American Patriotism Terrifies me!!

As far as the Faith Based Initiatives are concerned .
In my opinion it just gave the Government a longer arm of control (through money) of the Religious Institutes ..
So the intent was with an agenda in mind ..and it wont be good for the Religious institutions ...

Originally posted by goldbomb444
Are you implieing us Americans are civil?

We need guns because our government is slowly getting out of hand, and we sure as hell are not going to be able to do anything about it with rocks and sticks.

With all due respect, if you think your handguns and rifles are going to be any better, you're deluded.

I wish the best of luck in your stand-off against tanks, planes and the plethora of 'exotic' weaponry that the American government owns.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


No, small arms are adequate. Vietnam proved the effectiveness of guerrilla tactics against formidable high tech weaponry and vast numbers of troops. Our fight for independence was against the best army of the day, using combined conventional and guerrilla tactics.

All through history, if you know the history of struggles, guerrilla warfare wins out, given that they are not under a time restraint. Time, time, time. It all works to the guerrillas benefit, and you'll note that each time, the guerrillas eventually acquired higher technology weapons, either through battlefield victory, theft, or outside supply.

You also assume that our military would stomach attacking its citizens. A few maybe, but those few wouldn't last long.

One other thing. Citizen veterans alone vastly outnumber our standing army. We have hundreds and hundreds of thousands of citizens with substantial combat experience.

Right now there are 91 firearms for every 100 American households, and that number is increasing very quickly. Gun sales in the past few months has gone through the roof.

reply to post by dooper


Guerrilla war usually works against invading forces, but doesn't work against an oppressive government. The concepts of 'them' and 'us' are just too vague for it to work as effectively. The control of the media in such situations also doesn't help. It would be a lot easier for the US government to infiltrate US resistance movements than Vietcong outfits.

Seriously - good luck. I'm sure some fat accountants with no logistical support and a rusty shotgun will hold up a trained soldier with close-air support. Whatever gets you through the night. Any future rebellion against the US government will be decided by one factor and one factor only - the side the US military is on will win. That is it. No amount of poorly-trained, poorly-equipped, disparate civilian resistance will make the slightest bit of difference.

reply to post by dooper


Poof, Tear gas, body armor, automatic weapons, armored vehicles, microwave weapons, poisoned water and food supplies. Chemincal weapons and radiation.

Now, quick, hide in the closet with your guns and see what you can do.

Guerilla warfare and small arms will do nothing to fend off a closing government already on our shores. They control our infrastructure, they have been here a while. It is quite different from an invading force.

As for soldiers having the stomach to shoot at Americans.....

Read this thread and see how many times a 'soldier' or soldier wannabe has stated their deep hatred for other Americans that do not see things as they do. How about Katrina, blackwater has no problem walking out streets and policing our citizens, and TAKING THEIR GUNS.

I really have no idea why anyone thinks that having a gun is going to protect them from any of that but I do know that they want you worried about it because it keeps you distracted.

Don't believe me? Look how long abortion has been a political football used in elections as a turning point. It has not changed back to illegal has it? No, they just want you to waste your time worrying about this stuff.

reply to post by dave420


First, you assume a repressive government taking command here in the US. Our congressmen and Senators come from their home areas all over the nation. Don' think for a moment that an oppressive government will come to fruition here in the US. Some group may through force assume the title, but it would be a short-lived reign.

Guerrilla war doesn't work against an oppressive government? Tell that to the Batiste survivors from Cuba. Tell that to the Chinese. Tell that to Formosa. Tell that to the French. The English. Czechs. Former clients of the USSR. Tell that to the Americans who once already put together a rag-tag
Army that bested the best Army in the world. It takes a while, and a lot of lives, but you know nothing of the SOB's that make up this country.

You may be right when it comes to portions of New England and California. But not the rest of the country.

And that close air support? If ever once used against its citizens, our military bases would overnight resemble Fort Apache or the Alamo. One single attack. The US military doesn't have enough men to fight the people here in the US. And if compelled, our military would not follow those orders. No way they are going to war on their own families and people.

You've got the German people, the German Army, and Hitler confused with the US. We swear allegiance to no man. Only to defend our Constitution. And we take that oath as some seriousschitt.

And you missed one of my earlier points. We in the US have millions of former veterans. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of combat vets. Not poorly trained fat accountants. Men who have fought in other wars and who are far from untrained. I can move fifteen feet from my computer and reach an M-14, an AR-15, and a .45 Colt. One of my specialties in the military was an engineer (12B5S) with extensive training in explosives. I also had 11B4V, 11C4V, and 054V. I know how to cook.

We also have small weapons development companies here in the US that have developed significant weapons systems and force multipliers. Most of our really good stuff originates from these small companies. Every development here is the US is designed, built, and manufactured by private companies. Who would likely not regard a takeover kindly.

And rather than just seeing some of these high-tech developments on television, any attacking military could enjoy a first-hand demonstration.

As Americans, we'll fight like hell among ourselves over the smallest of things. But you let some jerk attempt to take charge and impose his will, you'll have to take on all of us! It has never, ever worked in history against a Western Power. Never.

No, friend, whatever floats your boat.

And yo

reply to post by skeptic1
My great grandfather fought in the civil war. The south lost, because God was not on their side, Neither, am I. Evil last a long time, and is hard to get rid of like roaches. But the day will come when all people from all over the world will finally have peace on earth. Listening to you and your kind(evil) I know that we have a way to go.

reply to post by Lucifer Rising

Who, exactly, will order our troops to use these weapons against our people, and to what end? And as to your suggestion that there are some crazy SOB's out there that would in fact follow through, that cuts both ways.

Tear gas, body armor, automatic weapons, armored vehicles, microwave weapons, poisoned water and food supplies, chemical weapons, and radiation?

So far, you haven't mentioned anything that with the exception of armored vehicles and radiation that isn't widely spread throughout our population. Just remember, these things you mentioned likewise cut both ways.

Keep in mind that our military has to ingress, operate, and egress. Those armored vehicles can't operate without fuel, maintenance, and bridges. Best of all? They must follow an anticipated line of approach. Very, very vulnerable.

You mention Katrina. Lots of sorry folks too lazy and stupid to get off their fatasses to do for themselves. We have lots of those in the US, and fortunately, in hard times they fall quickly. That's the downside of stupidity and out-right laziness. That is not a good example for you to use. It was bad enough before Katrina to try to drive lots of those streets after dark.

One lesson you haven't yet learned. Good men, when they absolutely know for certain that they are right, will ever fight with even greater ruthlessness to overcome the evils that threaten them and theirs, attempting to overtake them.

Always.

Not the chikenschitts, the men. And I personally know an ass'load.

reply to post by dooper


You tell it Dooper. Star for you!

There is no way that a repressive government could ever take over here in the U.S. I mean, unless they started slowly stripping us of our rights, our buying power, and our choices, while they let us argue over the one ammendment they are NOT afraid of. Seriously, are you Canadian becase I am not sure what America you live in but this one is being raped left and right of itself. But hey, still got my gun!

reply to post by Lucifer Rising


Don't you worry about me. I know exactly where I live.

What rape are you talking about? And what the hell does abortion have to do with any of this? I don't like abortion, I think it's a terrible means of birth control, and I think the Federal Government has no business in it either way, but what is your point?

I'm not paranoid that some oppressive US military will start using air support, gas attacks, and radiation against me! It won't happen! I served in the military. There's things we would do, and things we wouldn't. Orders? Any corporal can screw up any order any general can dictate, and come up with perfectly good reasons something didn't get done. Especially when it's a foolish or counterproductive order. Besides.

Our current Generals can't find their asses with both hands!

And somehow our government is going to organize an effort against the people? Hell. Look at what they've done for our tax system. Our welfare system! One messed up circle jerk after another!

The federal government couldn't organize an outhouse relocate without contracting it out to civilians!

No. I'm not worried about our government. It's those nice, quiet, peace-loving folks that never trouble anyone that I learned are the most feared men on earth.

You all sound like like you've given up. Are you gonna tell me that if our government was to try fighting us, you would simply lay your weapons on the ground and surrender? You make me sick.
I pray for your sake and the sake of your family that you are able to grow a pair if any thing goes down, because those that surrender will be the first to fall.

reply to post by dooper


Sure, whatever you say buddy. Blackwater was not patrollig U.S. streets after Katrina? They did not take guns from legal U.S. citizens? They did not use deadly force against Americans?

I guess you missed that going down and that is why you failed to acknowledge it

p.s. what rape? You must not live in the U.S. if you have not noticed the rights we have being thrown out the window. At this rate, all you will have is your gun and nothing to protect.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by Lucifer Rising]

reply to post by Lucifer Rising


That was a law enforcement determination gone bad. Not the military. Many of these same people in these same neighborhoods would kill you for a watermelon. It was a ****hole, occupied by some of the dumbest people on earth.

You're comparing apples to oranges, during one of the most ****ed up emergencies, created by some of the dumbest, most crooked politicians, in one of the most crime-ridden places on earth, occupied by some of the lazy-est, ignorant group of cattle in the country.

This was not the US military. Buddy.

reply to post by dooper


Um....that was kind of the point. At the momen contractors outnumber troops in Iraq. They do not need the military anymore. They cut off funding, shut the military down, blackwater moves in and does their dirty work for them.

Or, shall I say this again, KATRINA.

That was warm up, practice. They do not need this military and even if they did, trust me, they can find ones to shoot at other Americans just fine. Now that they lowered the IQ standards, offered more felony waivers than ever, and are brainwashing them better than ever.

Anyway, thank you for pointing out the obvious and making my point for me.

You are very helpful.

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

No, small arms are adequate. Vietnam proved the effectiveness of guerrilla tactics against formidable high tech weaponry and vast numbers of troops.

Our fight for independence was against the best army of the day, using combined conventional and guerrilla tactics.

Firstly your fight for independence (ha!) was incomparable to that of today. The technological gap between what you describe as being the 'best army of the day' - which was using swords, sabres, pistols and muskets with some artillery - and everyone else, wasn't that great, the same goes for the actual training too.

But now? Seriously, are you going to shoot down fighter planes and bombers with your handguns? I've said this before, but I'm sure they'll fly slow and low enough to ensure you have a fair fight. Maybe you could get a lucky shot through one of the little windows or something like in the films?

Also, whilst America's conduct during Vietnam was occasionally pretty 'dirty' the against guerillas and civilian populations, for the most part, they were involved in a war with the rest of the world watching them. In that respect, America was fighting with one hand tied behind its back. The same goes for the Middle East now. If America actually wanted to, and didn't really care about the international condemnation or breaking various treaties &c, they could have just gone in and flattened Iraq within a couple of days.

When the American government and its military/police/mercenaries reach the point where they are in combat with its own citizens, those restraints will have come off and won't really care what the rest of the world thinks. Half the world won't care, and some of the remainder probably will be complicit in it anyway.

[edit on 28-10-2008 by Merriman Weir]

Originally posted by jackal17

Originally posted by DisgustedOne

Many people have a problem with the current presidential candidates because of their religious beliefs, but this is wrong headedness. Their religious beliefs are irrelevant.

Was there a box that you got to check to stop your tax dollars from funding "faith-based initiatives?"


I was forced to pay for G.W.Bush's misguied attempt at Christian Doctrine for 8 years now so DO NOT tell us their religion is irrelevent. It may not specifically say check your faith at the door but anyone that does not see how it is only detrimental to both to let them mingle obviously could care less about preserving either the church or the state.

I wrote that in haste, so let me clarify: their religious beliefs SHOULD be irrelevant. I apologize for any confusion. There is no religious litmus test for political office according to the Constitution. Unfortunately, humans being what they are, carry all of their biases and hangups and all other manner of baggage into political office with them, and we the people reap the "benefits"; not always a good thing. What I was trying to say (and badly at that) was that I know many people who refuse to vote for Obama, simply because he is Muslim. I personally don't care what his religious beliefs are; it is irrelevant to ME. I do not think he has the experience to lead this country, and THAT IS RELEVANT.

American Patriotism boils down to this, in my mind: It is my willingness to fight for YOUR right to be Muslim and practice your faith even though I am Christian and don't necessarily agree with you. And that goes the other way, too.

reply to post by SideWynder


In essence, I am stating that I am agreeing with you and posted the actual words of the First Amendment for clarification. I felt like your post left some things unsaid. As I pointed out in another post, I wrote hastily the original posting, and I should have stated that political candidates religious beliefs SHOULD be irrelevant. (I left some things unsaid!)

Those holding political office should not be in the business of forcing their beliefs on others. They SHOULD be protecting ALL of our rights and privileges, regardless of ANYONE'S religious beliefs.

reply to post by DisgustedOne


Thank you for the clarification.. That is what I thought you were trying to say, But it was late for me and I was tired. I also did not want to make the wrong conclusion on your post..Again thank you for taking the time to clarify that for me...

reply to post by DisgustedOne


Originally posted by DisgustedOne...

"American Patriotism boils down to this, in my mind: It is my willingness to fight for YOUR right to be Muslim and practice your faith even though I am Christian and don't necessarily agree with you. And that goes the other way, too."

I wish that I had stated that!!!!!!! LOL.... I wholeheartedly agree with that!!!!!

reply to post by Lucifer Rising


I agree with you to a certain extent.. And yes I believe that it may be better to keep religious beliefs out of public office.

But, alas, we are human.. and I don't think it would be realistic to expect all to be able, or in some cases even want to keep thier religious beliefs just to themselves..

Not to mention all the backround diggin the MSM and other media outlets do to political figures...

But seeing as how I believe that keeping your religious beliefs out of public office is impossible.. I will say this, I think it is possible to keep Religious activism out of public office...

Again though, I still don't see how your Religious beliefs Should hinder you from being a Patriot, or a decent (is thier one?) polititian..