We Weren't Designed To Eat Meat, Here Is Proof

Originally posted by insurgentx
If people want to eat meat thats up to them its their choice, as is Vegetarianism/Veganism. It doesn't negate the fact that the vegetarian diet has been found to be healthier than a meat diet. To such an extent that Insurance companies now offer lower premiums to Veggies because they are likely to live longer.

I actually take major issue with that, those studies are always biased, they compare heavy meat eaters with veggies. They should compare light meat eaters with veggies and then see the results.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I think that proves a small amount of meat in the diet is the optimal diet.

Sounds reasonable but again this statement is far too general my friend, I think you should reconsider the syntax. And I am not saying YOUR optimal diet should be meat free either. It varies.

See I don't need to lift weights or anything like that, so in my case 'optimal' means sustained energy delivery throughout the day evenly balanced across physical, mental and spiritual parameters. I was a meat eater 20+ years and vego for 10, and I can tell you straight my 'optimal' diet for the above does not involve meat, and I have no medical conditions.

1. Everyone should exercise including some type of resistance training.
2. How do you really know what your optimal diet is? What qualifies you to determine this? Have you run blood work for each type of diet you consumed and tested your actual energy output over a prolonged period of time?

Just curious how you KNOW which diet is "optimal".

Originally posted by jfj123
2. How do you really know what your optimal diet is? What qualifies you to determine this? Have you run blood work for each type of diet you consumed and tested your actual energy output over a prolonged period of time?

Just curious how you KNOW which diet is "optimal".

Cos it's my body I'm not saying it's same for everyone just my own experience, and i spose it's not just meat that slows it down, but pasta and dairy also. I thrive best on the greek style Mediterranean diet plus lots of fruit. I first discovered this thanks to the d'adamo blood type diet material, though i don't necessarily back his science.

Originally posted by jfj123
1. Everyone should exercise including some type of resistance training.
2. How do you really know what your optimal diet is? What qualifies you to determine this? Have you run blood work for each type of diet you consumed and tested your actual energy output over a prolonged period of time?

Just curious how you KNOW which diet is "optimal".

For the general population, an optimal diet includes some meat, evidenced by everything said previously in the thread. The fact that the human body will only be able to obtain it's peak, in this case bodybuilding as the example, shows this. That's why i say it's the optimal diet, however i mean for the majority. I am sure there's a minority who wouldn't benefit from it.

Interesting chart. You forgot a few things. Our canine teeth are sharp and designed to tear flesh. A large percentage of herbivores get the bacteria necessary for digestion by eating the feces of their parents. Fortunately, we do not do such a thing (but sometimes I wonder). Our closest relatives in the animal world, the chimpanzees, regularly hunt and eat the meat of other primates, insects, and whatever food source is available. I wonder, are you an expert on human anatomy & physiology, taxonomy, or biology? If you are, then I might take you somewhat seriously. If not, I suggest you pick up a book or maybe take some classes.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi

Originally posted by jfj123
2. How do you really know what your optimal diet is? What qualifies you to determine this? Have you run blood work for each type of diet you consumed and tested your actual energy output over a prolonged period of time?

Just curious how you KNOW which diet is "optimal".

Cos it's my body

I'm not saying it's same for everyone just my own experience, and i spose it's not just meat that slows it down, but pasta and dairy also. I thrive best on the greek style Mediterranean diet plus lots of fruit. I first discovered this thanks to the d'adamo blood type diet material, though i don't necessarily back his science.

So you just have a "feeling" that what you're doing is correct for you and no real scientific evidence.

Originally posted by jfj123
So you just have a "feeling" that what you're doing is correct for you and no real scientific evidence.

Yeah, you can call it a hunch

Originally posted by Shar_Chi

Originally posted by jfj123
So you just have a "feeling" that what you're doing is correct for you and no real scientific evidence.

Yeah, you can call it a hunch

Sorry but a "hunch" isn't as good as actual scientific data.

You also said

See I don't need to lift weights or anything like that,

Everyone should exercise for optimal health so your hunch is wrong about that too

My point is that people make mistakes about what they believe is right and/or healthy "for them" all the time. They think they're eating the right thing but in actuality they're not. For example, 2% milk is actual approximately 37.5% fat based on Kcalories but since it says LOW FAT, people drink it thinking they're doing good. Just one of many examples.

For vegans who choose to eat this way because they believe it's not moral to eat animals, how do you justify eating plants? Plants are also living things that must die for you to live. Just curious how you justify this to yourselves.

Thanks.

Originally posted by jfj123
1 Sorry but a "hunch" isn't as good as actual scientific data.
2 Everyone should exercise for optimal health so your hunch is wrong about that too

3 My point is that people make mistakes about what they believe is right and/or healthy "for them" all the time.

Well your point 1 there seems a bit ridiculous to me, what scientific data would you realistically expect me to provide you with? Do you have some 'blood data' or whatever it was you mentioned about yourself? I know what food delivers me the best energy but I don't really care to convince you or anyone else, so take it or more likely leave it.

If you really want to get scientific, put your money where your mouth is and adhere to a strict 12 week vegan or raw food diet and come up with some kind of measurements? Scared you might die?

Point 2, I don't see how lifting weights is necessarily related to optimal health, but whatever floats your boat i guess. There are other ways to stay fit, not that I'm as fit as I should be tbh... too much time on the computer lately

Your point 3 I agree with wholeheartedly

Originally posted by jfj123
For vegans who choose to eat this way because they believe it's not moral to eat animals, how do you justify eating plants? Plants are also living things that must die for you to live. Just curious how you justify this to yourselves.

Thanks.

First of all, comparing the suffering of a carrot with that of a lamb being slaughtered - well you have to draw the line somewhere. Secondly, we don't eat the tree as so many people often put it, we eat the fruit of the trees, and this is how many plants propagate. Thirdly plants don't run away screaming or express suffering the way animal beings do when being slaughtered.

And someone earlier posted about the spirituality of eating plants, I can't remember the exact words but they were nicely phrased. Every vego I know feels gratitude for their meals, unlike so many others who live off over-processed supermarket food and take it for granted with painfully dull comments such as 'I didn't get to the top of the food chain to tofu'.

The ancient Jain culture of india won't eat anything until it has fallen from the tree or vine iirc. They are one of the oldest and perhaps wisest of the Dharmas. Personally I feel everything has some kind of sense in it including every animal, tree, and even rocks. Go ahead and laugh, it's ok, I'm laughing too

I don't know if this was mentioned but human molars more closely resemble the carnassial teeth of carnivores not the flat ribbed molars of herbivores.
Also, true herbivores are more rare than most people think. Most herbivores will scavenge a bit of meat here and there as quality protein is hard to come by.
Truly, humans eat more meat then they earn. That is to say, that primitive man would've had to work very hard to get meat and thereby it would be used in muscle to hunt more meat. Societies that were more plant dependent would still need occasional high protein sources that rarely occur w/in plants. The less harsh the conditions a human is living in the less protein the need and conversely so in harsh conditions.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi

Originally posted by jfj123
1 Sorry but a "hunch" isn't as good as actual scientific data.
2 Everyone should exercise for optimal health so your hunch is wrong about that too

3 My point is that people make mistakes about what they believe is right and/or healthy "for them" all the time.

Well your point 1 there seems a bit ridiculous to me, what scientific data would you realistically expect me to provide you with?

You're missing my point. You're making a GUESS as to what is best for you instead of relying on well researched data. People make guesses about their nutritional needs all the time but they're wrong very often.

I know what food delivers me the best energy

Actually you're just guessing.

If you really want to get scientific, put your money where your mouth is and adhere to a strict 12 week vegan or raw food diet and come up with some kind of measurements? Scared you might die?

No. Based on available scientific data, a vegan diet is not healthy.

Point 2, I don't see how lifting weights is necessarily related to optimal health, but whatever floats your boat i guess. There are other ways to stay fit, not that I'm as fit as I should be tbh... too much time on the computer lately

I was referring to resistance exercise which helps with optimal health such as increasing bone density among many other things.
If you really did "KNOW" what your body needs, you'd know you need exercise for optimal health including both aerobic and resistance exercise.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi

Originally posted by jfj123
For vegans who choose to eat this way because they believe it's not moral to eat animals, how do you justify eating plants? Plants are also living things that must die for you to live. Just curious how you justify this to yourselves.

Thanks.

First of all, comparing the suffering of a carrot with that of a lamb being slaughtered - well you have to draw the line somewhere.

Why draw a line at the death of one thing over another. You have just decided to put more value on the death of an animal over a plant. Plants grow, reproduce and thrive just like animals.

Secondly, we don't eat the tree as so many people often put it, we eat the fruit of the trees, and this is how many plants propagate.

But obviously you eat more then fruit.

Thirdly plants don't run away screaming or express suffering the way animal beings do when being slaughtered.

Caged animals can't run. So you're saying that because something can't express suffering, it makes it ok to eat? What if we simply gave lambs sedatives before killing them? Would it then be ok to kill them?

And someone earlier posted about the spirituality of eating plants, I can't remember the exact words but they were nicely phrased.

And I can post the spirituality of eating animals.

Every vego I know feels gratitude for their meals, unlike so many others who live off over-processed supermarket food and take it for granted with painfully dull comments such as 'I didn't get to the top of the food chain to tofu'.

This is a big leap to say the just because we eat animals, we are not grateful for our meals. Seems a bit unlikely to me.

The ancient Jain culture of india won't eat anything until it has fallen from the tree or vine iirc. They are one of the oldest and perhaps wisest of the Dharmas. Personally I feel everything has some kind of sense in it including every animal, tree, and even rocks. Go ahead and laugh, it's ok, I'm laughing too

If everything does have a sense then that would mean that plants and animals should be treated with the same reverence and neither should be killed for consumption.

I found information on the physiological evidence that humans are "made" to be omnivores. At the end of the day we choose what to put in our mouths be it plant or animal protein.

Humans are Omnivores

reply to post by jfj123


Well if you must persist with your interrogation over plants having feelings, which btw is quite cliche I get it from every meat eater as if it's some kind of 'get out of jail free' card, well you are now aware that I actually have great respect for plants as well as animals.

So why do I eat them? Sure they respond to energy and chemical reactions, but they simply don't have the tissue and neural connections required to experience what we call 'pain'. When you go under anaesthetic your neural receptors stop responding to pain and we can pull your black heart out of its cage without you feeling a thing. So your argument is clutching at straws. And yes I'd prefer a lamb was unconscious prior to its slaughter, but that's just another one of my hunches.

Something else to contemplate if you want to argue that because plants are living things it is therefore morally equivalent to eating animals (and humans too?), is the utilitarian point of view which I trust you understand if you take ethics as seriously as you seem to make out here. Stated simply, you can satisfy the same requirements with less resources by eating plants directly rather than animals, who eat vast quantities of plants directly or indirectly prior to our processing of them for food. How many plants does a cow eat before it becomes a burger? One way or another we are destined to eat plants, but I cut out the middle man, and reduce the net suffering that accumulates in my diet. Therefore it is preferable to eat plants directly, under the utilitarian directive.

I strongly resonate with buddhist and hindu philosophy of vegetarianism, so look it up if you are interested. I only found out about the metaphysical properties of a vego diet by accident after 12 weeks of detoxing off meat. My ultimate outlook is this, don't kill something unless it's absolutely necessary, and if you do, then make sure it is done in as humane manner possible. It's a position I think is quite reasonable, and frankly if you can't follow both the logic and the karma in that, there's really no point even talking about it.

So if I had to kill an animal to survive, I would without hesitation, and I don't begrudge anyone who does. The reality, as stated 1000x already by both sides of this 'debate' is that most people in our society OVER consume meat and kill animals unnecessarily, and furthermore in the majority of such cases without regard to the suffering of the animal. Sorry, but NOBODY needs bacon for breakfast, burgers for lunch and chicken for dinner other than to satisfy an addiction to gluttony, and I don't care what website u quote to say you do.

Since I had to respond to your post, here's something no-one has bothered to point out in the thread. If we are such great omnivores, why do we have to cook meat prior to consumption. Even the Inuit of the frozen tundra preferred to boil their seal meat. Can you name any other omnivore or carnivore that has to cook meat before it eats? But plants, we can eat raw by the box full. So yes we can eat meat but only after we've gone further than any other animal to make it digestible. In all honesty, humans are not the be all and end all of omnivorism so many here would like to make out.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
reply to post by jfj123

 

Well if you must persist with your interrogation over plants having feelings, which btw is quite cliche I get it from every meat eater as if it's some kind of 'get out of jail free' card, well you are now aware that I actually have great respect for plants as well as animals.

I've never insisted plants have feelings just that they are living things that must also be killed for you to survive.

My ultimate outlook is this, don't kill something unless it's absolutely necessary, and if you do, then make sure it is done in as humane manner possible. It's a position I think is quite reasonable, and frankly if you can't follow both the logic and the karma in that, there's really no point even talking about it.

I agree. It is necessary that we eat meat for long term survival.

The reality, as stated 1000x already by both sides of this 'debate' is that most people in our society OVER consume meat and kill animals unnecessarily

Actually in our society we over consume EVERYTHING including pasta's, breads, starches, sugars, etc... and none of which have meat in them.

, and furthermore in the majority of such cases without regard to the suffering of the animal.

I myself would like to see animals slaughtered in a more humane manner.

Sorry, but NOBODY needs bacon for breakfast, burgers for lunch and chicken for dinner other than to satisfy an addiction to gluttony, and I don't care what website u quote to say you do.

I assume you mean all in the same day.
Some tribes for example only have pigs as their meat source so they eat pork every day as this is their primary food source because of their environment.

Since I had to respond to your post, here's something no-one has bothered to point out in the thread. If we are such great omnivores, why do we have to cook meat prior to consumption. Even the Inuit of the frozen tundra preferred to boil their seal meat. Can you name any other omnivore or carnivore that has to cook meat before it eats? But plants, we can eat raw by the box full. So yes we can eat meat but only after we've gone further than any other animal to make it digestible. In all honesty, humans are not the be all and end all of omnivorism so many here would like to make out.

Actually it's not necessary to cook fresh meat.
Ever hear of Sushi?
Lot's of different fish dishes are consumed raw.
or raw seal blubber.
Also, fresh meats can be consumed raw. Ever seen Man VS Wild where Bear Grills finds and eats the raw flesh of a dead sheep. I believe it was a sheep.... In any case, we most definitely can consume raw meats. I prefer my burgers and steaks extra rare

Well nice serving of semantics in there with which we could drag the corpse of the thread another mile with no doubt.

Originally posted by jfj123
I myself would like to see animals slaughtered in a more humane manner.

Instead, I'll agree to agree with you

I would be willing to claim that no carnivores can actually taste the flesh they consume. Or at least appreciate the taste.
Why would beef,pork,chicken have so much flavor?
why do we have this luxury of being able to enjoy such a juicy succulent flavor thats is pork and beef fat. yes the fat is the most tasty part.



hey dont get me wrong fruits, vegetables, grains are just as tasty.

[edit on 24-6-2008 by Mailman]

Originally posted by Mailman
Why would beef,pork,chicken have so much flavor?
why do we have this luxury of being able to enjoy such a juicy succulent flavor thats is pork and beef fat. yes the fat is the most tasty part.

I bet dolphins are even tastier, fancy a bite? How about a slice of human?
Ethics come into it at some point, where you have to decide what is right or wrong to eat based on your personal morals. Flavour isn't the final decider, you are.