Why do many claime that there is no evidence at all?

Very good first post. Nicely done. Starred.

Also like the Avatar. Mysterious, yet artistic.

One thing I like to do is define three basic terms.

1. High Strangeness This is an observation or an encounter. It does not seem to fit our normal perception of the way the world works.

2. Evidence This is the interpretation of a high strangeness, an observation or an encounter. Some people mis-define this as the observation. Observe first, then carefully and cautiously interpret. We see something highly strange and sometimes we are afraid to be uncertain. So we have to get back into our comfort zone and throw down an interpretation on either side of the debate, perhaps too quickly. Maybe we should be looking at things by viewing the -original data- and not accepting someone else's interpretations?

3. Proof Some people jump right to 'proof'. But what they really mean to do is to illustrate an observation. Both sides of the debate start throwing around highly emotional charges using words imprecisely. Proof is the culmination of a lot of observation which is categorized properly. Some of this might rise to the level of evidence. Several groupings of evidence might lead to a conclusion, but is it an inescapable conclusion, or is there another conclusion equally likely, and equally supported by the evidence? Always look for several possible conclusion, then rank them. Are we taking quantity of poorly defined evidence and because they make a big pile deciding that the height of the pile not the quality of the interpretation is probative when it may not be?

There are penalties for jumping to conclusions. We make a wrong choice for one thing. Maybe we're being played and a highly strange event is being 'staged'?

One way I do an analysis is by placing something in a quarantine and defining a term tightly and then looking to see what happens.

Here's one example I've been thinking of analyzing with the help of the ATS members.

Armstrong made this quote:

"we leave you much that is undone" "there are great ideas undiscovered" "breakthroughs available to those who can remove truth's protective layers"

Just for the sake of analysis, if we take it as a given that he was NOT referring to the Moon landing hoax, JUST FOR NOW. What else could he have been meaning?

To analyze this we'd have to go back and learn who he said this to, how it was said, what else was said and try to get a feel for the whole situation.

Next we might try and find other explanations, even some that are far-fetched. Really brainstorm. All ideas (other than the moon landing hoax) would be considered, listed and ranked.

It's an exercise in sideways and out of the box thinking.

We may not find an answer, but it might be fun looking.

Once this exercise is done we might have to put it and the box of 'evidence' and query and discovery aside and be able to access it, but perhaps suspend the need to interpret it for now.

Anyway, hope this makes sense and welcome to ATS!




[edit on 31-7-2008 by Badge01]

reply to post by AntisepticSkeptic


I'm with you. This has do stop.

All theyre rediculous claims are ruining it for honest investigator like me and you. Thank goodness for youre logic that you always add.

It is about time we had a person like yuo who debunk every single ufo thread and doesn't leave them until they die.

If you werent here all we would have is a bunch beleivers believing each others beliefs.

Thank goodness for your persistence. A truly honourable use of youre time.

God bless You.

starred and flagged. I can't wait for a proper disclosure. It is about time the skeptics be put to rest by bursting there perfect little bubble that they live in.

I will "flag" this (and I would "star" it, if I knew how).

What occurs to me is that Existence/Non-existence of UFO's and Aliens (whether they are connected or not) is a sensitive subject. It almost like a religion where non-believers have very much distance from the believers (and vice versa).

When we take the emotional load of the subject and you would treat it like case before court, it would probably be dismissed because of lack of evidence. Convincing evidence is not available and with this I mean that convincing evidence is evidence without a shadow of a doubt; it is not there! It would be categorized as circumstantial prove.

When you take the question as a hunch, suspicion I think we would have a convincing case. But in our rational minds this does not count!

I am a strong believer with hopes discosure will come in my life-time, but none of the prove we have is disclosure-worthy, or else we would not have this discussion here right now.

So if you ask "why do many claim that there is no evidence?" There is your answer.


The day president of the US comes with the message; "Ladies and Gentleman; We've got'em" I hope he will show us Gray or Lizard!

As far as I know, there is solid evidence for sightings of advanced technology in the past. However, I'm not familiar with any evidence that this technology was from an extra-terrestrial origin. For all I know, this could come from an unknown earthly civilisation or organisation.

The problem with having "evidence" to shut up the debunkers, is that if you were to come on here and state that you had a crashed UFO in your yard, some folks would be over there quite quickly to make it all dissapear. If ther was nothing to hide, then why wisk it away in a truck and claim it was nothing? If you called the media to have a press conference, I have an idea they would not air the info, but play it off as another crack pot with a weather baloon full of swamp gas. Untill we are supposed to have proof, we will have none. That is my opinion.
Great job putting this thread togeather. It is nicely compiled information.

Those that have seen something, know the truth(or at least know there is something else)
Those that debunk with venom are just pissed they haven't seen anything yet.

reply to post by TruthTellist



I have to say that UFO's are real.
You said they were not, which is false...they have been spotted for centuries, millennia in fact, so to say they don't exist is wrong i'm afraid.
And the one's that turn out not to be lens flare or natural phenomenon are the one's i mean.

Whether or not they are alien in origin is a different matter, as there is no clear evidence/proof, whatever you'd like to call it.

There is nothing whatsoever to link UFO's to outer space or alien races, other than imagination, and i have an extremely vivid imagination, so i could entertain that possibility, although it doesn't make it true.

I love watching video's looking at pictures and researching the ufo subject, just in my years of doing so, i've never found anything that proves ufos to be alien in origin.

I just don't make a leap of faith to get to the conclusion of ufos= aliens.... it's a shame so many do.

Like Nohup said a few pages back, the time travel theory is as viable as any.
I'm not saying it's correct, just plausible.


Something like this maybe...

So in the future (10-200 years) after some kind of Nuclear war, we (humans) are all forced underground because of radiation, so we live underground for centuries and evolve down there.

Our eyes become massive to allow us to see in darker environments, skin becomes all pale and grey due to lack of sunlight, proper nutrition, and we eventually become a little smaller as space is somewhat more limited.

We do however come up with a working time travel device(either before or after the war), and constantly keep coming back to different times to try and warn people of the impending disasters.

IMHO this is just as viable/believable as the Aliens from another planet theory.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

[edit on 31/7/08 by blupblup]

We are not alone.
the vatican contains the room of ages, all the alien crap that governments have collected over the centuries.

All I have to say is that the first image you have there I KNOW for a fact has been debunked. Some of the other things are misinterpretation (like on some of the paintings), however, others are exactly what they appear to be

-Jimmy

reply to post by AntisepticSkeptic


The same people that painted these also drew Humans with
the head of Cat, so......

Odd though, the Idea of a Alien with the Cats head (except the
BBC show Red Dwarf) never really took off. It was Human-Like head
with Golf Ball eyes that really took off.

Great first thread TopSecretArea Starred & Flagged!!

However, we need tangible proof that aliens are visiting. Cause all we really know for certain is that something unidentifiable is flying around our skies.

Until scientists actually get their hands on extraterrestrial beings and or their hardware we are only left with stories, photos videos and testimonials from eye witnesses etc.

Having said that, it would be foolish to totally discount the possibility but to jump to the conclusion that they must be alien is equally foolish, imo.

Isn't the short answer to this post that everyone has a different perspective on what actually constitutes evidence? To take as an example the pictures from ancient Egypt. Sure, they do resemble what has become accepted as the most common decription of an alien entity. In that respect, a broader definition than my own of the word "evidence" would include those pictures.

A quick look at dictionary.com gives the following definition of the word.

"1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof."

It is my view that the pictures of aliens from ancient Egypt do not tend to prove anything, are not very good grounds for belief, and are certainly not proof.

The simple fact of the matter is that nothing you present satisfies those three aspects of the word "evidence". And consequently it's my view that there is no evidence of an alien presence on Earth, either historically, currently or imminently.

However, my interest in the topic is maintained by my being swayed by what I consider to be 2 facts that together DO satisfy those three criteria. 1) That the universe is to all intents and purposes infinite, 2) That we are relatively simple creations.

LW

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
As far as I know, there is solid evidence for sightings of advanced technology in the past. However, I'm not familiar with any evidence that this technology was from an extra-terrestrial origin. For all I know, this could come from an unknown earthly civilisation or organisation.

I agree, we've got a lot of footage of the mode of travel but only one belief of a creature with an enlarged head and eyes. A lot of the pictures look like the same type of craft. Only lately, apparently have aliens chosen to upgrade their technology. Why is that? What discovery has been made to allow aliens a different mode of travel? Fuel cost? I only jest.

So my hesitant manner of belief is based on more proof, more than the disbelief in the proof given. We need to meet some of these space creatures.

These sightings seem to be presented in this form, that ancient egyptians were able to understand our present capabilty of flight however the crafts we see are far beyond that. How long is it before we are capable of inter-gallactic flight? The wright bros. didn't seem to use these ancient designs of an airship. A vertical flight wasn't the first of belief.

We have a lot of sightings of the form of travel but probably under ten different types. Excuse me if they look hollywood inspired. My question is, is this perhaps one alien advancing in space flight or is the word spreading about the human planet?

There is overwhelming evidence and you posted a few of them. What skeptics want is hard proof like an intact ufo with alien beings in a museum.

I know i'm going to get flamed for this but......
www.catchpenny.org...

I don't think the hieroglyphics of the "helicopters" and "UFO's" are evidence at all. I do find some of the art you shared interesting and haven't yet researched these..

Very interesting post. I like how you put it together. And I also must agree with Mr. Penny's response about the skeptics.

I don't think that 'most' of the skeptics do not think there is evidence. If you really read through most of their posts they are genuinely looking for 'the' evidence. The piece of evidence that will prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is life out there visiting us down here.

The only problem with the 'stories of old' on Rense.com (another reason to be skeptical of it) is that people will say that a) we had science fiction writer's back then too; or b) the people who translated/copied it edited the words to make it more dramatic.

Without verification I have to agree with those assumptions.

Yes, the images are always interesting to see. But again, it comes down to interpretations. What I see may not be what another sees. Yes, I see non-terrestrial forms but others see the human imagination.

All in all though it was a pretty good post with the display of many of the hotly debated objects/video's.

I am going to give you the reason *I* believe in the Shadow Govt, ETs amongst us, and so on.

For a very long time I sat and looked at the world and just couldn't add things up based merely on a love of money (though that surely explained a great deal of the weird way things operated.

So one day, as an "alien agnostic," with little understanding of how aliens really could be here and so on, I happened upon (through ATS, in fact) a short read (about two hours, depending on one's reading speed) that opened my eyes wide.

In truth, it was the back story - the reason it was written in the first place that intrigued me. If that back story had not caught me up, I would have quit reading early on, as it seemed to be so much bad scifi. But I was curious as to where it was going, given the back story.

And so I read on.

By about 3/4 of the way in, it started to form around the weirdness I had been looking at in life and things suddenly began to make sense, and the more I read, the more crystallized for me. Suddenly I found all my WHYs answered.

The back story?

In 1947 a UFO crashed on Hopi land. The first to reach the craft were the Hopi themselves. From the wreckage they pulled an alien and took him/her (it's unclear if there was a gender, but I'll use "him") back to they village, nursing him back to health.

(Meanwhile, of course, the military showed up at the crash site, but that is not important to the story.)

The alien, Bek'Ti, developed a trust with the Hopi who were caring for him. In return for their kindness he taught them the true history of our planet. This knowledge was guarded by the Hopi, honoring the trust that Bek'Ti placed in them, but was taught to the younger generations.

The author of The Terra Papers, Robert Morning Sky, was the grandson of one of those who rescued Bek'Ti. He was one who was chosen to receive the knowledge.

When Von Daniken came out with his work, Chariots of the Gods, Morning Sky saw how close to the mark Von D came and petitioned the Elders for permission to write up the information pertaining to that which Von D dealt with, and from that, he wrote a paper for college called The Terra Papers.

It is online (link in my sig) as scans of the original paper he turned in, complete with typos (he was using a manual typewriter back in the 1970's), word omissions, hand-written additions, and Morning Sky's personal illustrations.

When reading it, keep in mind that it predates Star Wars, and also that Joseph Campbell, friend and mentor of George Lucas, spent a fair amount of time with the Hopi, learning their myths, legends and so on. Likely the similarities you see to Star Wars came from information the Hopi shared with Campbell.

When I finished reading The Terra Papers, I was literally shaking from a very radical paradigm shift. So moved was I that, finding it difficult to follow the characters and terms, I poured over the Papers and compiled a glossary, which I posted here (twice - had editing issues; look for the second set of posts where all the initial terms are bold):

www.abovetopsecret.com...

why?

because some people get scared with the fact that we are not alone, and others get paid to make ludicrous claims to discredit genuine UFO research...

also, there are some very arrogant people who think they are very smart and get angry with the possibility that 'higher force(s)' created this civilization and helped it's progress through the ages... they think that humans are the only intelligent life in the Universe, they ignore hard evidence, hence they are very dumb

reply to post by Curious_Agnostic

Thanks for clearing that up there.

Originally posted by BlasteR
reply to post by TopSecretArea

 

I completely agree. I just got a few points to make real quick..

Absolutely agree with you on numerous points there, especially your first witch is a really good and important point. There is without doubt a huge difference between a true skeptic and a debunker when it comes to this matter.

Originally posted by Riposte

Originally posted by InfaRedMan There's no denying that what we saw came from somewhere other than Earth

That's quite a statement to make. Are you privy to....

What possition are you in to doubt InfaRedMan's personal encounters with something he looks at like unearthly objects? Were you there with him perhaps?
And I see that he referred you to his thread, witch you obviously should have read first before making a statement. And no, THIS thread is mine, but he clearly made a link to HIS thread about his encounter!

Originally posted by LEAP STICK
reply to post by TopSecretArea

 

To understand the Egyptian pictures you really need to understand
the Egyptian way of life at the time. To be a ruler or God you had
to look different to the Norm. The Priests and Royals had banding
done to their flexible young heads but today they look alien.

Ofcourse, I do agree with your point. But clearly a lot of you have just read my starting posts quickly, because I do point out that there can be raised a lot of questions to this as well, and you DO HAVE TO take the different sorts of proof or whatever you want to call it, and compare it with all of the other evidence from that time. The pictures aren't evidence in themself, I just used them to illustrate my point. And also to those who claim that some of the images accure just once I must ask; have you looked thru all the walldrawings in the whole of Egypt since your making that claim? However, a sertan image might be used one, the point is that images similar to UFO's observed today is portrayed in some different shapes and forms in different locations. And my point was to see the drawing on the image in focus of the reports of flying objects that were made back then. You'll also have to consider the different sort of reports from all over the world at that time together, not just break down each little pice of it and debunk it. Some images from Egypt might be coincidence, but what with the drawing from the Bible? Other wallpaintings from different ends of the earth? The reports from India at the same time? Your not trying to see the whole picture here, you'r trying to find some few mistakes to weaken the whole thread itself. I clearly states that we have to have a look at everything all together both different sorts of pictures and walldrawings and reports.

Originally posted by TruthTellist
We keep asking you guys for proof and all you have to show us is more pictures? LOL, no wonder nobody thinks theyres ufos!
Until you show me proof, I'm going to have to say ufo arnt real
at least sleptics don't have to have proof cuz their not claiming anything - like you are. IMHOP where is youre proof?
Don't give us anedoctals evidence and grainy phots and videos.
Skeptics Win Agian!

First of all, I just have to laught my ass of at people telling me that UFO's AREN'T REAL! UFO=Unidentified Flying Object, so you should be adding in that UFO's of ET origin aren't real. Since anything earthly shown in the sky that we can't determen what is at that given moment is an UFO until identifyed.

And second, with your claim. You also claim that all eyewitnesses are fakes or lying, eyewitnesses from all types of people... airline pilots, US military people, abductees, people with missing time etc etc etc.. you'r claiming that the are lying, all of them.. why should they do that? most of them haven't earned anything else then stange looks from it. You're also claiming that pictures and videos can't be used as proof for anything. Since we can't give proof for the existence of UFO's with them, we can't use then as any other sorts of evidence either thou? Someone COULD have faked them.
Ofcourse we have a lot of misunderstandings in photos, but does that automaticly mean that every photo or video have to be either a faked one or a misunderstanding? Don't think so.

And all of these eyewitnesses from the military, I would like people to notice that a lot of them aren't stating that we are working along side them, the're stating that there are UFO's of unkown origin in our airspace that the US forces don't know for shure what is or if it is a threat or not themselfs. Is that an unrealistic idea? There are a lot that claims that we are working along side aliens, they might be mistaken or trying to fool someone, but the fact of UFO's of unkown origin beeing real I would say that it's close minded to discard it as just another fairytale.

Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
All I have to say is that the first image you have there I KNOW for a fact has been debunked. Some of the other things are misinterpretation (like on some of the paintings), however, others are exactly what they appear to be

-Jimmy

I agree with you, the first image have been debunked and was a mistake to add in here. But like you also say, some are misunderstandings, while others are what they appear to be.

Originally posted by TheOracle
There is overwhelming evidence and you posted a few of them. What skeptics want is hard proof like an intact ufo with alien beings in a museum.

To be honest I don't think that would have helped either.
They would just have claimed that it's a perfect fake made of some unkown great artists.

But yeah, that whats all the skeptics and non-believers want before they'll agree with the possibility of inteligent life elsewhere.


And also, what is so stupid about wanting an in depth investigation and a final disclosure about this issue? I'm not saying that the only real disclosure have do be that the government admit that; "Yes, we have been working along side aliens behind your back for the last 70-80 years and now we're going to take over the world". All, at least I want, is a propper investigation into this matter without people taking the subject for granted.