Girl died as parents prayed instead of seeking help

This isnt the right thread for that discussion

Many here are claiming that God doesn't exist and are allowed to do that freely within this same thread. So, why isn't this the right thread for that discussion since the opposing side brought it up first and has not been admonished for it?

Considering the news topic, I'd say it's definitely on topic, and this website is not supposed to be one-sided.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR
Put them in jail on through away the key. This is flat out murder. At the very least negligent homicide.
These people make me sick . Its one thing to deny treatment for yourself as an adult that can make that choice . But to FORCE it on a child. Just on "Faith"? . Thats just wrong .

[edit on 26-3-2008 by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR]

Likewise, forcing faith, you cannot force faith in medicine.

Stupid?

Yes.

its insane.

But, it is these people faith, and the government has no right to tell people that they HAVE to accept medical attention.

30 days and no one noticed her missing? Not even from school? Unless she was homeschooled.. either way, a religious family who does not want to recieve conventional medication, should not have to.

At what point do you say that the parents cannot force their beliefs on their children? Presumably if those parents believed in ritual sex and the children were involved in sexual acts that would be different? As a point of principle it is not (unless you list all beliefs that parents can force on their children and those that they can't and whose to judge which belief goes on which list?). The only difference, in this case, is that there is law against sex with children and there is no law against withdrawing medical care for children that would prevent their death. At least with the sexual practice the child would still be alive!!!!!!

It is in situations like these that the state has a role as the overall guardian of minors and mentally disabled to ensure that the rights they would have as adults are protected until they are adults or are able to make adult decisions. It is not the right of parents to force their beliefs on their children to their detriment. Needless to say this would cause howls of protest from certain relgious sects.

Originally posted by Jessicamsa

This isnt the right thread for that discussion

Many here are claiming that God doesn't exist and are allowed to do that freely within this same thread. So, why isn't this the right thread for that discussion since the opposing side brought it up first and has not been admonished for it?

Considering the news topic, I'd say it's definitely on topic, and this website is not supposed to be one-sided.

I have to side with you on this one. It seems that there is a snobbish attitude prevalent here. It's cool to demean and speak derisively about the concept of faith, but it's gauche to believe otherwise. Interesting to say the least. It begs the question of how 'free' you are to express your opinions here if they don't fly in the face of the atheist-elite.

Sorry to say, it took me only a couple of weeks to figure that out. It is stereotypically true of intellectuals who fervently deny the validity of faith as an aspect of the human condition. For them it's my way or your a fanatic sicko - don't take it personally though, their reaction seems laced with something akin to bigotry; so I suspect there is an element of ignorance to it.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by Maxmars]

I have to side with you on this one. It seems that there is a snobbish attitude prevalent here. It's cool to demean and speak derisively about the concept of faith, but it's gauche to believe otherwise. Interesting to say the least. It begs the question of how 'free' you are to express your opinions here if they don't fly in the face of the atheist-elite.

Bravo ! Three cheers ! You really hit the nail on the head with that one. I give you a star.

reply to post by Jessicamsa


This attitude towards Christians is very rampant on this site. The people subject in this debate claimed to belong to no church. They had no formal Bible teachings and they lived their life by that. I think that sort of thing is driving some Christian haters up the wall here. They do not realize that the majority of Christians in the world are not extremists like this. It will be truly interesting to see the full autopsy reports.

This is horrible, but it correlates with the recent scientific findings that prayer has no effect on your overall well being.

I hope they are charged with negligent homicide. How uneducated to you have to be to realize your child is dying, it's the 21st century for christ sake.

This is horrible, but it correlates with the recent scientific findings that prayer has no effect on your overall well being.

I hope they are charged with negligent homicide. How uneducated to you have to be to realize your child is dying, it's the 21st century for christ sake.

reply to post by xion329alpha


But this is pitting science against faith. Science has no absolute proof that prayer has no effect. I've heard several doctors informing their patients to pray. Not prayer in place of treatment, but to pray nontheless.

Originally posted by Christian Voice
reply to post by Jessicamsa

 

This attitude towards Christians is very rampant on this site. The people subject in this debate claimed to belong to no church. They had no formal Bible teachings and they lived their life by that. I think that sort of thing is driving some Christian haters up the wall here. They do not realize that the majority of Christians in the world are not extremists like this. It will be truly interesting to see the full autopsy reports.

Oh stop being a victim.

Most people here aren't anti-Christian or anti-religion. If you don't want your faith questioned, and you are not willing to justify it with a rational argument, then leave ATS. It is a debating forum.

I have questioned Christians' faith on these forums, as I have every right to as it is used as the basis of their argument, and I have been attacked and insulted for it. By you and by others.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by rizla]

Originally posted by Christian Voice
reply to post by xion329alpha

 

But this is pitting science against faith. Science has no absolute proof that prayer has no effect. I've heard several doctors informing their patients to pray. Not prayer in place of treatment, but to pray nontheless.

Maybe. But if you resorted to prayer to save your dying child instead of seeking medical aid, what would that make you?

In defense of my defense...

The attitude I described here does not limit itself to anti-Christianity. My contention is that faith, in whatever form it manifests itself, is a powerful element of human nature. There is much evidence to the contrary of 'prayer doesn't affect well being, and I'm rather surprised that any 'scientist' would deign to claim otherwise. But I really don't want to get into a 'he said' - 'she said' debate regarding the claims of scientists whose motivations are increasingly less than balanced in such studies. It always seems to end with an argument regarding who's paid to say what, and by whom.

My point is that there is a lot to be said for the 'power' of faith, especially in personal experiences. I tend to lean less towards thinking that one's person's faith can heal another, than that each person can affect his or her own health with faith.

I am, nevertheless, still of the opinion that this tragic death was avoidable (probably).

Although I firmly believe most would find me to be the least of God's children regardless of their denomination, I will defend anyone's right to sincerely embrace whatever form of faith they deem fit.

Judeo-Christians, and Christians in particular, have to bear the responsibility for some of the bias they face in forums such as these. They have long endorsed practices and prejudices which pale in comparison to the grief they face here. And when it comes to rejecting 'non-believers' who can argue that the Judeo-Christians don't take the all-time witch-hunting awards.

"God's will" has surfaced as the root cause of many horrendous evils perpetrated by a faith which relished in it's blindness towards human freedom. I suspect this has to do with the nature of of slave-religions which often focus on retribution and punishment. It's eventual appearance as 'manifest destiny' and 'divine right' are the crown jewels in that regard (there's a pun in there somewhere - sorry.)

I think, and I'm still developing my position as time goes on, that 'faith' is among the most uniquely 'human' of traits. After all, even atheist believe in things (like your mother loves you, and my friends don't lie to me, etc.) Granted these are trite in comparison to the belief in an external judge of character or reincarnation, but the principle is the same.

I wish to enforce that I draw a distinguishing line between the right to believe in the existence of God (faith) and the existence of God. Whether I believe personally or not is neither here nor there (and frankly, at least here in the US, it's none of G-D##mned business) but I long ago committed myself to protect those who fall under the shadow of 'imposed' belief or 'imposed' non-belief.

I am not rebuking the kind words I have received from some here, but I caution the not to think that I endorse the kind of scripture worship that is circular and exclusionary any more than I endorse rabid atheism.

(what have I gotten myself into? - sorry for the purge - I'll shut up now)

reply to post by rizla


It would not make me a murderer. A person of poor judgement perhaps. It is a very thin line that these people walked. The Bible states that God clearly says, "Worry for nothing, but place your trust in me". As a Christian I have been tought all my life that when you worry and stress over things that it's like a slap in the face to God. I think that there is a difference between worrying and stressing and thinking and preparing. I think these parents may have gone off the deep end of this idea. Perhaps they thought that since they were faithfully praying that if they took their child to the doctor, then it would be them telling God that they don't place all their trust in him. I believe that they were misguided. God sent them people to help, but like the Jews in Jesus' day, they were looking for a great light and sweeping winds to lift up their child and rip out her diabetes before their eyes. They weren't actually praying help her, it seems more like help her our way.
Maybe this theory makes some sense. No justification, just sense.

reply to post by Maxmars

A brilliant 'defense', if I may say so.

I am, nevertheless, still of the opinion that this tragic death was avoidable (probably).

Although I firmly believe most would find me to be the least of God's children regardless of their denomination, I will defend anyone's right to sincerely embrace whatever form of faith they deem fit.

This thread was originally about a tragic death, but (as I suspected it would) it quickly turned into a reason to bash Christianity. You are very correct in your interpretation of the posts; many here take every opportunity to lash out at the Christians, as happens regularly in open society.

My stance from the beginning has been two-fold: Christianity did not kill this girl. Good arguments indicate the parents did, and irregardless of this, the parents hold the final responsibility for the girl. I do not see it as premeditated and deserving of some of the anger that has spewed toward them, however (based on a 'clean autopsy' being returned).

2. I hate to watch people take a tragedy and turn it into a law. The reactions I have seen here actually go to that extreme, to sending child services to investigate all Christians. This is overreaction at its most evil, and in large part the reason we have so many intrusions from government in our daily lives today.

Your sentiments reflect a wise person, and rest assured that while you protect my right to believe, I stand to protect yours to believe otherwise. Thank you for the post, and a star to reflect that.

TheRedneck

I have noticed that not one single person defending these people has answered the many queries of parallel situations.

What if these people had been Muslim? Buddahists? Satanists? Snake charmers? Believed in Hoodo? Star People? Spiritualists?

What if their religion told them that they must do other things detrimental to their children? What if they believed in sexual union with their children? Or multilation? Or beat them until they couldn't walk? Or forced them to fast until they were ill?

Intercession isn't about the state telling parents what to do. It's about realising that children have rights too, that they are not property. That parents are, I'll say this again, Guardians - not owners. And if they fail at this guardianship, then the state has an obligation to the welfare of the children, defending their rights. In this case, the right to live.

reply to post by Jadette


if they were Muslim, i am 100% sure that those people (most) that are defending this act would be going into Islamophobic mode and shouting how evil Islam is.

but then again Islam doesnt prohibit medicine but encourages it.

this family should be arrested for negligence and have the keys thrown away.
the least they could have done is get her diagnosed.

bloody morons they arent fit to be parents

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by Christian Voice
Perhaps, they were waiting on God to cure her and they didn't want to drug her up in the mean time, but there is a fine line there and they crossed it.

The drug in this case would have been insulin, something the body produces naturally. She was a diabetic and went into insulin shock (from the sounds of it) and died as a result of it.

She was not curable by western medicine, but a simple shot of insulin would have allowed her to live the life she no longer can.

Its a tough situation, but regardless of their beliefs, I believe they made the wrong choice.

NO, NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO! You do not die from too much blood sugar in your body! That is why if a paramedic even SUSPECTS someone is diabetic, they will give them sugar (in one form or another).

Too much insulin in the body is another matter entirely. Too much insulin will slip you into a coma rather quickly. In fact, there have been documented cases of people being murdered with insulin injections.

Too much sugar in the body makes you very, very sick. This is the body's way of saying "Hey, don't eat, I've got too much sugar in my system".

Originally posted by Jadette
I have noticed that not one single person defending these people has answered the many queries of parallel situations.

What if these people had been Muslim? Buddahists? Satanists? Snake charmers? Believed in Hoodo? Star People? Spiritualists?

What if their religion told them that they must do other things detrimental to their children? What if they believed in sexual union with their children? Or multilation? Or beat them until they couldn't walk? Or forced them to fast until they were ill?

Intercession isn't about the state telling parents what to do. It's about realising that children have rights too, that they are not property. That parents are, I'll say this again, Guardians - not owners. And if they fail at this guardianship, then the state has an obligation to the welfare of the children, defending their rights. In this case, the right to live.

I think you've really focused down to the real issue at hand. If we could resolve or overcome social inertia we might put an end to the need for these debates (so to speak). I think children have been cheated out of civil rights. The law (at least her in the US) doesn't recognize a child as a citizen, and therefore it denies it's responsibility to evaluate and react to the relationship between the guardian (parents or otherwise) and the child.

Historically, it seems that society has always regarded the offspring as the property of the 'pater/mater familias' thus rendering the youth automatically subject to the lifestyle and moral code of the parent. This was made sacrosanct in the scriptures, to the dismay of those who see some religious observances as abuse (not just declining medical services, but things like female circumcision, forced labor, and other such practices.)

But this might be a topic for another thread since it delves into the differences between spiritual faith and religious practice, as well as the impact a religious majority or religious power-base might have on the structure of the state.

Originally posted by Christian Voice
It would not make me a murderer.

Sure, I don't think I've said it would. Perhaps others have. They should be more careful with their terminology. But what would you be guilty of? Manslaughter? Gross Negligence? You would sure be guilty of some crime.

Originally posted by Jadette
I have noticed that not one single person defending these people has answered the many queries of parallel situations.

What if these people had been Muslim? Buddahists? Satanists? Snake charmers? Believed in Hoodo? Star People? Spiritualists?

What if their religion told them that they must do other things detrimental to their children? What if they believed in sexual union with their children? Or multilation? Or beat them until they couldn't walk? Or forced them to fast until they were ill?

I've made exactly the same point 2 or 3 times, and not one advocate of prayer as a form of healing has responded. Bah.

I just want to butt back in to make a little point . Faith does not = religion .
Think about it like this . If not for faith . Not one single person would be able to sleep. You have faith you will wake up in the morning .ALL of us believe in faith whether directly or in directly . we all practice it. If not we would not lay our heads on that pillow at night.
Religion . Is the faith that there is somehting better out there . (May it be a god or heaven ect) (My interpretation)

Just thought that would maybe help things a bit . Probably not tho . I thought i had a better explanation lol




[edit on 28-3-2008 by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR]