Conspiracy against God

reply to post by Ichabod


Actually I have never once talked about eyewitness accounts of alien observations, I simply stated that I believe they exist due to statistical probability and a lack of ignorance combined with informed logic and intelligent.

How could you be angry at something of which you did not believe in??

I'm pleased to hear you found salvation in God and if that was what prompted you to change your life for the better, then I have no problem with that whatsoever.

When you say how can a man change from desiring evil to do good? Well personally Im not so sure you was "Evil"

Im glad you found peace through reading the Bible and believing in God and if thats what made you change then I cannot knock you.

However, you haven't provided any proof that he actually exists, your experience is of course subjective.

If you needed a medium to refocus yourself and become better then fair enough, and if believing in God achieved this then well done.

People can find peace in lots of things, personally I find peace in knowing that any actions I have commited in the past negative or positive, I will learn from that experience and use it to help myself become a better person and know how to react in the future.

If you ask me your using something to help you reach peace, I find it quite useful to go Boxing, it helps channel my aggression and not take it out on other people, it also instills self confidence.

You don't KNOW God exists, you believe he does. Because you found an outlet in which to help control your life, maybe thats why you believe its real.

Are you telling me that now you have found God you do not lie?? Because lying is a sin is it not? Now, I know that as a human being you will till continue to tell lies, its human nature. But because you repent you are forgiven?

Your story is nice, and I'm glad you have found peace but you do not convince me that God is real.

A man's preferences can easily be changed due to circumstance, I have done many things wrong in my life and thus been in trouble for them. When I have accepted the consequences of my actions I have realised that ultimately they were wrong regardless of my intentions, that has allowed me to change.

You have been saved because you needed something to believe in, and that has helped you transform, as I said I can't fault that. However, that is not proof that God actually exists.

Look at reformed criminals, do they believe in God? I think everyone needs something to believe in and help them through times of stress & pain, if believing in God does that for you then so be it and well done!

However, you still have not provided proof that God exists.

Sorry for the re-post

[edit on 3/8/08 by Death_Kron]

reply to post by Ichabod


Actually I have never once talked about eyewitness accounts of alien observations, I simply stated that I believe they exist due to statistical probability and a lack of ignorance combined with informed logic and intelligent.

How could you be angry at something of which you did not believe in??

I'm pleased to hear you found salvation in God and if that was what prompted you to change your life for the better, then I have no problem with that whatsoever.

When you say how can a man change from desiring evil to do good? Well personally Im not so sure you was "Evil"

Im glad you found peace through reading the Bible and believing in God and if thats what made you change then I cannot knock you.

However, you haven't provided any proof that he actually exists, your experience is of course subjective.

If you needed a medium to refocus yourself and become better then fair enough, and if believing in God achieved this then well done.

People can find peace in lots of things, personally I find peace in knowing that any actions I have commited in the past negative or positive, I will learn from that experience and use it to help myself become a better person and know how to react in the future.

If you ask me your using something to help you reach peace, I find it quite useful to go Boxing, it helps channel my aggression and not take it out on other people, it also instills self confidence.

You don't KNOW God exists, you believe he does. Because you found an outlet in which to help control your life, maybe thats why you believe its real.

Are you telling me that now you have found God you do not lie?? Because lying is a sin is it not? Now, I know that as a human being you will till continue to tell lies, its human nature. But because you repent you are forgiven?

Your story is nice, and I'm glad you have found peace but you do not convince me that God is real.

A man's preferences can easily be changed due to circumstance, I have done many things wrong in my life and thus been in trouble for them. When I have accepted the consequences of my actions I have realised that ultimately they were wrong regardless of my intentions, that has allowed me to change.

You have been saved because you needed something to believe in, and that has helped you transform, as I said I can't fault that. However, that is not proof that God actually exists.

Look at reformed criminals, do they believe in God? I think everyone needs something to believe in and help them through times of stress & pain, if believing in God does that for you then so be it and well done!

However, you still have not provided proof that God exists.

Originally posted by Ichabod
reply to post by re22666

 

Eyewitness testimony is used in court all the time! What you dispute is the veracity of the source. I encourage you to read the bible and then return to the post.

What you require is a physical observation for yourself which is far more proof than you require for anything else you deal with on a daily basis. You didn't require physical proof of the Apollo moon program. You don't require physical proof of the various and many tenets of virtually all science. You simply accept these things as 'fact' based on faith which is based on your 'hope' that it is as you want it to be and the 'evidence' that you - - -

read in books, see on TV, hear from some professor, etc. Very little of it do you require any real proof for.

wow. did i mention you assume alot? heck, i never said i believe they went to the moon either did i? in fact, you go on and on about what i believe without proof. amazing how you might begin to know anything i might believe above and beyond what i stated. funny you use apollo to illustrate that.
why should i return to the post? what makes you think i have not read the bible? i believe i already stated in an earlier post that i had mine at the ready. think i have on and never bothered to read it?
but, ignorant assumptions aside...
if you are a christian person, then your goal would be to win me over to know and love jesus correct? do you think judging me will help? i am pretty sure you should read a bible, there is something about judging others in there. i dont want to give it away but if you cant find it, just ask.
so here is my challenge, it is soooo simple
if what you say is true about the bible and eyewitness testimony and court, well then this will be a cinch!
i will turn my life completely over to jesus. i will even give in to your ego. i will do whatever if you can prove your point.
show me one
just one court case where this ever happend
that is all i ask and i will be convinced of the lord and all his grace and love.
think you can do it?
do you think you can maybe post a link or an article that shows one court case that was turned in favor of eyewitness testimony.
wait just a minute though. to be fair. it is your analogy so there are stipulations.
you are saying there is proof of god in the form of eyewitness testimony that can be found in the bible.
all i need to believe that is one court case that was turned in favor of testimony that had been rewritten, translated, rewritten, translated, over hundreds of years and referred to someone 2000 years old.
should be easy right?
oh you know what, when the eyewitness testifies in court, that works
when someone says what the eyewitness told them, that is hearsay
what do you suppose my example would be?
anyway, i eagerly await the answer.

reply to post by d11_m_na_c05



Thanks 4 that mate, christ what a pain in the arse, cant even remember what I was replying to now.

This thread is turning into a nice little debate, interesestingly there seems to be a few christians making it up as they go along here

Originally posted by moocowman

This thread is turning into a nice little debate, interesestingly there seems to be a few christians making it up as they go along here

hopefully you aren't referring to me, because i gave the links to the text translations and there's no doubt about it, there's a divine council of gods and goddesses.

reply to post by undo

undo, i try so hard to respect you as a person. you keep chipping away at that by insisting that because something has been written down, it is a fact. does that mean that it is true about the big red dog i read of as a child as well?
you need more than someone writing it in a book in order for it to be a fact. sorry.

your statement is patently false on its face.
there is no doubt?
how do you know i do not doubt?
what makes you an authority to say whether or not anyone and everyone doubts something?


[edit on 8/3/2008 by re22666]

Originally posted by re22666
reply to post by undo

 

undo, i try so hard to respect you as a person. you keep chipping away at that by insisting that because something has been written down, it is a fact. does that mean that it is true about the big red dog i read of as a child as well?
you need more than someone writing it in a book in order for it to be a fact. sorry.

your statement is patently false on its face.
there is no doubt?
how do you know i do not doubt?
what makes you an authority to say whether or not anyone and everyone doubts something?

there's no doubt about it, in the ancient texts of nearly every culture on this planet, there was a divine council and this includes the bible.

Originally posted by undo

Originally posted by re22666
reply to post by undo

 

undo, i try so hard to respect you as a person. you keep chipping away at that by insisting that because something has been written down, it is a fact. does that mean that it is true about the big red dog i read of as a child as well?
you need more than someone writing it in a book in order for it to be a fact. sorry.

your statement is patently false on its face.
there is no doubt?
how do you know i do not doubt?
what makes you an authority to say whether or not anyone and everyone doubts something?

there's no doubt about it, in the ancient texts of nearly every culture on this planet, there was a divine council and this includes the bible.

yes you definitely need english lessons or something. you can say things over and over all you want. that does not make them true. you cannot say there is NO doubt. I doubt. bam, thats it, you are wrong. there is doubt, i have it. stop with your circular "logic" and let me know when you can have an intelligent rational discussion.

reply to post by re22666


erm, whatever dude. you're not even being rational now, you're just attacking me for the hell of it.

I can back up undos claims as far as the Bible goes... but they are really more often called Angels & Cherubim than "Gods". It's just an issue with the Hebrew word Elohim. They are not equal to The Father Spirit and Son, triune God. The other "Gods" are created beings.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by re22666

 

erm, whatever dude. you're not even being rational now, you're just attacking me for the hell of it.

no i am being perfectly rational. you keep makng statements that are based on things you read and claiming they are facts. you then demonstrate you inability to delineate reality from what you think by stating that there is no doubt in something. that is insane. there is always doubt. there are still people that firmly believe the earth is flat in this day and age. to say there is no doubt in anything just fully illustrates that you are not to have a debate with because words are quite malleable to you. in the real world it is not so.

you then demonstrate you inability to delineate reality from what you think by stating that there is no doubt in something.

There.is.no.doubt.that.there.is.a.divine.council.in.most.of.the.ancient.TEXTS. read my post.

Originally posted by undo

you then demonstrate you inability to delineate reality from what you think by stating that there is no doubt in something.

There.is.no.doubt.that.there.is.a.divine.council.in.most.of.the.ancient.TEXTS. read my post.

there is no doubt...right?

i doubt. so i guess there is some.

look undo. i got it. you believe what you believe no matter what. fine. if that works for you, then even better. i do not care. id rather get back to the OP. i am still curious however to read some of your writings. just send me a link to the publishing house or where i can find you published. this is not an attack. you are listed as my friend you know. i am curious about what kinds of things you write.

greeks had a divine council
romans had a divine council
sumerians had a divine council
babylonians had a divine council
canaanites had a divine council
egyptians had a divine council
assyrians had a divine council
hindus had a divine council
etc. it's mentioned in their ancient texts.
i'm not going to argue over whether they are real or not, although i think they are. however, there's NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, most ancient cultures, have a divine council listed in their ancient texts.

i know what happened. you came on the thread, and thought, aww crap, i haven't had my chance to browbeat undo today. DROP IT.

reply to post by re22666


If I understand your challenge, you want me to cite one court case that was decided based on the eyewitness testimony of someone captured in the historical record.

How about the trial of Jesus? The accusation was blasphemy based on eyewitness accounts of God's commands to Moses found in the bible which was their historical record of God's interaction with them. In fact, the record shows that Pilate said he could find nothing wrong with him but it was insisted that they crucify him on the basis of this and Pilate capitulated.

There's also the entire body of decisions in the law that can be based in part on eyewitness testimony. These cases are used to establish precedence and so on and so forth. So, there is plenty of pre-history law, which includes eyewitness testimonies figuring into decisions that effects legal decisions.

All the pretense of the bet aside, which is a fun way to put your challenge, I would never hold you to your promises. It's all in good fun though, I understand, and it did make me think of an example and nobody has ever asked me that question.

Thanks for the profitable interactions.

pre-history law

no such thing as pre-history. the hebrews considered their oral histories, history. they considered their written histories, history. so did the sumerians. the greeks. the romans. and etc. i don't accept the term "pre-history."

Ichobad I have a question for you.

If someone is a postive person who tries to be as good as he possibly can be to other people but doesn't concern himself with God or organzied religion, what do you think about that? Do you think that would be good enough for God?

He appreciates his life, he respects the earth and all living creatures, but he doesn't follow the semantics of any particualr faith. He simply believes in the pursuit of happiness for all people, no matter what it may be as long as it doesn't directly cause others pain.

reply to post by Jezus


I would say that his fine works and clean living will not be imputed to him as righteousness at the judgment unless he is sinless - which is impossible for a mere human.

One might well ask why Is 64:6 says our righteousness is as filthy rags. Why is this? Aren't there good people on this earth who only do good? In short, no, there are not. With faith comes good works but works without faith are dead because they have the wrong motivations, pride being chief among them.

People performing good works don't understand that even if their heart is in the right place from their perspective, they don't have enough perspective to get it right. A tiny example will suffice. I used to commute through the worst traffic in the U.S. every day. Frequently, you'd see two types of people - the 'take advantage' and the 'goody two shoes'. Let's focus on the latter. Goody two shoes thinks that by waving in various people at various times into line makes a lot of sense, helps the world get along, and is generally a nice way to live. Besides, it makes him feel good. But they do this without regard to the other people who are right behind them trying to move. They perform their good works on the backs of other people. Do they do this on purpose? I doubt it. But that doesn't make their 'work' any less imperfect. Saying their heart was in the right place and then forcing someone who is not equally convicted to participate in the act is sin. "Do unto others" requires a lot more heads up play than we often consider.

So, none of us can get this done on our own steam. At the judgment, those people are going to say, "but I was a good person" and the Lord is going to possibly point out how incorrect their thinking is just so that there is no debate about why they are being cast out.

The debt for sin must be paid and God has taken it upon himself to pay it. We should accept this. If God let anybody and everybody in, the inevitable squabbling would go on forever. You can hear it right, "But God, why did you let him in, he was horrible to me!" God cannot be righteous and let everyone enter his kingdom. He has to set an absolute standard for entrance that is sufficient for all.

How does this fit into my conspiracy theory? Quite obvious. The world is telling us that salvation by works is possible and this puts us in direct conflict with God. Not only is the world telling us that we are capable of living a 'good' life but we can also reject Jesus atoning sacrifice for our sin.

We are told to define 'good' using our own minds. It happens all day, every day and it comes from the media, the infected minds around us, our politicians, and various masters of public opinion. Great examples can be found everyday in the press. For instance, we read that some politician says, "This bill (usually a gift of a few 100 million dollars) demonstrates the love and generosity of the American people." Wrong - but we're being brainwashed by this kind of talk.

Why the conspiracy? It's the usual collection of reasons - there is money and power in it for them. Is it not the rich who enslave us, who ignore the Jubilee years, and never free the slaves? These are the same people standing on the pile of their good works as they write checks to get themselves into heaven.

It's a conspiracy. We're being told to hate God, that God doesn't exist, and that we can satisfy God and get to heaven if we just do enough 'good' things in our lives.

As evidence, I present everything in this post. I doubt that any of the people who responded negatively have subjected their opinions to significant scrutiny. I contend that they have rather simply been swayed by peer pressure, e.g. they're surrounded by the misinformed and they want to get along with them and not suffer their persecution.

This isn't going to be a sufficient excuse at the judgment

The Christian "God" is a childish illusion. If people don't like Christianity, it's because of all the bad things done in the name of this illusion and the way people are brainwashed by this religion.

Having said that, I don't like Judaism, Islam or humanism and more. They're all dangerous and mindnumbing.