Girl died as parents prayed instead of seeking help

Originally posted by newday
What if they would have took their daughter to the doctor and she died anyway,

All she needed was insulin. She would've been fine. (read the article)

To all those who don't think the other children should be taken away, consider this part. (although it was mentioned earlier)

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.”

I have wittensed God heal people of all kinds of things,

Are you sure that was the only explanation. Mind you, I do believe in the power of prayer.

Are you sure it wasn't their belief in a god that save them, rather that an actual god healing them?

[edit on 27/3/08 by ConspiracyNut23]

If those parents had been practicing Voodoo instead of Christianity, there would be no sympathy or understanding for them. And this particular brand of Christianity is as bad or worse than Voodoo. Ignorant superstition.

I would be nice to have the input of the members of this board who present themselves as Christians and start so many Christian threads. Are we seeing hypocrisy from Christian members? The only exception I see is Christian Voice. Not exactly my buddy, but at least he showed up.

Originally posted by Christian Voice

In essence children are our property. They are our responsibility solely. Contrary to popular belief it does not take a village to raise a child. It takes a loving mother and father to raise a child. I believe that those parents were misguided. Perhaps someone should question their pastor. I am a Christian and I disagree with their decision, but it was their decision and noone elses. If I take my child snow skiing knowing how dangerous it is and he dies, should I be locked up in jail? Same principle. They thought they were doing right. They have lost their child. Locking them up or taking their other ones will not make everything better.

I /strongly/ disagree with you.

With that logic, you're saying that if these people abused their children, they have the right, since the children are the sole responsiblity of the parents.

And allowing their child to DIE is abuse. If these people had been satanic, or muslims, or atheists, or following some star child from outer space, you'd have been all over them in a second.

And yes, if you took your child skiing off an expert slope and they died because you thought GOD would carry them down the mountain, you should go to jail. Your judgement would have been shown to be delusional. If you allow your child to die because you think you can PRAY him back to life, your judgement is faulty and you aren't sane enough to take care of children.

A child has his own rights, as much as any adult. Another person cannot OWN them, any more than another person can own an adult. Parents are caretakers, GUARDIANS - not owners.

If these people had done this to their ANIMALS, people would have thrown them in jail. And you're going to tell me that it's okay for them to do this to another human being because, 'they loved them'?

Another child dead because of stupid Christian parents. Another ATS threads where other Christians come out to defend the stupidity of their own...

"At least she knew they loved her!"
Bull. If they loved her they would have gotten her treatment. These parents didn't love this kid, they loved their religious dogma.

"Maybe they couldn't afford treatment!"
Again, bull. Any parent who cares about their kid would haul ass to the nearest doctor, regardless of cost.

"They should have the rights to freedom of religion!"
Not when it compromises the health or welfare of another person. This is something Christians forget time and time

"But their child is their property!"
...I have no reply to this, except that I can't believe someone actually said this. What I can believe is that the person who said this calls themselves "Christian Voice."

"What if they took her to the doctor and she died anyway!"
Then at least they actually made the effort to save their child. But as noted, all she needed was insulin. That's it, just insulin. Cheap, simple insulin.

It's ridiculous the amount of crap our society will put up with from these stick-worshiping freaks.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Another child dead because of stupid Christian parents. Another ATS threads where other Christians come out to defend the stupidity of their own...

Just out of curiosity, can we assume that they are 'stupid' because they are 'Christians'? Or is it anyone who believes in anything?

"At least she knew they loved her!"
Bull. If they loved her they would have gotten her treatment. These parents didn't love this kid, they loved their religious dogma.

Who died and put you in charge of defining what people do and don't do and why? I don't defend their belief as much as their protection from people who would condemn them based on their belief. I wouldn't have followed their course of action (or inaction as the case may be) but (and again I am assuming here) if they followed the course of action proscribed by their faith, should they be 'judged' based on your lack thereof? That's kind of sad.

"Maybe they couldn't afford treatment!"
Again, bull. Any parent who cares about their kid would haul ass to the nearest doctor, regardless of cost.

Again, is this another mandate of the faithless? Should you're refusal to accept their belief be the litmus test of whether they care or not?

"They should have the rights to freedom of religion!"
Not when it compromises the health or welfare of another person. This is something Christians forget time and time

I won't argue with you there, but not because I don't follow their belief. Unless the child consciously accepted the potential consequences of her parent's faith she was 'victimized' by it. This however, is a double edged sword - she might not have been able to make that call - but even if she had, would we still want to condone it?

"But their child is their property!"
...I have no reply to this, except that I can't believe someone actually said this. What I can believe is that the person who said this calls themselves "Christian Voice."

This (I arrogantly contend] is the natural offshoot of slave-religion. Even our legal system (as sophisticated as we want to believe it is) contends that children (minors) are 'chattel' and therefore are devoid of civil rights (much like slaves). Maybe some day we can overcome this 'possession' mentality. At least I hope we will.

"What if they took her to the doctor and she died anyway!"
Then at least they actually made the effort to save their child. But as noted, all she needed was insulin. That's it, just insulin. Cheap, simple insulin.

"What if" as they say, is a game for philosophers, "What if angels sat on pinheads?" OTOH I have seen people get 'simple insulin' and die anyway. There are no guarantees.

It's ridiculous the amount of crap our society will put up with from these stick-worshiping freaks.

Hey, I like those 'stick-worshiping freaks'! Many of them are kind, charitable, honorable people who would never intend harm to anyone. Just because they live a different life from you doesn't make them any less worthy of respect. (All you Christians out there, don't take that as meaning I agree with all your beliefs - I just refuse to categorize people on that basis alone.)

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Aside from insulting every Christian including myself on the board (as stick worshiping freaks), you took my statement out of context. The statement “at least she knew she was loved”.

I suggest you go back and reread those posts again. I never defended what the parents did, not once.

So as a stick worshiping freak I think it is ridiculous that you take posts, statements out of contexts to suit your own anit-Christian stance.

The parents were wrong, but unless you have ever been abused you cannot tell me that this is not a different form of abuse from one that comes from hate.

Raist

Being spiritual is one thing, but just expecting for this invisible man to come down from clouds and save your day is just plane simple lazy. Take responsibility to your own hand, create your own future.

And Fox, you took my post all wrong. I was trying to get the point across that she was their responsibility solely. I said in essence she was their property in that they alone were responsible for her. I have not taken up for them at all, I merely said that sending them to jail will accomplish nothing. I also said gave a story that insinuated that the weren't listening to God and that perhaps the medical people were their answer and that someone needs to question their minister. Get your facts straight before you go attacking people. You've got some serious anger issues towards Christians. Perhaps you need to work out those issues before you post anymore. Your anger is clearly coming out and making you very difficult.

originally posted bypost by rizla

I would be nice to have the input of the members of this board who present themselves as Christians and start so many Christian threads.

Ask and ye shall receive.

First of all, I want to say one thing clearly: this is nothing short of a tragedy. My heart goes out to the girl and to her parents. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who are posting such horrible sentiments to the parents are not parents themselves. I am. And I can honestly say that the safety and well-being of my kids is the single most important thing in my life, even more important than my life. You cannot understand this until you have children.

Were the parents 'wrong' in not taking their daughter to a doctor? I'd say yes. I would have (and have!) taken my kids to doctors on the past. But I only do it when I feel my faith is maybe not strong enough, which is a good deal of the time. You see, I believe in faith healing myself. I believe that God gave me a body that is so wondrous, so magnificent in its complexity and ability, that no one is needed to patch up every little malfunction; it heals itself. No doctor can heal me, but they can sometimes make it easier for my body to heal itself.

When she was younger, my girl broke her wrist during Karate class. My first response when she fell was. she probably sprained something. But then I watched her remain still, and when I went to her she was crying. Not a loud complaining cry, but a silent cry that told me it was not a simple sprain or 'boo-boo'. I carefully picked her up in my arms and carried her to our car, and drove her to the hospital. Sure enough, it was fractured. I had no insurance at the time, but I convinced the doctor they referred me to to treat her anyway. She had a cast for a few weeks, and her wrist still has a tendency to 'pop' itself out and into socket at times, but she is whole and well.

A similar incident happened with my son, while I had insurance. The insurance didn't pay. I got him treatment anyway. I also lost my job because the woman who handled the insurance was informed that I was going to 'break her neck' if she didn't fix the problem. They took it as a threat. It was a warning. Bottom line for me: my son is fine.

Why didn't I sit and pray for them? I did! I prayed continuously for both of them, I fasted, I asked friends and even strangers for prayer. All the time I knew that God could have healed either of them instantly. But I did not know if I was righteous enough in His eyes to allow it.

I'm not going to go on a complete religious rampage over this point, because I think I made it clear already. I do not dispute God's ability when I use a doctor. I try to make it easier for God, is the best way I can explain it non-theologically.

But one other point becomes apparent with this explanation. My kids are my kids, until they become adults. They do not belong to any other poster on this or any other board. your opinions of what is and is not child abuse, or what is and is not proper parenting, stop at my doorstep. No one gave me the 'right' to have children, except God Himself. Woe to the man who first tries to force me to raise my children a certain way, for they will not survive.

It is true that children are not 'property', but they are a trust. For that trust to exist, the trustee must have freedom to execute the trust. That means that we must be very cautious when dealing with any prospect of removing children from their home, even regarding 'child abuse'. Should the autopsy (that will surely be performed) indicate physical abuse, as has been brought up, that is a violation of the trust and should be dealt with harshly and quickly. But to condemn these parents without even knowing the full story, to state that they should lose their other children, on the simple basis of a news article? How dare you!

Perhaps they were wrong; that is not for me (or you) to say. Perhaps, but if they actually tried to save this poor girl through prayer, then they surely harbor more pain right now than I hope anyone here ever feels. If that is not sufficient for you, you are a cruel monster who probably needs to be removed from society yourself. I doubt hell itself could harbor more pain.

Excuse me. I have to go say a prayer for them, and for her, and for some of the posters here as well. This could take a few minutes.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
It's ridiculous the amount of crap our society will put up with from these stick-worshiping freaks.

That sums it up perfectly. I can't believe there are still people who believe such fantastic BS.

I wish all the "thats why God gave us brains, to cure ourselves!" crowd would just shut the hell up.

This whole thing was born of complete and inexcusable ignorance, and statements suggesting God has done ANYTHING for mankind just reinforce that ridiculous notion.

Why not go read up on Wikipedia about the men and women who have actually made a difference in everyone's lives, rather than saying "God did it"?

I believe it was Winston Churchill that said something along the lines of: "Christianity has been saved by the strong arms of Science, that it has fought so hard to resist".




[edit on 27-3-2008 by C.C.Benjamin]

This whole thing was born of complete and inexcusable ignorance, and statements suggesting God has done ANYTHING for mankind just reinforce that ridiculous notion.

Looks like someone else gots some anger issues as well. This is a board for DISCUSSING topics. How do you get so pissy debating something like this? If ya gets pissed that easy perhaps ya needs ta back off a bit. No need for da anger.

Here is a collection of various news reports local, national, international regarding this story: www.newstin.com...

What is curiously strange- this that there is not very much reliable information (enormous conflict of opinions/evidence) on the girls family structure according to neighbors and witnesses. There is an enormous investigation underway and as emotionally charged as this event is. There is no telling where this will end.

Until then I will stand by my original post. This story is huge and more will be revealed so I recommend holding judgments.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by dk3000]

reply to post by TheRedneck


Very well said, a star for you, I agree with you about our opinions being our own. For me what they did was wrong for others it might not be. Perhaps my faith is lacking more often than not. I fought with myself over getting my second born his vaccinations, and finally decided to do so. If I had chosen not to though and he became seriously ill or died because of a preventable disease that these shots could have prevented should I be charged with murder, or abuse? What about those who do vaccinate and their child dies or still becomes ill? Maybe we should be forced to accept health care for everyone regardless of their wishes? Maybe people could let others live and stop interfering in their lives unless they are causing purposeful harm to another? I am not sure I see an intended harm from the parents; my personal thought is misguided choice. After all she has not been to a doctor since she was 3 perhaps every other time they prayed she appeared to have improved, no where does it tell us this was the only occasion that she was ever ill.

As you said unless you are a parent there is no way you can understand what it might be like to lose a child. Also unless you have actually lost a child you have no idea how badly it hurts, how often the thoughts and pain comes, how often you wake in the night thinking of that child, and more. When you have lost a child you cannot decide when the thoughts come or go nor can you stop the pain that lingers.

I suspect these parents will forever feel the pain, that they may start to think about other options that existed. I cannot explain everything nor do I ever believe anyone will. But there are times when people become well again that should never have gotten well. Others die for seemingly no cause. Our world is that our own we are trusted with the care of it and each other. We are failing in more ways than one.
For those who say that the parents would have went seeking medical help for themselves I do not see that either. I for one do not go to the doctor for every little thing that is wrong. I have not been to the doctor about anything in years. My child on the other hand sees one regularly.

Raist

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
This whole thing was born of complete and inexcusable ignorance, and statements suggesting God has done ANYTHING for mankind just reinforce that ridiculous notion.

I agree about the ignorance, but what do you mean by "God"? To claim to know there is no higher planes of existence, or no driving forces in the universe that we can't explain, is just as ignorant a notion as the ones you are so dead set against. Organized religion, or mens' attempts to pretend they know the will of "God" and others must follow them is beyond ignorant, but so is claiming to know for sure there is nothing more to things than we can see.

Originally posted by Christian Voice

This whole thing was born of complete and inexcusable ignorance, and statements suggesting God has done ANYTHING for mankind just reinforce that ridiculous notion.

Looks like someone else gots some anger issues as well. This is a board for DISCUSSING topics. How do you get so pissy debating something like this? If ya gets pissed that easy perhaps ya needs ta back off a bit. No need for da anger.

I have no issues with my anger.

Maybe one day, you'll come to realise why abstract belief in a purely hypothetical being is staggeringly ridiculous, and then you too will become as angry as I am that some poor kid was killed by her parents in the name of "Jesus".

Maybe then you wouldn't try to excuse God's complete lack of interest in anything humanity has ever done, and get to accepting that it is the fruit of our own work that will save you when you are in hospital with a life-threatening medical condition, and not wishful thinking (you'd know it as "prayer").

Honestly, southern America is getting as bad as the Middle East for religious issues. This is just fanaticism in a different guise.

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
This whole thing was born of complete and inexcusable ignorance, and statements suggesting God has done ANYTHING for mankind just reinforce that ridiculous notion.

I agree about the ignorance, but what do you mean by "God"? To claim to know there is no higher planes of existence, or no driving forces in the universe that we can't explain, is just as ignorant a notion as the ones you are so dead set against. Organized religion, or mens' attempts to pretend they know the will of "God" and others must follow them is beyond ignorant, but so is claiming to know for sure there is nothing more to things than we can see.

I know nothing of which there is no empirical evidence. As in, there may be a God. There might be hundreds of them. But since we have split the atom, then split what was in the atom, then split that too, we have found nothing that indicates God's work. We have explained the universe plenty, yes, there are a few gaps, but our contemporary understanding of the universe has only been around for 40-ish years, so lets cut ourselves some slack, shall we?

In 6000 years of recorded history, we've ended up with nothing that could scientifically be called "evidence of God".

So please PLEASE don't try to argue the case for God on the grounds that "he might be there". I might grow wings out of my ass and sail butt-first across the grey English skies, but until it actually happens I won't sit around believing it will, as nothing, NOTHING suggests it might!

, and then you too will become as angry as I am that some poor kid was killed by her parents in the name of "Jesus".

You do have anger issues fella. The girl was not killed, more or less killed in the name of Jesus. The girl died, plain and simple. There is alot more to diabetes than just insulin. I had an uncle die from complications due to diabetes. My mother is diabetic and has been in and out of the hospital for the past few months because the doctors cannot control her blood sugar levels. They keep increasing insulin shots, not working. Now her heart is starting to flutter and she has difficulty walking. We don't yet know how far along her diabetes was or if that's all that was wrong with her, whether her kidneys had begun to fail, brain damage or what. If it was just something as simple as an insulin injection and they refused, then shame on them.

reply to post by Raist

And a star for you as well. Your posts are a breath of sanity in a forest of intolerance here. A friend spot as well, with your kind permission.

I for one do not go to the doctor for every little thing that is wrong. I have not been to the doctor about anything in years. My child on the other hand sees one regularly.

You make a very valid point. My children see a doctor as well if it seems they need one, while I tend to go decades between visits. My job requires a physical every two years, but that is really nothing more than submitting to a little groping and rolling my eyes while the doctor tells me how I'm going to die if I don't change my ways. I find it disturbing that doctors who tell me this keep dying off...

I did have one experience a few months ago which would contribute to this thread. Apparently I was bitten twice by a brown recluse spider, once on the shoulder and another on my back. I didn't realize what it was until the classic holes began to develop; I live away from society, so we have plenty of biting things here.

I 'treated' the bites by ignoring them. There was one night, I believe the night after I realized I had been bitten, when I was so hot I could barely stand it. My wife and kids cooled me off with cold damp rags while I laid in bed and joked with them about all the fine treatment. When I realized what it was that had bitten me, it was already pretty advanced, so I figured there was no need to go to a doctor. Was it my faith in God that healed me? I think so, but I can't prove it. All I know is that I survived two bites that left one tiny red spot for a reminder on my back, whereas I have been told by doctors that one bite can be lethal.

Take the story for what it's worth. It won't convince Walking Fox, but maybe someone who is less intolerant will benefit from it.

TheRedneck

[rant]

Doesn't anyone see a parallel between these parents and many of the ATS'rs who want so badly for an alien race to swoop down upon the Earth and save us? Many of us would rather stick our heads in the sand and wish for a magical miracle instead of affecting change ourselves. Change, whether it's in our government or treating an ill child, requires ACTION. So, let's apply this lesson broadly, people. Changing our government, environment and especially ourselves, requires action. I'm not telling anyone to stop believing in what they believe - let's just get our collective heads out of the sand.

[/rant]