American 'Ultra Black' Reversed Engineered Projects

Back in the 80s it was suspected that the NSA was about 10 - 50 years ahead of the other code-breaking organizations in the world.

It may have been true, but that gap has deteriorated, and with the advent of modern desk-top computers, it's not known if they have any kind of significant lead in that field. I'm basing this mainly on comments made by Bamford and other followers of these black agencies.

As far as the arms forces having craft or technology 50 to 100 years in advance of current manufacturing, I'm calling BS. It's one thing to be that advanced because of having a monopoly of the resources (as NSA did in the 80s), and be advanced in math, but these people would have us believing that we that advanced amount of equipment (and the necessary exa-flop computing power). It's nonsense.

As far as stealth, it's suggested that a 10 year gap is a reasonable assessment for our lead over the other industrialized nations.

As I mentioned in another post, the projects which are greenlighted are also put under financial constrants and they're done to fulfill a project request. IOW, the AF orders a low observable craft, and Lockheed, Boeing or Northrop submit bids for it and make prototypes and then there's a winner and a production run is made.

Other craft would be done with a similar model. They don't normally do one-offs, with a possible exception being something lie a test-bed project as was the Sea Shadow for the Navy. They don't do projects for requirements which don't yet exist, (such as would something 100 years in the future.

What's important are the production methods, how materials are acquired, how much can be put together with off-the-shelf equipment, how costly it will be.

There's absolutely no evidence for either this level of production methods in existence and no off-the-shelf anti-grav engine to build upon. There's certainly no need for these either. We have almost total control of the skies, and except for the need for a more robust anti-anti-satellite weaponry we're building the Joint Strike Fighter.

With absolutely no evidence of these methods, some 'background leakage' of these supposedly exotic craft, and production methods, I'm seriously doubting this is happening.

Now, had we already built a robust space delivery system, a strong permanent ISS, and a thriving base on the Moon, THEN I might be convinced there could be a hidden exotic craft industry.

[edit on 8-6-2008 by Badge01]

reply to post by Badge01


Haha,you didn't answer my question(are you a guy or gal').

Also your not taking into account the need we would have for these craft if we had to protect ourselves from an extra terrestrial threat.Also you are not taking into account that the egos of the PTB and the never ending desire to totally 'blow away' any other countries technology,meaning if we can be 100 years ahead,you can bet we will be 100 years ahead.If you develop these technologies now you secure your safety for 100 years,rather than waiting until you need them it might be to late.Also in the 'shadow' world money is nearly 'non-existent',meaning it is not an issue.

Ok - heres one from a very undoubtable source that even if the US government has had or is working on secret stuff, even the super cutting edge black stealth developers don't know about it.

Lockheed kelly Johnson flying saucer sighting

Theres too much to qoute it, but it is a solid reminder that even a few years after WW2 these craft were overflying the USA at regular intervals and this sighting has multiple witnesses from multiple locations and all describe the same object.

What i'm trying to say is that some where inside the USA is possibly a developmnet team that is totally 100% outside of the normal loop of power. So secretive that not even the man who designed the U-2 and A-12 knew about. Nor a General.

reply to post by Badge01


Also Badge I will quote a friend of mines(Dan Tanna,above me,lol) signature as to why we make these 'exotic' craft.

signature
A senior officer on the Joint Staff remarked that "we still treat certain capabilities as pearls too precious to wear - we acknowledge their value, but because of their value, we lock them up and don't use them for fear of losing them".

[edit on 6/8/2008 by jkrog08]

I tend to agree....militaries in general develop weapons that they forsee needing 10-20 years down the road as practice. Just look at the development of VX gas. WAY ahead of its time but UK forsaw the possible need for it. so they put money into it. The U.S. military "black" budget is just like as was said, non-existant. other than the funds physically given to the people working and to contractors, there are no monies. No paper trail, no questions.

'One of the most hopeful aspects of the problem is that until recently gravitation could be observed but not experimented on in any controlled fashion, while now with the advent in the past two years of the new high-energy accelerators (the Cosmotron and the even more recent Berkeley Bevatron) the new particles which have been linked with the gravitational field can be examined and worked with at will .'

You see this ? this is 1955. 1955 people. 53 years ago. FIFTY THREE YEARS AGO. You still kidding your selves that in FIFTY THREE years we still know jack squat about anti gravity and how to use it in craft ?

Source: NEW YORK HERALD-TRIBUNE:
Sunday, November 20, 1955

Anti Gravity 1955

"TR3 is a bastardisation of Tier 3."


Agree. The "Tier" system was used back in the 1990s to identify the early UAV/UCAV developments that we see today.


"With respect that does not scan, why would Space Command be flying F-16s when their area of operations is missiles and satellites. "


Yes, why would Space Command be flying F-16s in any role and, at that, why the older Block 30s? All F-16s in service today operate under the Air Combat Command, Reserves, National Guard, or NASA to my knowledge.


"This is all academic of course since the TR3-b has to be proven to exist first before you can start assigning roles to it. ext"

Really? When? Where are the pictures of it? The pilot testimonies from those who operated it? The tech specs regarding the aircraft's construction, propulsion, and performance. None? Oh, well, then it's not proven to exist and in all very much liklihood is a fabrication of the imagination from a misunderstanding a decade-plus past.

----
"And no you don't have a friend that is an "insider" on one of these "ultra black" projects. Why? because it's part of their Non-Disclosure Agreement they have. There is no "government insider here" as much as some on ATS.com have tried to tell people they have for the sake of attention or what not."
---

Oh.My.Gawd!

Have you EVER BEEN in ANY Compartmentalized or Special Access Program?
The leaks can be HORRENDOUS and a damn B**** to plug.

Contractors, Administrators, The DAMN 3 & 4 Start Generals!, etc.
The easiest to keep quiet are the scientists and R&D personnel
themselves because most of them LOVE their work and would HATE
to be booted off their own projects because of an indiscretion
on their part. A simple written reprimand and stark reminder
of their duties usually does the trick.

99% of leaks are from loosely affiliated project officers or materials
contractors, that although may not know the full details of a CAP or SAP
project, know enough to "theorize" or to infer further details of said program.
Enough alcohol or a small "club" gathering and loose lips start talking
and usually embellished details get sputtered out.

They don't call Aviation Week magazine "Aviation Leak" for nothing!
you would be surprised at what a good steak barbecue and
some beer will do for the commercial intelligence insiders
from magazines, blogs, etc.

Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't!
But the mere fact that a program exists is an intelligence nightmare
but is not an easy fix without some dis-information work.

Firing someone in MOST cases is the worst thing to do
unless the violation is so blatant that SOMETHING must be done.

In most cases, a written reprimand, a reasonable but stinging
monetary fine and a VERY SERIOUS 4 hour GRILLING by a
250 lbs, 6'3" Clad-in-All-Black security officer with an
unloaded SigSau on the table in a 10x12 mirrored room works wonders
on that employee/contractor....they will NEVER tell secrets again!

The problem is with the Mavericks....those civilians who hate authority
and although VERY GOOD on a technical project basis, threats don't
and won't work on them very well...in fact, the REVENGE factor weighs
in heavily on those types and physical coercion usually won't work
unless TRUE and OBVIOUS IMMEDIATE BRUTALIZATION is INTENDED
and DISPLAYED! By that, I mean, if you say you're gonna shoot him,
then you do it RIGHT NOW!!! - IN THE KNEES and then send him to a
base infirmary indicating that an accidental base security issue was at
play and that this worker/contractor was the unfortunate victim.
Only then do they get the message, that you're playing for KEEPS!

These types are the ones that aren't or shouldn't have been HIRED in
the first place, but sometimes they somehow get through the screening
process anyways, so the best thing is to simply fire them in a clinically
administrative manner and remind them that they have signed
confidentiality agreements and that lawsuits, fines, prison terms
and "Corporate Blacklisting" could be very painful on a financial basis.
Since these mavericks are motivated by two things: "Boredom"
and "Finances" therefore loss of lucrative contracts and lack of
further access to "Cool Projects" can be a good motivator
to keep in line.

Reminding them that we don't care what they do and they should just
get over it and continue on with their lives in an other capacity
is the best approach. Raising their ackles with extreme threats
only excacerbates the situation and will cause them to
"Go Public" making the case intelligence officer's life more problematic.
A simple dismissive, clinical manner can keep the rhetoric down
and the ackles of the "Maverick" kept to within acceptable limits.

And if that doesn't work, a good disinformation campaign
also works - Written personal & professional attacks and
some "Bad Reporting" can work wonders to shredding a
reputation!

reply to post by JoeinTX


----
Agree. The "Tier" system was used back in the 1990s to identify the early UAV/UCAV developments that we see today.
----

One slight correction, the Tier series development craft
were ALSO research platforms for advanced coatings and
low-return-signature materials development.

The butt-ugly whale with the B2 like cockpit being one of them.

en.wikipedia.org...

The PTB like to use two word non-clemantures to denote
Research aircraft (i.e. Tacit Blue) that explore very explicit
areas of R&D versus active platforms that lead to final deployment
(aka Senior Citizen)...If the codename has a colour in it,
it's a specialized R&D craft - If it's a code name with a
material name in it or a noun-modifier (Darkstar, Senior Citizen,
?????-Diamond) then it's an active platform designed for
eventual deployment.

Tier series craft are NOT just UAV's but also manned recon
and ECM craft exploring optical and audio stealth and
active countermeasures.

Hope that helps!!!!

If this is true, why didn't they just reproduce a replica of the original roswell craft? Why waste time and money producing the "T-series" craft when we allready had the FTL-saucer technology in our hands?

You said he knew about time travel? I would like to hear more about that.

I believe in advanced technology maybe even backwards engineered extraterrestrial technology. But I don't believe it to be as advanced as you claim them to be.

Why simple: if this technology is out there and we can control it, it would be Worth more to "The US" and earth then when you keep it a secret.

We could explore new worlds and even harvest al the energy or food that we could supply or feed 2 x earth for ever.

The only reason not sharing, that I can make up is. That it would make us al very lazy and it would destroy world economy and we would just stop evolving as we have done (and there is the psychological factor) . We the "normal" people get to use what we have invented or what we would have invented any way the rest is of limits just to maintain and preserve our future as humans and to keep the creator and inventor in us alive!.

Your missing the point.

This technology is not shared out freely because of the freedoms it would bring to the world.

These powerful men and women would lose money, vast amounts of it, and with their secrets out they would also lose vast amounts of power and sway.

However, if your 'in the know' and part of the priveliged few, then your on the way up and up.

The people have made and broke Presidents, so do you really think they give two poos about you or I as joe ordinary ?

No way they do. Profit, power, elitism - thats their mantra and they are going to live and die by it.

[edit on 9-6-2008 by Dan Tanna]

I would think these black ops have also created quantum computers,*we* should be expecting them in 10/15 years or so...i think they would be able to crack just about anything,Probably do lots more aswell.I dont think they are reverse engineering alien technology though.

[edit on 9-6-2008 by Lethil]

The idea that humans could be able to reverse engineer alien technology and reuse that technology is entertaining. It is also romantic, but by no means realistic.

We must assume that the aliens who are able to travel to earth from far-off solar systems or galaxies are not only generations but eons ahead of us in development. We must also assume that they are physiologically and biologically very different from us to the extent that we can only guess at what they 'are made of'. Finally, their scientific and engineering disciplines will very probably differ greatly from those in use here on Earth as will their whole value set, philosophy, culture and view of the world.

Let us assume what would happen if someone from the 21st century were to leave a state-of-the-art high-powered laptop with a scholar from the 17th century. Let us also assume, for the sake of generosity, that this laptop came along with a power cord and all the CDROMs needed for installing the software running on the laptop. How well would our 17th-century scholar be able to reverse engineer the laptop and build a similar device based on that technology. We must remember that were are talking about a difference of only 300 years, not the massive gap that potentially exists between us and an alien race. First of all, there would be problems with powering up the laptop, which would require a suitable socket. The whole concept of electricity would still be in its infancy, not to mention a suitable power grid. Opening the laptop would require precision screwdrivers, and caution would have to be taken not to damage the precision components on the inside. The chances of a 17th-century laptop being developed on the basis of the 21st-century model are pretty bleak. In this case, there are many more similarities between the places from which the laptop came and where it was left than between the alien world and ours.

In light of the above example, can we honestly say it realistic to think that we can actually succeed in reverse-engineering alien technology, or are these claims more romantic speculation as to the capabilities we wish that we as a race possessed?

I'm not saying yes or no, I'm just throwing in an interesting idea for the sake of conversation...

Spooky man Just Spooky

Stargate SG-7:I agree with your post but I was wondering what you meant by this:

Reminding them that we don't care what they do

JoeinTX:

Really? When? Where are the pictures of it? The pilot testimonies from those who operated it? The tech specs regarding the aircraft's construction, propulsion, and performance. None? Oh, well, then it's not proven to exist and in all very much liklihood is a fabrication of the imagination from a misunderstanding a decade-plus past.

As far as 'official' specs I can offer none,but I can offer this(which has been posted earlier in this thread but I will post it again for you in a summary form):

A friend said, he would never forget the sight of the alien looking TR-3B based at Papoose. The pitch black, triangular shaped TR-3B was rarely mentioned--and then, only in hushed whispers--at the Groom Lake facility where he worked. The craft had flown over the Groom Lake runway in complete silence and magically stopped above Area S-4. It hovered silently in the same position, for some 10 minutes, before gently settling vertically to the tarmac. At times a corona of silver blue light glowed around the circumference of the massive TR-3B. The operational model is 600 feet across.


The TR-3B is Code named Astra.


The tactical reconnaissance TR-3B first operational flight was in the early 90s. The triangular shaped nuclear powered aerospace platform was developed under the Top Secret, Aurora Program with SDI and black budget monies. At least 3 of the billion dollar plus TR-3Bs were flying by 1994. The Aurora is the most classified aerospace development program in existence. The TR-3B is the most exotic vehicle created by the Aurora Program. It is funded and operationally tasked by the National Reconnaissance Office, the NSA, and the CIA. The TR-3B flying triangle is not fiction and was built with technology available in the mid 80s.Not every UFO spotted is one of theirs.



The TR-3B vehicle’s outer coating is reactive to electricalRadar stimulation and can change reflectiveness, radar absorptiveness,and color. This polymer skin, when used in conjunction with the TR-3Bs Electronic Counter Measures and, ECCM, can make the vehicle look like a small aircraft, or a flying cylinder--or even trick radar receivers into falsely detecting a variety of aircraft, no aircraft, or several aircraft at various locations.A circular, plasma filled accelerator ring called the Magnetic Field Disrupter, surrounds the rotatable crew compartment and is far ahead of any imaginable technology.


Sandia and Livermore laboratories developed the reverse engineered MFD technology. The government will go to any lengths to protect this technology. The plasma, mercury based, is pressurized at 250,000 atmospheres at a temperature of 150 degrees Kelvin and accelerated to 50,000 rpm to create a super-conductive plasma with the resulting gravity disruption. The MFD generates a magnetic vortex field, which disrupts or neutralizes the effects of gravity on mass within proximity, by 89 percent. Do not misunderstand. This is not antigravity. Anti-gravity provides a repulsive force that can be used for propulsion. The MFD creates a disruption of the Earth's gravitational field upon the mass within the circular accelerator. The mass of the circular accelerator and all mass within the accelerator, such as the crew capsule, avionics, MFD systems, fuels, crew environmental systems, and the nuclear reactor, are reduced by 89%.This causes the effect of making the vehicle extremely light and able to outperform and outmaneuver any craft yet constructed--except, of course, those UFOs we did not build.



The TR-3B is a high altitude, stealth, reconnaissance platform with an indefinite loiter time. Once you get it up there at speed, it doesn’t take much propulsion to maintain altitude.At Groom Lake their have been whispered rumours of a new element that acts as a catalyst to the plasma.With the vehicle mass reduced by 89%, the craft can travel at Mach 9, vertically or horizontally. My sources say the performance is limited only the stresses that the human pilots can endure. Which is a lot, really, considering along with the 89% reduction in mass, the G forces are also reduced by 89%.


The TR-3Bs propulsion is provided by 3 multimode thrusters mounted at each bottom corner of the triangular platform. The TR-3 is a sub-Mach 9 vehicle until it reaches altitudes above l20,000 feet--then God knows how fast it can go!The 3 multimode rocket engines mounted under each corner of the craft use hydrogen or methane and oxygen as a propellent.In a liquid oxygen/hydrogen rocket system, 85% of the propellent mass is oxygen. The nuclear thermal rocket engine uses a hydrogen propellent, augmented with oxygen for additional thrust. The reactor heats the liquid hydrogen and injects liquid oxygen in the supersonic nozzle, so that the hydrogen burns concurrently in the liquid oxygen afterburner.The multimode propulsion system can; operate in the atmosphere, with thrust provided by the nuclear reactor, in the upper atmosphere, with hydrogen propulsion, and in orbit, with the combined hydrogen\ oxygen propulsion.


What you have to remember is, that the 3 rocket engines only have to propel 11 percent of the mass of the Top Secret TR-3B. The engines are reportedly built by Rockwell.Many sightings of triangular UFOs are not alien vehicles but the top secret TR-3B. The NSA, NRO, CIA, and USAF have been playing a shell game with aircraft nomenclature - creating the TR-3, modified to the TR-3A, the TR-3B, and the Teir 2, 3, and 4, with suffixes like Plus or Minus added on to confuse further the fact that each of these designators is a different aircraft and not the same aerospace vehicle. A TR-3B is as different from a TR-3A as a banana is from a grape. Some of these vehicles are manned and others are unmanned.

Now some pics you asked for

Rendition of TR-3B from 'whistle blower'



Likely TR-3B in the infamous 'Belgium sighting'


Yet another 'mysteriously similar picture'


Here's another night pic of the same craft,but in another part of the world



Here's a pic of the schematics possibly used for the crafts 'mass reduction system'***NOTE-This schematic was drawn up in the sixties,so like my friend 'Dan Tanna' said "We have had this capability for many decades."


Do you notice the striking similarity of all the craft in the pictures to the reported look of the TR-3B?

Originally posted by jkrog08
reply to post by Badge01

 

Also your not taking into account the need we would have for these craft if we had to protect ourselves from an extra terrestrial threat.

I don't believe this premise is well thought out, since people are not really considering what it would take to protect the Earth from a non-terrestrial threat. Any such force would have command of Space. It would be like them having jets and aircraft carriers while we are still trying to guard with fixed cannon on the walls of brick and mortar forts.

We are barely able to keep the ISS staffed and orbiting. We do NOT have command of the skies, and are barely able to hang onto the Shuttle program and keep it flying. It takes 40 orbits and gravity assist just to get to the altitude of the ISS using chemical rockets.

To really be able to protect our 'space' from an ET threat would require a 'fleet' of ships, able to cruise easily in our orbit and to the moon without the need for gravity assist (for example).

To accomplish this we would need an entire industry, not just a couple ships built in a remote lab. You would not only be unable to hide it, but it would also be robust enough that we would not need to hide it or be protective of the technology.

The scenarios I'm seeing talk about isolated craft, built with one-time tooling in remote locations (which would required transport of production materials and sustenance).

So I'm guessing that we are only 10 years in advance of current manufacturing, or were in the 60s and 70s. Currently we are only that advanced in the area of stealth.

With no evidence of technological 'leakage', or advanced production methods, I think it's rather foolish to presume any wildly advanced technology exists.

Remember the fastest strides in that field is usually done under some kind of intense pressure such as during a war. We made great advances in the 40s and 50s. But currently we are in a slower development cycle typically found during peacetime.

Originally posted by jkrog08
Do you notice the striking similarity of all the craft in the pictures to the reported look of the TR-3B?

I notice the fact that the TR-3B myth is bent to try and accomodate them into triangular UFO sightings.

Show me something new, produced within the past 5 years on the subject, that isn't a re-hash of every single other article about the supposed TR-3B.

Show us articles sourced from recognised industry and military experts about it, not from "friends" or "unnamed sources".

reply to post by neformore


Unfortunately as you and I both know the whole premise of a 'ultra black' project is that there is no documentation available to the public,hence the name 'ultra BLACK.The only reason I have talked about the TR-3B is that when I found out about it,(on this thread as I had no prior knowledge of it before a few days ago)it appeared frighteningly similar to the unnamed aircraft my source talked about and that I heard and saw.What does the age of the pictures have to do with anything,it is obvious they all show the same thing!Now whats more plausible-that these aliens who refuse(for some reason)to show themselves for some reason keep flying around in their black triangles,or the triangles are ours and that they are possibly using reversed engineered technology recovered from(at the least) the Roswell crash(a hard to dispute extra terrestrial event)?

Now don't twist that last statement as me contradicting myself as I believe we have had more than one encounter with aliens and that we are in league with some of them.I was just using that comparaison as a 'least unsubstantiated' dichotomy.