posts. Perhaps you need to be redirected to your spiel before you got onto your super weapon. You also expained in detail there how you are ready to fight off America when it comes to get you. You said it, not me.

I could care less if you are confused about my status in this. It does not matter. I could just have these things because I want them. I might just enjoy shooting things that are not alive. Why do you have them again? Self defense. Against who? American muggers, rapists, and military. You said it, not me. You spent pages saying it. There are at least two threads of you saying it. You also claim to have a weapon of mass destruction.

That is where it really gets silly. Just how does that come into play. Does that right to bear arms mean you should have nukes? Biological weapons? Just what arms should you be granted the right to bear?

Who cares why I have guns, the point is, I can leave the house without one just fine, I do not sleep with one, I am not always ready. I have never once needed one for self-preservation and I am certainly not stocking up in preparation for martial law or riots or whatever other atrocity brings other Americans under my aim.

Originally posted by dooper

Of course not! You utilize your firearm "quite often." Somehow, I don't think I'm the danger here.

So what targets do you "quite often" service? Muggers? Assaults? Break-ins? Old folks homes?

Under these circumstances, at the first opportunity, I would suggest that you change neighborhood, avoid these seedy people, and refrain from engaging in whatever dangerous behavior you are engaged in.

We'd sure hate to lose you here on ATS.

If only you could read, or even get past the idea that guns are only good for aiming at people.

I live in a nice neighborhood and have never needed a gun in a bad neighborhood either.

It is funny, I have no problem reading what you say and repeating your points back to you, yet you have trouble even reading simple statements.

You are really getting boring. You have not contradicted yourself on almost every point you have made. Anyone that can read this entire thread can see what you have said and are saying do not match anymore.

You have a super weapon and a good American because you are amed as you must in case the governments turns against you. Got it. Please, stop making your point, I got it. Your argument fell apart pages ago and you are angry. I get it really. It happens here sometimes. Just let it go.

reply to post by Lucifer Rising

Lucifer, I demand that you edit your posts. I never, ever claimed, nor would I ever own, or be part of any weapon of mass destruction. That is the most insane thing I've ever heard of.

You just fabricated me having some superweapon. I note that the first person who accused me of that, using the same identical term was Morningstar 8741. You just used the identical, same term twice more.

You Lucifer Rising, and Morningstar 8741 are the same person. Different Email accounts apparently, but your posts, your phraseology, your terminology, flawed logic, quick anger, personal attacks, and viewpoints are identical.

One shuts up, the other starts posting.

Does ATS know this?

Lucifer and Morningstar are the same term. Lucifer was often referred to as the Morning Star. Interchangeable terms, different name, same person.

Clever.

Makes it easy to maintain your points, doesn't it?

For anyone who may have read this fake's words, I suggest you read the earlier posts. No superweapon. No weapon of mass destruction.

Our experiments over the past twelve years or so deal with biophysics, and EM energy that affects those biophysics. Dr. Becker determined that all life is a function of biophysics, and our experimentation appears to trigger immediate cellular dedifferentiation, rapid healing, cellular repair, viral, bacterial, and fungal destruction, and apparently the ability to inhibit and often reverse infectuous and degenerative diseases.

We can only experiment on ourselves, and as a relatively healthy group, we don't have many injuries or illnesses to test this on. We don't get sick, no colds, flu, or viral upper respiratory infections of any kind.

As I stated in my previous posts, I clearly said that harm and benefit are interchangeable. That which can heal, can kill.

Since the body is electric and every cell is a battery, there are ways to interfere with that electrical process. Everyone knows for example that a microwave can shut down a pacemaker, causing vapor-lock.

No news there. No superweapon. No weapon of mass destruction. Simple electromagnetics.

Originally posted by JipStix
Yea idiots who voted for bush terrify me. They aren't really patriots, but mindless morons. American patriots who love freedom and liberty, and constantly question their government don't scare me at all. Neither do gun-owners. We were given the 2nd amendment for a reason, and I'm not particularly scared of patriots who own guns.

The idiots aren't just those who voted for Bush. Everyone stood by and let the government plump up and go BAT-S^*T crazy. 9/11 didn't help because we had our pants down and everyone was shell shocked when the decisions started moving. It took idiots from both parties to let this happen...and party aside...it will take courageous people who are willing to work together, stop spending, act with restraint, and not try to govern every last piece of activity. And I agree...I'm not afraid of patriots with guns. I'm afraid of a larger government.

reply to post by dooper


Yup, you are genious. Or, could it be that I got that from reading your argument with MS over it. You did so claim to have a weapon that can defeat anything and protect you from anything. You said it, your words, buddy. Where did I get it from to begin with? Reading your lame argument with MS.

As for the rest, assume what you like, I could care less. Would you like a list of the people that I think you are based on your 'phraseology' and mannerisms?

Truthtellist? ULTIMA1? Titorite? Is that you?

[edit on 2-11-2008 by Lucifer Rising]

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Lucifer Rising

 

Lucifer, I demand that you edit your posts. I never, ever claimed, nor would I ever own, or be part of any weapon of mass destruction. That is the most insane thing I've ever heard of.

You just fabricated me having some superweapon. I note that the first person who accused me of that, using the same identical term was Morningstar 8741. You just used the identical, same term twice more.

You Lucifer Rising, and Morningstar 8741 are the same person. Different Email accounts apparently, but your posts, your phraseology, your terminology, flawed logic, quick anger, personal attacks, and viewpoints are identical.

One shuts up, the other starts posting.

Does ATS know this?

Lucifer and Morningstar are the same term. Lucifer was often referred to as the Morning Star. Interchangeable terms, different name, same person.

Apparently Morningstar was also a term for Jesus, so lets go get all the people with Jesus avatars.

Clever.

Makes it easy to maintain your points, doesn't it?

How so? Are points interchangable? Can you somehow pass them from one member to another?

For anyone who may have read this fake's words, I suggest you read the earlier posts. No superweapon. No weapon of mass destruction.

Yes, yes. Please read as he now describes to you the item he claims to own that can defeat anything, radiological weapons, bio-weapons, bullets, a knife, a tank...it is amazing. He also claims it can cause any level of harm up to and beyond the destruction of every life on earth. Please read on and see for yourself just how sensible he is being about this.

Our experiments over the past twelve years or so deal with biophysics, and EM energy that affects those biophysics. Dr. Becker determined that all life is a function of biophysics, and our experimentation appears to trigger immediate cellular dedifferentiation, rapid healing, cellular repair, viral, bacterial, and fungal destruction, and apparently the ability to inhibit and often reverse infectuous and degenerative diseases.

We can only experiment on ourselves, and as a relatively healthy group, we don't have many injuries or illnesses to test this on. We don't get sick, no colds, flu, or viral upper respiratory infections of any kind.

As I stated in my previous posts, I clearly said that harm and benefit are interchangeable. That which can heal, can kill.

Since the body is electric and every cell is a battery, there are ways to interfere with that electrical process. Everyone knows for example that a microwave can shut down a pacemaker, causing vapor-lock.

No news there. No superweapon. No weapon of mass destruction. Simple electromagnetics.

Simple. Where is it, what does it look like? What has it been tested against? Where is the data to prove it can do any of what you claim. I'd like to know how it prevents you from gettung run over by a car for instance.

Click here for more information.

I also believe that Morningstar 8741 has come back to us as Lucifer Rising - in violation of the T&C.

They have an identical posting style, and even continue each other' s arguments for each other, and have adopted each other's 'enemies' as their own....

Look at the date Lucifer Rising registered, it is the same as Morningstar 8741 's last posting. Since Lucifer Rising registered and begun posting, Morningstar 8741 is nowhere to be seen ...

I will be raising this issue with the moderators. This sort of nonsense is wrecking our debates.

[edit on 2-11-2008 by TruthTellist]