We Weren't Designed To Eat Meat, Here Is Proof

If cravings are an indicator of what diet we should eat,I'm and omnivore.Carbs,protein,salt,sweets,all figure into the mix.The metabolism slows down with age,so adapting to body signs is neccessary. In my late 40's my tastes changes somewhat significantly. I droped a 40 yr old PEPSI habit,which I knew was dangerous.I couldn't comfortably drink a whole beer before about age 47(now 50).Taste is very much a factor for me.Alchy is really NOT for me.I'll take a lot less red meat and stick with chicken (safer). Carbs,I find are harder to give up. Less dairy ,generally is better for older middle age,I feel.Calcium replacement and B vitamins and A,C,D,E Vits are probably more critical for maintenance.I always like to crush pills to help them metabolize/break down.Coffee/Tea are my friends. Orange juice is more critical for maintenance,I think. *** If I eat a lot of meat and it just sits there,what I feel is too long,I'll drink coffee to void it out.The coffee routine in the morning and to the bathroom seems like a burden of getting older and slower internally,I believe. I get plenty of exercise,so it's a slow metabolism that is the problem to overcome,I feel.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I'm glad you brought up RICE. Think how many forrests in India were bared clear from burning fires to cook rice which is basically MUSH,offering such low nutritional value.The water used will come back to the system,somewhat.The wood or fuel wasted to burn cooking rice is considerable for vitamin poor diets.The soil is also robbed of nutrients by rice I think. Mexican soil is notoriusly polluted ,weak and bad. India in parts also has that problem if I understand over-farming. Soil nutrient replenishment is far and wide overlooked for far too long.

reply to post by Pillowtalk

Well, you might be able to say "END OF THREAD" if you had read any of it before stating your misconceptions. We've been discussing the bodybuilding issue and if you’d follow it, I’ve shown examples of a person who has been successful at it on a vegan diet, as well as myself who has gained a lot of muscle with no drugs or supplements. I'd dig up more examples if I felt it was worth my time.

@ ImaginaryReality1984:
Ok, so you say veganism isn’t the optimum diet. From a purely biological standpoint I agree. So why don’t I follow the optimum diet? Well those reasons are somewhat spiritual and probably more apt in another thread. Therefore, as far as I’m concerned this debate here has run its course.

Originally posted by Cythraul
Ok, so you say veganism isn’t the optimum diet. From a purely biological standpoint I agree. So why don’t I follow the optimum diet? Well those reasons are somewhat spiritual and probably more apt in another thread. Therefore, as far as I’m concerned this debate here has run its course.

Well i agree i think the thread has run it's debate on merely a biological standpoint. I'm glad at least there are some vegans/vegetarians who are willing to accept the science. I was honestly not trying to change anyones dietary preference, i just don't like people using false science or denying things because they desperately need to be able to back their ideas up with any science, even if it's incorrect.

I enjoyed debating with you and many others in the thread.

Be well.

Originally posted by rocksarerocks
We weren't DESIGNED for anything, period. We evolved, and we evolved to eat whatever we wanted to eat or was available.

End of thread.

Is Cannibalism an evolution or an acquired taste?

As far as what's available, the Andes survivors scenario shows that you are right.

Like the tree in the Garden, man reasons just about anything he wants as long as it suits him. I think Ben Franklin agrees.

Ben Franklin On Meat Eating

Our People set about catching Cod, & haul’d up a great many. Hitherto I had stuck to my Resolution of not eating animal Food; and on this Occasion, I consider’d … the taking every Fish as a kind of unprovok’d Murder, since none of them had or ever could do us any Injury that might justify the Slaughter. All this seem’d very reasonable. But I had formerly been a great Lover of Fish, & when this came hot out of the Frying Pan, it smeled admirably well. I balanc’d some time between Principle & Inclination: till I recollected, that when the Fish were opened, I saw smaller Fish taken out of their Stomachs: Then thought I, if you eat one another, I don’t see why we mayn’t eat you. So I din’d upon Cod very heartily and continu’d to eat with other People, returning only now & then occasionally to a vegetable Diet. So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do.

and yet again....

Ben Franklin

“When a human being kills an animal for food, he is neglecting his own hunger for justice. Man prays for mercy, but is unwilling to extend it to others. Why then should man expect mercy from God? It is unfair to expect something that you are not willing to give.”

Peace

I just feel obliged to point out IR1984 that according to your own argument here the optimum diet includes steroids, as you say to get to the upper tiers of the sport. Doesn't matter if you eat beef or beans or babies, you gotta take drugs to be a serious contender.

I don't want to delve into that argument too deeply, as you know it's not what I consider core (or even periphery) to the benefits of the whole vego thing anyway and yes this whole thread was off kilter and in the wrong forum anyway. However has been some interesting points here & there & I've learnt a few things

oh yes and to the END of THread guy who was ranting about his cravings. um cravings are not necessarily the way to discern your diet, ask anyone down at McDonalds at 3am or perhaps a heroin junkie - so eat whatever you crave guy and good luck.

edit: sorry i got posts mixed up

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Shar_Chi]

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
I just feel obliged to point out IR1984 that according to your own argument here the optimum diet includes steroids, as you say to get to the upper tiers of the sport. Doesn't matter if you eat beef or beans or babies, you gotta take drugs to be a serious contender.

What? I'm afraid you're abusing my argument! The steroids are for bodybuilding only, or certain medical conditions of course. As someone else pointed out, if you use steroids you could achieve award winning gains. However that's because the steroids change body chemistry. We were also saying that a natural meat eater, most of the time, will outlift a vegan at the extremes and that's i'm afraid true.

If you took twins, gave one meat and the other a vegan diet. Got them both under the same exercise program, i bet you any money that the meat eater progresses faster and gets stronger with less effort. His recovery times will be shorter and he'll be able to crank out that last rep that his vegan friend won't. The reasonf or that is creatine in the muscles, which only comes from meat, allowing rapid energy production via the conversion of ATP in muscle cells.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
I don't want to delve into that argument too deeply, as you know it's not what I consider core (or even periphery) to the benefits of the whole vego thing anyway and yes this whole thread was off kilter and in the wrong forum anyway. However has been some interesting points here & there & I've learnt a few things

Well the thread was about the scientific not moral concerns and so we have addressed the scientific ones. The facts are the optimal diet does involve meat as someone above agreed. However it doesn't mean you have to eat meat or should eat meat. If you choose not to on moral grounds, or even medical grounds then that's fine.

For example certain kidney and liver conditions mean you have to abandon meat, i know someone with kidney stones who after giving up meat seriously reduced the amount she now gets. She still does get them but they tend to grow less rapidly and can be destroyed with sound waves. So sometimes a vegan diet is preferable.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
oh yes and to the END of THread guy who was ranting about his cravings. um cravings are not necessarily the way to discern your diet, ask anyone down at McDonalds at 3am or perhaps a heroin junkie - so eat whatever you crave guy and good luck.

What i thnk he was trying to say, with a lack of linguistic art is that he does what his body tells him. If it's gagging for meat then he probably needs meat, listening to your body is a very interesting thing. I've been doing it for years, when i go to eat i ask the question and a meal pops into my head. Maybe that's my subconcious trying to give me the needed vitamins and minerals that are most useful at the time. Or i could be talking utter nonsense of course

If my body demanded heroin though i wouldn't be having any lol.

You talk about humans not finding living animals attractive as a food, therefore we are not meant to eat meat. Please explain one simple point to me then.

My dog visably salivates as I pour him his dinner from the can, he stands watching me, making little puddles of saliva on my tiles.

However when he sits at the back door watching a squirel or a rabbit he does not.

he, has the instict to chase it of course (should he be in the right mood) but he clearly doesn't consider it food in the same way as he does his dinner. The one day he did catch a squirel he was so shocked he spat it out.

I believe that it is our adaptability, with food and technology that has made us the dominant species on the planet. We have no need to see a living animal as a delicous foodstuff, because we know it is through reasoning and logic. We haven't needed to instinctively identify foods for thousands of years, so we have lost it, the same applies to my dog.

Besides, when was the last time you salivated over a carrot?

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

Ok, I think we all agree here that optimal diet varies from individual to individual, and sometimes involves meat and sometimes doesn't. In the near future I'll look to starting a diff thread on the subject perhaps in more appropriate space and with some good discussions. I dunno, my threads tend to get banished to cul-de-sac forums though

reply to post by Shar_Chi


Well i say that for the majority that meat in the diet is good, i only think veganism is good for people if they have a specific medical condition.

We're omnivores. If you take into account more beyond the physiological differences that can be seen with the naked eye, you'd find our diet is meant to contain a healthy balance of both (more of it should be plant life though). A diet of pure meat or pure vegetables would lead to numerous deficiencies and developmental problems. We also have a host of enzymes and structures to deal with materials found in both but we're really not all that efficient at breaking down meat or plants when compared to pure carnivores or herbivores. I mean why aren't we nice and cozy for bacteria with the enzymes to break down plant structures like cellulose? (even though there are things that happen in the enzymatically active that aid we still are at a loss).

Maybe at some point ancestors of our species preferred the leafy, but evolution sufficed on a solution that shaped us into proficient omnivores. Considering our early conditions, it makes sense.

reply to post by Shar_Chi


oh yes and to the END of THread guy who was ranting about his cravings. um cravings are not necessarily the way to discern your diet, ask anyone down at McDonalds at 3am or perhaps a heroin junkie - so eat whatever you crave guy and good luck. Shar_Chi I had to laugh because you took my post the wrong way if I read you correctly.McDonalds,um maybe 5 times to 10 per year I'll go there.Drugs,no thanks.My cravings don't make me a junkie.A little junk food,no problem.I was trying to show the effects of the aging process on change of diet and adaptability of a somewhat avg male.I'm not the health nut I should be,nor the dietician who frets about everything. I cook my own meals whoo hoo. I also have always paid attention to my body's wants and needs and struck a balance(never a perfect balance).

Originally posted by Cythraul
reply to post by jfj123

 

Actually, the guy clearly states in the thread that he doesn't take supplements or steroids. You could, obviously, conclude that he's lying but then that's an easy way to blunt my argument isn't it.

I've seen a lot of steroid use and can easily tell who's juicing and who's not.

If I showed you a line-up of vegan bodybuilders you could claim that they're all on steroids - and your only reason for doing so would be because of your belief that it's impossible to achieve a big physique naturally on a vegan diet.

Actually, I would tell you the truth. If there were non-steroid users, I would tell you. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Line em up and let's see.

When you start off, everyone tells you you can’t build muscle on a vegan diet but those who try are usually surprised at just how doable it is.

Oh it's possible to grow muscle on a vegan diet. It's also possible to build muscle on a McDonalds diet. It doesn't mean it's the best way to do it or the healthiest.

. I am vegan because I totally disagree with factory farming

I find that very honorable that you're taking a stand for something you believe in. Always give a thumbs up to someone willing to do what they say and say what they do.

Here's a vegan bodybuilder. Watch the video.
MEET Kenneth Williams
www.all-creatures.org...


Here's a meat eating bodybuilder
MEAT Ronnie Coleman
www.youtube.com...

One of the many problems with vegan bodybuilding is that their diet is too low in fat. Fat is needed to help regulate hormone levels.

[edit on 20-6-2008 by jfj123]

reply to post by jfj123


I think that proves a small amount of meat in the diet is the optimal diet. The difference between those two is very clear, whlst the vegan has a nice shape he is dwarfed in comparison. His definition isn't maxed and the individual muscles don't show the same development in their different areas.

Again i will state if you are a vegan or vegetarian based on your moral foundings then you have my respect. Honestly you absolutely have my respect, but please don't give the arguement that it's a diet that is just as good as a meat eaters diet under intense activity. Whilst a heavy meat eating diet has been shown to increase rates of many diseases, including cancer, I am not advocating a heavy meat eating diet. I am advocating a heavy veg diet with small amounts of meat.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I think that proves a small amount of meat in the diet is the optimal diet.

Sounds reasonable but again this statement is far too general my friend, I think you should reconsider the syntax. And I am not saying YOUR optimal diet should be meat free either. It varies.

See I don't need to lift weights or anything like that, so in my case 'optimal' means sustained energy delivery throughout the day evenly balanced across physical, mental and spiritual parameters. I was a meat eater 20+ years and vego for 10, and I can tell you straight my 'optimal' diet for the above does not involve meat, and I have no medical conditions.

If you argue a small amount of meat is the optimal diet for weightlifting, backed up by youtube vids etc, well I won't debate it as it doesn't personally concern me one way or the other.

edit: Ok after re-reading i note that the context of your post is regarding weight lifting or intense physical loads, and I have no comment to make there as it doesn't concern me or my personal experience. carry on

[edit on 21-6-2008 by Shar_Chi]

Originally posted by Shar_Chi

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I think that proves a small amount of meat in the diet is the optimal diet.

Sounds reasonable but again this statement is far too general my friend, I think you should reconsider the syntax. And I am not saying YOUR optimal diet should be meat free either. It varies.

See I don't need to lift weights or anything like that, so in my case 'optimal' means sustained energy delivery throughout the day evenly balanced across physical, mental and spiritual parameters. I was a meat eater 20+ years and vego for 10, and I can tell you straight my 'optimal' diet for the above does not involve meat, and I have no medical conditions.

If you argue a small amount of meat is the optimal diet for weightlifting, backed up by youtube vids etc, well I won't debate it as it doesn't personally concern me one way or the other.

edit: Ok after re-reading i note that the context of your post is regarding weight lifting or intense physical loads, and I have no comment to make there as it doesn't concern me or my personal experience. carry on

[edit on 21-6-2008 by Shar_Chi]

I said it was optimal and i stand by the idea that it's optimal for the majority in regards to maximum health. However i als mentioned above about certain medical conditions being a lot better on a vegan diet, please check above to see that. I'm not biased i go on the science and if developed a kidney condition i'd be switching to veganism faster than you can imaigne.

Also certain sports like marathon running are absolutely fine on a vegan diet, i mentioned that earlier as well. A vegan i think would achieve just as much as a meat eater with regards to marathon running as it's a whole different sport and puts very different physical demands on the body.

We were talking about the scientific ideas so your spiritual point makes no difference. Mental well being also is based upon your morals and so that isn't part of the arguement either. The physical side, well i would always argue that a diet containing small amounts of meat will work for a healthy person. I think the way vegans often talk about feeling better is because they want to feel better and expect to. Because their morals are so against eating animals, when they stop they sense a lifting of a burden in a way and so that would lead to well being. That does not however deal with physical science it deals with psychology based on the persons moral constraints.

I see you edited your post, i guess a lot of what i said wasn't needed, oh well, i typed it now so i'm not wasting it

My point is that if it's shown that a meat eaters diet is the only way to achieve the maximum in bodybuilding, even comparing non drug users here, then i think that speaks volumes about the human diet. It says firstly that we were built to eat meat as a species, it says secondly that the human body operates at peak performance whilst consuming some meat.

Again though, in our modern society if you wish to be vegan due to not wanting animals to suffer then you can be. I would never say it's wrong morally speaking and due to the lesser demands of modern life compared with our ancestors, it's a diet you can live off of and be healthy.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


OK the only thing I'd question there is on the point of mental energy which imo is not necessarily correlated to or equivalent with one's ethics. Mental energy to me is more about energy for problem solving and abstract thought. Since giving up meat I can report my mental clarity certainly increased and i was far less lethargic, but admittedly metaphysical clarity got the biggest boost. Your point about vegos relieving their burden of ethics rings true to me, but I consider that pertaining to the 'spiritual' or metaphysical realm rather than mental. These are semantics of course.

This thread is a joke.

So many people, like you, yes you, take for granted the pleasure and blessing of being able to choose what you want to eat. In my country you either eat whatever you can or you die a slow and painfull death on the side of a dirt road.

Be carefull, the line of seperation between a bountiful harvest and death is a very thin one.




[edit on 21-6-2008 by n0b0DY]

[edit on 21-6-2008 by n0b0DY]

Actually I wasn't aware I was denying science in my post! But science is and should always be in a state of flux. As new theories come to light or challenge older ones they should be tested, and if found valid should take science forward, nothing should be discounted (even if at first sight it it seems outrageous) or science stagnates.

However, back on topic:

If people want to eat meat thats up to them its their choice, as is Vegetarianism/Veganism. It doesn't negate the fact that the vegetarian diet has been found to be healthier than a meat diet. To such an extent that Insurance companies now offer lower premiums to Veggies because they are likely to live longer.

For the record I'd just like to say that obviously if we lived in a post apocalyptic world, it would be sensible to eat whatever we we could find to survive. At present this in not the case and we have the luxury of choice. In fact, in a world where most natural life had been destroyed perhaps we would all as survivors be eating processed food made from fungus! But Vegans/Veggies would already be used to this :-)