Ask a Mason

a reply to: AldarKose

No actual facts apart from documentation and references in books, you mean?

a reply to: TerryDon79

toolbox, always the toolbox.. Im always gonna reference freemasons to their toolbox... thats my reference.. Or if you see a painter with a hammer and he calls it a bucket.. Do you think its an Ice cream? Thats about how logical it is when you say its older..

originally posted by: AldarKose
a reply to: TerryDon79

toolbox, always the toolbox.. Im always gonna reference freemasons to their toolbox... thats my reference.. Or if you see a painter with a hammer and he calls it a bucket.. Do you think its an Ice cream? Thats about how logical it is when you say its older..

So go and prove those books wrong.

Or are you just going to sit there and cry that it's not as young as you want it to be?

I'll be waiting for your deconstruction of those books I told you about.

originally posted by: AldarKose
a reply to: TerryDon79

Jacobs ladder all the 72 steps.. Lesser keys 72, if it didnt have a reference until it came in a book.. Did it exist? sufism 72 virgins, maybe i can cross reference freemasonry till the 7th century? How about King Solomon ? Naaah, im gonna say you guys are from around the 18th 19th century.. Or you make bold claims.. which no actual facts than stories..

Important you guys keep up to rules and boundaries..

72 is an astronomical number, include in myth as a guide for understanding precession.

a reply to: TerryDon79

No im not gonna shed a tear over a story, it get a lot trickier using a story with science.. Thats why you always use science, golden ratio and fibbonacci is a fantastic story of evolution.. But sacred geometry is not a divine intervention from another dimension.. Its just our solar system over a very long period of time..
The institutions ( well in Europe ) had an exam to see if you actually could understand the foundation of art and beauty with looking over your artistic skills, an actual working IQ-test.. A very simple test, but it required a hell of a lot of observation and studies.. Then you learned, the basics for society..
This was a basic skill in higher learning, not something out of the ordinary..

Do you believe in the Bible? I read the stories, but for me it opens a world of amazing things..

In society there are obligations including for an uncanny character like me..

a reply to: AldarKose

Still waiting for you to prove the books wrong.

You remember those, right?

a reply to: TerryDon79

The earliest surviving records of these are the laws and ordinances of the lodge at York Minster in 1352

It should be noted that these regulations were imposed by the Dean and Chapter of the Minster

Morals and dogma

Regius poem came to the attention of Freemasonry much later, this oversight being mainly due to the librarian David Casley, who described it as "a Poem of Moral Duties" when he catalogued it in 1734.

Morals and dogma

The Matthew Cooke Manuscript is the second oldest of the Old Charges or Gothic Constitutions of Freemasonry, and the oldest known set of charges to be written in prose. It contains some repetition, but compared to the Regius there is also much new material, much of which is repeated in later constitutions

Unlike the majority of the old constitutions, which are written on rolls, the Cooke manuscript is written on sheets of vellum, four and three-eighth inches high and three and three eighth inches broad (112mm x 86mm) bound into a book, still retaining its original oak covers. The manuscript was published by R. Spencer, London, in 1861 when it was edited by Mr. Matthew Cooke — hence the name. In the British Museum's catalogue it is listed as "Additional M.S. 23,198", and is now dated to 1450 or thereabouts, although errors in Cooke's transcription caused it originally to be dated to after 1482

Bingo, but it doesnt mention freemasonry, it mentions;

Recent analysis of the Middle English of the document date it to the same period as the writing, around 1450, implying that the source or sources from which it was copied were almost contemporary with the Cooke, and contemporary with, or only slightly later than the Regius poem. It was probably composed in the West Midlands, near to the origin of the Regius in Shropshire. The historian Andrew Prescott sees both the Regius and Cooke manuscripts as part of the struggle of mediaeval masons to determine their own pay, particularly after the statute of 1425 banning assemblies of masons. Masons sought to show that their assemblies had royal approval, and added the detail that the King's son had become a mason himself

You cant claim something that has absolutely nothing to do with your lodges...

Masons sought to show that their assemblies had royal approval, and added the detail that the King's son had become a mason himself

In France, the 1737 lecture of Chevalier Ramsay added the crusaders to the lineage. He maintained that Crusader Masons had revived the craft with secrets recovered in the Holy Land, under the patronage of the Knights Hospitaller. At this point, the “history” of the craft in Continental Freemasonry diverged from that in England.

. At this point, the “history” of the craft in Continental Freemasonry diverged from that in England.

And from there, it has nothing to do with each other..

It was about knowledge about things we call science, that passed from Father to Son with a approval from a King that you were qualified and not a hoaxster.. Everything from farming, fishing, medicine, metal workers, a practice, a mean for survival..

I still cannot find a single thing that verifies the freemason toolbox to anything to that above... But you still claim it to be the same?
I dont expect much, but i do expect some reality..

a reply to: AldarKose

Well if I knew what the hell you wanted I might be able to help. Instead you have made yourself as vague as possible.

Bad troll.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Im saying to the bottom line;

American freemasonry are doing their own thing; The rituals are the same, dont add stuff afterwards for a higher meaning.. The most important aspect of American freemasonry is the moral and dogma, the rituals teach you about " true history " Do not, add anything that has not anything to do with freemasonry afterwards..

There lies the problem, you have a toolbox with a set of morals and dogma.. Nothing more.. Dont add weird stuff.. It helps no one and it does harm..

If i research the whole package you gave me, and i said, well no.. You say, oh well your a troll.. Truth is subjective aint it? But im not gonna buy the Cthulhu story, cause well, both of my feet are placed on the ground..

a reply to: AldarKose

So what "weird stuff" are you refering to exactly?

Truth can be subjective, facts are objective. So far you have provided neither.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Im gonna make things as grown up as possible; If institutions are against the way you practice things, maybe the fault doesnt lie with the institutions maybe the problem lies with the way you do things in this time and age..
The creed; im gonna call it a creed, ( rituals ) morals and dogma, is for me as someone outside, something ok..
But it doesnt stop there..

I can make a reference, i had teacher, he was suppose to teach the religious values after death, it ended up with him placing his own words/ideals and saying Europe is infested with muslim, its an invasion and.. He influences people, he had one job and yet he placed his own thing in it.. Did i pass the course after i told him to f*** himself, i did... Cause we had someone supervising..

You do exaclty the same thing, your own ideals cannot be placed in a place where it has nothing to do.. Its a place where knowledge of history should pass.. everything else.. Just leave it at home...

a reply to: AldarKose

Congratulations on writing 3 paragraphs that have absolutely nothing to do with what I asked.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Problem lies with me not being able to disclose the rituals and the intent..

Dont use your own indoctrination of culture with the freemason values..
If you dont understand what im saying, well id probably say.. Try to learn what you took an oath about..

a reply to: AldarKose

I still have no idea what you are either asking or trying to prove.

Maybe ask a question or make a (coherent) statement backed up with facts?

a reply to: TerryDon79

Are you a freemason?

originally posted by: AldarKose
a reply to: TerryDon79

Are you a freemason?

No because I'm an atheist. I have studied freemasonry in depth for years. I was brought up around Freemasons, friends with Freemasons, my stepdad was a Freemason.

I would say I know a lot about the history of freemasonry. Likely not everything though (as some of the history has gaps and no formal records).

I just had the longest discussion about freemasonry with someone who knows someone who is in freemasonry, but has zero insight what freemason is about..

I feel trolled big time..

It took me extensive research without taking a creed to find out what they are doing.. When i mention toolbox it has zero thing to do with an old practice of a mason..

So im gonna call you a bluff..

a reply to: TerryDon79

Then join freemasonry take the creed, so you can tell me like Master Cthulhu on ATS to f*** off, he does that on a regular basis..

a reply to: AldarKose

So you picked up on the part where I know Freemasons, but ignore the part about me researching it for years?

You do know you don't have to be something to research it, right? We have research on rocks and I'm pretty sure the scientists who done it aren't rocks.

So what exactly are you calling my bluff on?

originally posted by: AldarKose
a reply to: TerryDon79

Then join freemasonry take the creed, so you can tell me like Master Cthulhu on ATS to f*** off, he does that on a regular basis..

Did you not read my post? The first sentence I said I'm an atheist. That means I do not meet the criteria to join the order.