Why do many claime that there is no evidence at all?

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts

Don't get me started

I'll try not to!


But to the subject, I do agree on everything your saying here. Unless there will be some sort of dramatic event coming up soon regarding this subject that will force everyone to take it more seriosly, there will sadly take years before this subject is treated in a more proper way.

So, sadly, your correct in your statement. I'd like to believe that we could do better, but most of the time is spent just pushing ourself lower and lower with making sensational claims, instead of trying to look in this matter in a more objective way and turning it into a science again and not into a fairytale.
I do realise that the facts on this subject can turn up to be strange then fiction, but then we should also deal with that WHEN it turns up, and not speculate in it but keep to the facts and work our way from that.

Originally posted by kidflash2008
There is a difference between a skeptic and a debunker. Many skeptics are debunkers, while most are willing to take a look at the evidence.
This is a very good thread, and flying discs have been seen throughout history.

And a huge difference also. It's important not to hunt for a natural explanation in every case just to take the subject down to earth, it's the truth we should be hunting - all of us! - not trying to give everything an earthly explenation or claim everything fake.

[edit on 30-7-2008 by TopSecretArea]

The answer to why people always try to diminish the evidence can easily be
understood

1 ) Denial that comfort Zone few ever want to escape from

2 ) all of the evidence ,as with Like the evidence of 911 was and inside job,
points to there is something to this , but what is it. People are generally realists
they want something they touch feel and see with their own eyes .

I have seen and Though I am a realist I have come to believe that a mountain of Circumstantial evidence does not add up to circumstantial evidence
it adds up to something is wrong with this picture.

Originally posted by solo1
2 ) all of the evidence ,as with Like the evidence of 911 was and inside job,
points to there is something to this , but what is it. People are generally realists
they want something they touch feel and see with their own eyes .

True. Guess I'm sort of in that way with manythings myself så can easley understand why many people remain skeptic and deny the possibility until the concrete undeniable evidence of something out of the ordinary shows up in some shape or form that can't be refused by anyone.

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts



Speaking of common sense it is almost so certain that there are countless other civilizations in THIS universe, that this can be considered as fact. To deny that borders on self-importance to the point of near delusion. Undoubtedly there are civilizations LITERALLY millions if not billions of years more advanced than ours. To think they would still be flying around using "expensive fireworks" defies all notions of common sense. If skeptics want to speak of "common sense", it would be fitting for them to try it out sometime.
It's interesting to think of how many times paradigm shifts have happened in the history of human knowledge and in all cases the mainstream/skeptics would look down upon those that knew otherwise thinking they had it all figured out when in fact they were the ones living in a state of denial.

Sorry to burst the bubble on the first picture, but here is a clearer photo of what is on that wall:




(edit - how do I get the image to show without linking it? I used the insert image button.)

[edit on 7/30/2008 by Curious_Agnostic]

reply to post by TopSecretArea


I completely agree. I just got a few points to make real quick..

1- Skepticism is relative..

There is a big difference between a being a true skeptic and being in denial as a debunker/non-believer.

2- Some people have unrealistic expectations

skeptics in disguise believe that the evidence much reach a certain "bar" to be valid or verifiably real. If the "bar" is unrealistically high based on consistent patterns and attributes of the UFO phenomenon, then the idea is that noone can ever prove them wrong..

But you can never get to the actual truth if you have already made the assumption that it isn't real. An opened mind is extremely applicable here.. And amen for places like ATS where we can come together, share ideas, and overcome the ignorance that has foreshadowed the UFO phenomenon for so long.

3- Some people have a motive to disprove the phenomenon and discredit the true skeptics..

A true skeptic/debunker will try everything in his/her power to rule out all the possibilities in an effort to understand the truth in it's purest form. A false skeptic will do everything in his/her power to cast doubt on the true skeptics and the evidence because their true purpose is actually to prove the UFO phenomenon wrong even without having all the information beforehand.

4- Advocacy

Some well known scientists in Acadamea have stated that this phenomenon can't be real because of the fact that the investigators themselves are forced to act as advocates for the phenomenon and spread the hype. Michio Kaku is one.. But think about it..

There is no support from the scientific community (for many reasons). when there is endless evidence of something very real taking place. Therefore, the only people studying the phenomenon pretty much have to act as advocates because noone else is doing this important research and investigation OR telling the world the truth about UFO's. But the only reason it is considered "pseudoscience" is because of the lack of scientific scrutiny.. It is an endless cycle of stupidity and ignorance within the scientific community that will not end anytime soon..

And if I remember correctly science doesn't assume that something isn't real until these actual scientists do the research and figure that out.. Assuming just makes them look like they don't know what they're talking about.. And no knowledge is gained that way..

You might even call the UFO phenomenon a "theory". But there are many theories within the scientific community that are assumed to be reality. Why should the UFO phenomenon be any different given the mountain of supporting evidence, while scientists belive that other concepts and phenomenons are real with even less direct evidence. The scientists really need put their critical thinking skills to work here.. This isn't rocket science.. Yet we have rockets figured out don't we?

The idea here is to get at the unvarnished truth. There are not simply BELIEVERS and DISBELIEVERS. We have to be objective in our methodology and that objective is to discover truth regardless of who believes what..

5- Science, itself, is not exact

Science has many definitions to many people. But it is actually a very simpe concept, IMO. Science is what we think we understand about the universe around us. The status-quo within the scientific community is always being challenged by new discoveries. Therefore science, itself, may be full of really smart people, but they can just as easily be proven wrong by fellow scientists as they can make some giant scientific discovery.

So even if the scientists don't believe the UFO phenomenon is real, that doesn't mean they are correct.. And that is a very important concept for us to remember because ignorance and assumptions within the scientific community can come back to bite them in a way and make the debunkers look extremely stupid.

6- The evidence supports the reality of the phenomenon

Some people might say that there is no evidence because it doesn't reach their "bar" of whatever kind of evidence they, themselves, are looking for in order to be convinced. But the evidence is literally endless. The difficult part is not finding the evidence.

Nasa astronauts are continuing to come forward saying that UFO's and aliens are real.. We have NASA astronauts calling objects in orbit "unidenfitied flying object" and "alien spacecraft". NASA uses an encrypted communications channel for all discussions about UFO's in orbit. And a large portion of some of the most convincing evidence is from the same NASA organisation which claims the UFO phenomenon is all in our heads.. Objects instantly appearing and disappearing in the ultraviolet spectrum?? Please..

And the actual astronauts' statements themselves contradict everything NASA spews to the media for public consumption. You can't have it both ways.. It's real or it isn't.. Should we believe a federally funded space administration or should we believe honest, credible astronauts who have nothing to gain and everything to lose by coming forward?

7- What is real evidence and what isn't?

The difficult part is not finding potential evidence. the difficult part is being able to objectively determine what is a falsified hoax and what is legitimate.. And because of this huge internet fad with UFO's, we here at ATS have basically become so disenfranchised with people coming forward with fakery and hoaxed evidence that we are suspicious of even what we think is the more concrete evidence.. And with the proliferation of computers and Moore's law, it is easier than ever for people to create hoaxes, it will continue to get easier in the future, and it will eventually get to the point where it is almost impossible to discern between the hoax and the real UFO evidence.

It is the hoaxers themselves that discredit the field as well as the public's perception of the phenomenon in general regardless of it's basis in reality.

This is why skepticism is more important here at ATS and in the field in general than it ever has been before. Some people might be tricked, but we at ATS have a much higher likelihood of sifting out the fakery from the legitimate evidence. And that is one reason ATS is so important.

-ChriS

reply to post by TopSecretArea


As mentioned in a previous thread, I am a skeptical believer. I myself have seen 3 UFO's up close. There's no denying that what we saw came from somewhere other than Earth.

Read my thread for further info:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

However, my skepticism developed due to the hordes of hoaxers that litter this field of study. It's not the existence of UFO's/Aliens I am skeptical about. It's the liars, cheats, hoaxers, debunkers and in some cases, mentally ill people that sully the name of serious research... In short - Humans with agendas (whatever they may be).

One must exercise extreme caution and critical thinking when tackling the UFO & Alien reports around the world and at this forum. Like they say, never accept candy from strangers.

I'm glad that the Op apologized for the comment that no skeptic truly looks at all the evidence because that claim is very far from the truth. Kudos to the Op for having the guts to withdraw those words.

Here's The Problem (IMHO):
We have extremists on both sides of the equation. Debunkers that look at the phenomena with the preconception that none of it is true; and then we have the faith believers that allow themselves to be blindly led by the charlatans. None of these people are good for the serious study of UFOlogy. They both harm what is an incredibly important issue that faces humankind, and it is left up to the rest of us (in the middle) to try to improve the situation.

I believe we can all work together. After all, there is nothing more healthy than a counterbalance - for without that, we all run the risk of toppling over.

The believers help us maintain our passion and the skeptics protect us from the unsavory elements that wish to harm this precious field of study.

Nice Post Op & Good Presentation!

Edit To Add:

BlasteR, your post (above) was very eloquent. That's a star from me mate!

IRM

[edit on 31/7/08 by InfaRedMan]

Yeah you need to remove those links to the Egyptian drawings because those are just about the worst evidence you could possibly provide to back up your argument.

Did you even stop to consider that those drawings appear just one time, and ONLY ONE TIME, in the entirety of Egypt? They have been convincingly debunked already.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan There's no denying that what we saw came from somewhere other than Earth

That's quite a statement to make. Are you privy to all of the secret technology that is possessed by the United States military and government?

reply to post by Riposte


Are you privy? Umm... no... thought not! *shakes head*

Read my thread before sounding off. Presumption makes fools! It's that kind of ill informed attitude that harms research and starts sh*t fights. You weren't there and I was! So.. do yourself a favor & keep your trap shut until you know more. You troll and I'll bite hard mate... every time! it's evident by your ATS points what a quality contributer you are.

The one thing it definitely wasn't was a few US Pilots in back engineered lightships flying over Baxter in Australia. The spawned craft started off way to small to contain a human, however after it grew, it would have been possible to contain a human form. I gather you believe we can shrink and grow humans as well? This was NOTHING like the back engineered stories you read of.

End of Discussion!

IRM

[edit on 31/7/08 by InfaRedMan]

Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Uhm, do you mean did I read your post? Because this isn't your thread. Anyway...

You once again are making a fallacious assumption. You assume that what you saw could not be part of a covert military aircraft/project. But you aren't privy to what the United States military truly possesses.

You know, light can reflect off of certain materials and states of matter in peculiar ways, right?

I rest my case.

reply to post by TopSecretArea


Well that's simple, because there isn't.
Remember Erik Von Dunny-Cam the most famous fraud of all.
He even manufactured Evidence to support his Ideas.
To understand the Egyptian pictures you really need to understand
the Egyptian way of life at the time. To be a ruler or God you had
to look different to the Norm. The Priests and Royals had banding
done to their flexible young heads but today they look alien.

reply to post by LEAP STICK


And to further complicate matters of interpretation, many "Saturn Myth" proponents believe that they shaped their heads that way in order to emulate the plasma discharge effect between Saturn and Mars, which used to rule the heavens and be in much closer proximity to Earth than they are today.

So as you can see, the ancient "evidence" is nothing more than circumstantial, at best.

reply to post by Riposte


Your just Trolling, nothing more, nothing less. Your negative ATS points reflect that. All I see is attitude with no substance!

Meet my unrespected foe & ignore button.



[edit on 31/7/08 by InfaRedMan]

LOL.

We keep asking you guys for proof and all you have to show us is more pictures? LOL, no wonder nobody thinks theyres ufos!

Until you show me proof, I'm going to have to say ufo arnt real

at least sleptics don't have to have proof cuz their not claiming anything - like you are. IMHOP where is youre proof?

Don't give us anedoctals evidence and grainy phots and videos.




Skeptics Win Agian!

No serious scientist will take anything that you've posted as evidence. I don't care if you have a painting of an alien ship with a bunch of aliens around it, it does not count as evidence.

Bring me an alien body, craft or piece of technology that can be analyzed in a lab and then you can say that you have evidence.

Basically how I see it is.
People think there is a lack of evidence due to the double think being played by the silencers of the truth.
And the psychopath egomaniacs who think they are "higher" than everyone else.
People who are involved with silencing the truth.
Put alot of BS evidence into the game.
On purpose to make it look like its ALL bs.
Mason's and religious fundamentalists and government agents.
All put there lies and fake evidence in to make a mockery of the whole thing.
So many people get fed up and think its all made up.
Many people who have real evidence wont bother coming forward for fear of ridicule and being called a liar.
The fact is in all of the evidence there is available, some of it is probably real.
But how would you know with all the fakes?
Thats how they want it to be.
The fact is knowing the truth yourself, and seeing real evidence for yourself, should be more important than proving it to everyone else.
But then of course this completely defeats the purpose of educating the public.
Take out 99% of the evil in the world, the 1% thats left will still cause the same mayhem.

Hi TopsecretArea

theres alot of information out there but as i learned long ago its best to look into it yourself.

You posted some paintings as evidence of UFOs yet if you look into what these paintings really mean you will find its nothing out of the ordinary

sprezzatura.it...

this is what you need to be aware of, poeple in ufology will present somehting claiming its a ufo you should never blindly accept anything they tell you.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by yeti101]

reply to post by TopSecretArea


This isn't evidence. This is all just a reproduction of people's imagination.

Nothing more. How can you call this evidence? This is nothing close to evidence.

Show us concrete evidence that shows a link to the existence of E.Ts.

Show us verifiable proof not willy nilly vague of 'maybes' and 'what ifs' that has nothing to do with the existence of E.Ts.

Until you do, stop claiming we are being visited by aliens.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by AntisepticSkeptic]