Why do many claime that there is no evidence at all?

Originally posted by TruthTellist
LOL.

We keep asking you guys for proof and all you have to show us is more pictures? LOL, no wonder nobody thinks theyres ufos!

Until you show me proof, I'm going to have to say ufo arnt real

at least sleptics don't have to have proof cuz their not claiming anything - like you are. IMHOP where is youre proof?

Don't give us anedoctals evidence and grainy phots and videos.

Skeptics Win Agian!

Just because the evidence does not reach your personal standards does not mean the evidence is non-existent.. Anyone who claims to be a "skeptic" yet is unwilling to do the research themselves is someone who has already made up their mind. Defending skepticism is fine.. Skepticism is a very important aspect of UFO research.. But there is a huge difference between true skepticism and denial. And when you think about it, that kind of closed-minded approach is the exact same thing as assuming.

This is the exact same reason some scientific theories get blown out of the water with another new discovery. Even if a well-known, reputable scientist honestly believes in a theory based on skepticism and thorough research, that same scientist is still only working with a theory and can be proven wrong very easily. And just as the UFO phenomenon may be "just a theory" in the eyes of many, it is just as big a theory as assuming they aren't real.

IMO The more convincing evidence is NASA video footage, and the actual credible astronauts who continue to come forward saying aliens and UFO's are real.... I have participated in MANY threads on these NASA videos (in some cases involving people who have even worked for NASA). And although some explanations have been presented for some of these videos, not all of these videos can easily be explained by anything we currently understand.

Some "Skeptics" have an unrealistic "bar" for what evidence is good enough to be convincing therefore they see themselves as impervious to any new evidence because they cannot be proven wrong. But no evidence is being presented here (at least not by me) in an order to convince people that the UFO phenomenon is real.. MUFON doesn't, ATS doesn't, and the entire reason for ATS is for open discussion and people to make up their own minds.. And just because you haven't seen evidence that convinces you doesn't mean it isn't there.. Or that it won't happen in 10 minutes, tomorrow, or 5 years from now..

Assuming that you know the truth is like assuming that science is always right based on current evidence. But we know that science is not always right and that even though we may think we completely understand something based on observable phenomenon, scientific theories are quite often proven wrong by new discoveries.. Therefore, no logical person can remain skeptical without some level of uncertainty about their decision to either believe in the phenomenon or not. And just as I stated before, A common misconception is that people are categorized as either being believers or disbelievers when none of it really matters.

We are all after the truth here.. And skepticism is always extremely important. Especially with all the hoaxers and people wanting attention on youtube. But even within this sea of hoaxed imagery and video, there are some well-documented cases that are extremely difficult (if not, impossible) to debunk..

NOONE is here in an effort to convince you (or anyone else) one way or another and they shouldn't have to.. If the evidence is really that intriguing then it will speak or itself.. That means conducting thorough, objective research and coming to an EDUCATED conclusion based on that evidence. But you just might find as I did that the more evidence you conduct and the more you dig, the more you discover that there is something remarkable going on here which we do not fully understand.

-ChriS

reply to post by BlasteR


I don't half to do any reserch or support my claims. I'm a skeptic.

You should know by now that the burdan of proof is on you.

We can derail your thrreads and deny your claims all we want and never have to show proof of our because we are skeptics. You makes the clames you must show proof. We can linger on threads and inject logic without backing it up, cuz we are skeptics!

But you have no proof and the proof you have doesn't count and I'm a skeptic so I don't have to show proof to my claims - so there. All you have is pictures, videos and anecdotal evdience - which doesn't count! Nothing counts!

reply to post by TruthTellist



Your entire statement is the most illogical and narrow-minded thing i've read on these boards for a while.

If you haven't done any research, then your claims are empty and uneducated guesses.
That kind of attitude is not productive or very ATS-like.
You don't just derail threads and attack people having done no research and just blindly throwing out claims.


There maybe something to it all but up until now, i have seen no definitive evidence, but at least i've looked at it, read about it and dedicated time out of my life searching for it.

We will find the truth one day, but not with your mentality

[edit on 1/8/08 by blupblup]

[edit on 1/8/08 by blupblup]

reply to post by TruthTellist


I'll call you out - just so those reponding to your false skepticism, your "act", dont waste any time thinking thier point to you will be heeded. You are acting like a child or suffer from some weird dual personality disorder.

From this thread you are saying:

reply to post by thrashee

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So you don't intend to state any alternative possibilities as a counter to the claims of the OP? - or even my own?

Do you intend to contribute anything or do you just intend on making scornful and unproductive remarks to the participant posters?

You have to support yourseide of the argument with something. You would have been absolved if you had posted only once on this thread to tell us you were skeptical... However Your continued participation denotes an agenda that and you are well aware that you are being purposefully detrimental to the thread.

Why is this so important to you? Don't answer that, you already did - but you didn't leave afterwards, even after stating that you did not care about this thread - and yet you must.

You must care about this ridiculous thread even more than I, or Polomontana. But Why? (Don't answer that., you already did)

Please stop Trolling.

That was you correct? Hopefully a Mod will see what is happening as well.

[edit on 1-8-2008 by Lost_Mind]

Originally posted by TruthTellist
LOL.

We keep asking you guys for proof and all you have to show us is more pictures? LOL, no wonder nobody thinks theyres ufos!

Until you show me proof, I'm going to have to say ufo arnt real

at least sleptics don't have to have proof cuz their not claiming anything - like you are. IMHOP where is youre proof?

Don't give us anedoctals evidence and grainy phots and videos.

Skeptics Win Agian!

You want proof UFO's are real? Here it is:

ROYAL BELGIAN AIR FORCE REPORT ON THE OBSERVATION OF UFOs DURING THE NIGHT OF MARCH 30-31, 1990



[edit on 1/8/08 by Fastwalker81]

reply to post by Lost_Mind


OMG I take it your are a beliefer also.

Please come back when you have so evidence not just pictures and theories.

Stop posting fake quotes trying to make me sound like you.

I don't see why people are shouting about how UFO's are real and thinking that this is a huge statement.

A UFO is a description it is not something worth debating. Identifying the object it is the real thing.

UFO does not equal Alien.

reply to post by TruthTellist


OK I made up my mind about the dual personality vs. child argument I've been having with myself. Thx for clearing that up...

Originally posted by Hamlin
I don't see why people are shouting about how UFO's are real and thinking that this is a huge statement.

A UFO is a description it is not something worth debating. Identifying the object it is the real thing.

UFO does not equal Alien.

So a craft is observed that has a performance envelope lightyears ahead of our own craft and that is not something that is highly interesting according to you? It's not even worth debating?

Soooo if it's so uninteresting do you mind telling me what the craft was?

Thanks.

reply to post by Fastwalker81


It was a a flying RC toy.

It was a mass hallucination.

It was Venutian Swamp Gas.

It was a Bird.

It was Plane/blimp/helicopter/satellite.

It was not a ufo!

There is no such thing as aliens!

Originally posted by Fastwalker81

So a craft is observed that has a performance envelope lightyears ahead of our own craft and that is not something that is highly interesting according to you? It's not even worth debating?

A craft/object observed (where do you get "lightyears" from) with enhanced manueverability does not automatically equate alien tech or craft, unless that is, you think that we humans are fully aware of all existing technologies on Earth, that there are no secrets being held.

I would be willing to bet there are some pretty smart sapiens out there, hidden away, grinding away with nearly unheard of budgets fully capable of accomplishing some pretty unbelievable feats. I mean, it is a KNOWN fact that humans are very capable of spiriting away and keeping secret for long periods of time what was considered amazing and never before thought possible technology at the time they were made public. A jet, the size of a bug on radar? Nah, never happen...

This doesnt completely negate alien tech but it certainly minimizes it for me. Look forward to alien contact but have a little faith in human ingenuity, were pretty smart folks...

reply to post by Lost_Mind


Well said. Thats what I was trying to say but you did it more eloquently.

People think we aren't capable of making something like an alien craft but theyre have been secret craft developed for generations and never used incombat - imagine what they are like.

Obviously people would think they were aliens or say "omg a ufo!!!" and then wind up on Larry king sounding like a moran.

reply to post by dariousg

In 1947 a UFO crashed on Hopi land. The first to reach the craft were the Hopi themselves. From the wreckage they pulled an alien and took him/her (it's unclear if there was a gender, but I'll use "him") back to they village, nursing him back to health.

If this is true we would believe definitivly in life on some distant world. We seem to beleive that the govm'nt has to keep new neighbors a secret. Why?

Why is it always 1) no pictures 2) an advanced creature finds a remote human. Why are the stories always like that? Why does there have to be a mystique about all of the ufo/alien controversy?

Shouldn't an advanced life understand our ability of flight and check in at customs at an airport? I'm serious! Shouldn't they understand our landing strips, park the gallactic hover craft and attempt to make contact with us?
That would be the mentality of an advanced life form capable of the engineering of such a craft.

I see that there's proof that these aliens have gone to flight training school because they don't seem to have the pilot error we do in our own atmosphere. We should find more crash sites with millions of sightings.

I'm just not buying 80% blurry picture, 20% "ghost story", we should have known about this alien, the next alien, and the aliens to come, in 61 years of deciphering what was found in 1947.





[edit on 1-8-2008 by rightwingnut]

Originally posted by Lost_Mind
(where do you get "lightyears" from)

I thought it was an amusing way to describe the difference between the technology of the craft and the F16 fighter jets that persued it.
And the radar data indicates quite a difference indeed. Please keep in mind a radar lock was established on the craft multiple times. Also this was in 1990, almost 20 years ago...

Radar Lock

00 h 13: First lock on the target designated by the CRC. Position: "on the nose" 6 NM (Nautical Miles), 9000 feet, direction: 250. The target speed changes within minimum time from 150 to 970 knots, altitude coming down from 9000 to 5000 feet, then up to 11000 feet, and, shortly after, down to ground level. From this results a "break lock" after some seconds, the pilot losing the radar contact. The Glons radar informs, at the moment of the break lock, that the fighters are above the target position.

A craft/object observed with enhanced manueverability does not automatically equate alien tech or craft, unless that is, you think that we humans are fully aware of all existing technologies on Earth, that there are no secrets being held.

I totally agree with you on this one and yes, I think there are many secrets regarding technology that are being held.

But there's more to it if you think about it. Regarding the case I linked above, this was in 1990. If the PTB had advanced propulsion technology fully operational then where did they get it? Also, why where they flying them in restricted airspace if they were top secret. Furthermore, why still spend billions of dollars on the development of conventional aircraft? And after 20 years why aren't they using these craft openly today? Why not fight wars with them if they are so superior? It's the same as fighting the Vietnam war with inferior propellor aircraft when you secretly posess superior jet engine fighters...

This doesnt completely negate alien tech but it certainly minimizes it for me. Look forward to alien contact but have a little faith in human ingenuity, were pretty smart folks...

Sure there is no proof that these craft are of alien origin. The only thing I find interesting is that the performance I quoted above would instantly kill any human occupant.

And indeed we humans accomplished some amazing things. I do sometimes wonder if we invented everything ourselfes.




[edit on 1/8/08 by Fastwalker81]

Originally posted by TruthTellist
reply to post by Fastwalker81

 

It was a a flying RC toy.

It was a mass hallucination.

It was Venutian Swamp Gas.

It was a Bird.

It was Plane/blimp/helicopter/satellite.

You are beginning to sound like a true debunker.

It was not a ufo!

By all means keep being in denial even after you've seen evidence, it proves my point even more.

There is no such thing as aliens!

I never said the craft was alien.

Originally posted by TruthTellist
There is no such thing as aliens!

Heh.

Have you ever seen in person a snow leopard? An ocelot? A flu virus? A black hole?

I am sure one of those things at least, you have never seen - yet you accept pictures, experts and so on as "proof" that these things exist.

And here you are, deluged with all kinds of pictures, experts and so on, showing to even a greater degree that aliens exist - and you deny it.

Why IS that?

Reasons people claim there are no aliens:

It might mess up their religion.
They are afraid of the unknown.
They want to sound intelligent when, in fact, it makes them sound just the opposite.
Mainly, I think it is because of all the disinfo out there. Things like the Archangel Michael, Sananda in a spaceship, Ashtar command, Zetatalk, Lucifer and his hordes.

I have no problem believing we are not the only ones in this huge universe.

Originally posted by Fastwalker81
But there's more to it if you think about it. Regarding the case I linked above, this was in 1990. If the PTB had advanced propulsion technology fully operational then where did they get it?

The military and likeminded private companies without a doubt culled some very, very bright people into these dark folds during the 30, 40 and 50's - guys like T. T. Brown, Edison, Oppenheimer, Westinghouse, etc. (some more so than others) and probably many more whose names may never be known publically. They are without a doubt still doing it today. I think 60-70 years is plenty of time to develop some crazy stuff if you have some really ambitious people and unlimited funds involved in it.

In my mind, I have to absolutely be able to rule out any human/earthly possibilities before I ever get close to thinking aliens are the culprits, and I give human capability a LOT more credit for acheiving the impossible than most here do.

Also, why where they flying them in restricted airspace if they were top secret.

Just a guess but maybe to simply test nominal technological responses to thier presence in the "normal" world and its technologies. Kind of like an internal, continuing "Red Flag" types of operations to evaluate progress and nominal capabilities.

Furthermore, why still spend billions of dollars on the development of conventional aircraft? And after 20 years why aren't they using these craft openly today? Why not fight wars with them if they are so superior? It's the same as fighting the Vietnam war with inferior propellor aircraft when you secretly posess superior jet engine fighters...

Smokescreen? To dribble it out to the public/enemies at a predictable rate, so as to maintain control of its rate of disclosure. I certainly would not want some people on this planet knowing my darkest most amazing secrets. If you go out and blab about what our capabilities are to Joe Public and Ed Enemy then the next month some joker out there has developed a counter for it. Whats it worth then? Some secrets are good.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Have you ever seen in person a snow leopard? An ocelot? A flu virus? A black hole? I am sure one of those things at least, you have never seen - yet you accept pictures, experts and so on as "proof" that these things exist.

And here you are, deluged with all kinds of pictures, experts and so on, showing to even a greater degree that aliens exist - and you deny it.

Why IS that?

There's a big difference between the things you list and aliens. I actually have seen a snow leopard, in a zoo. And if I wanted to go see one again, I could find one. Same thing with an ocelot. As for a flu virus, I've seen enough microphotos and representations presented by enough diverse, unbiased scientists who agree they exist to pretty much agree that they exist. A black hole is more of a theoretical construct that arises when you do the math on collapsed stars. I haven't seen one, but the math looks good, and there is some astronomical data to back up their existence.

As for aliens, though... I've never seen any, not even in zoos. Any photos that have turned up have been "disputed," to say the least. Some scientists and experts agree about the possibility of alien life, and I agree with them, but we still have yet to find undisputed scientific evidence of ET life, even on planets like Mars where we have environments where it might have a chance to survive.

We have many, many reports of encounters and sightings, and that certainly qualifies as evidence, but of what? Without something we can put under a microscope (or without an alien with tentacles coming out of its skull waving to everybody from the steps of the White House), stories are nothing but stories. Some honest people will swear on the Bible, and be right, that they've seen a magician pull a big, fluffy rabbit out of an empty hat. But just because they've really seen something, and they're honest, doesn't mean they're right. We need objective evidence to determine that.

Because aliens are disputed to exist, we need an extra level of proof for their reality, much higher than the proof we would need for the chair you're sitting on, for example. We need good, solid proof we can look at, that we can test over and over again until we're satisfied, until even the hardest skeptic is satisfied. Settle for anything less and you're just an honest dope, a sucker who believes rabbits can be pulled from an empty hat.