Girl died as parents prayed instead of seeking help

They apparently never heard the story of the shipwrecked man:

A man was shipwrecked at sea, with only a lifejacket and called out to the Lord to save him. Over the course of three/four days two helicopters and three ships come to his aid to which he responds: " Thanks for coming for me, but I'm waiting on the Lord". About the fifth/sixth day he dies and goes to heaven, stands before the Throne of God and asks: "Lord, I called out to You - why didn't you help me" ???. The Lord replies: " I sent Two helicopters, and three ships"... Am I to blame for your inattention ???

In short: there's a reason for modern medicine.

reply to post by nickh


this is about the most ignorant, stupid thing i have ever heard of, that little girl was lucky to make it to 11 with idiotic parents like that
so sad, i hope her parents are going to jail

Originally posted by Maxmars
Just out of curiosity, can we assume that they are 'stupid' because they are 'Christians'? Or is it anyone who believes in anything?

No, they're stupid because they put their stupidity on display by sitting on their butts with hands clasped watching their daughter die of something that was completely preventable. That they are adherents of the tent-god is more like icing.

Who died and put you in charge of defining what people do and don't do and why? I don't defend their belief as much as their protection from people who would condemn them based on their belief. I wouldn't have followed their course of action (or inaction as the case may be) but (and again I am assuming here) if they followed the course of action proscribed by their faith, should they be 'judged' based on your lack thereof? That's kind of sad.

They murdered their daughter through neglect. Now I admit, I'm not up on my fringe Christianity, but I'm pretty sure that murder is still a bigger sin there than going to a doctor. Save your kid and save the prayers for forgiveness for going to a doctor.

Again, is this another mandate of the faithless? Should you're refusal to accept their belief be the litmus test of whether they care or not?

Their litmus test is the way they respond to watching their daughter die right in front of them while they do nothing.

I won't argue with you there, but not because I don't follow their belief. Unless the child consciously accepted the potential consequences of her parent's faith she was 'victimized' by it. This however, is a double edged sword - she might not have been able to make that call - but even if she had, would we still want to condone it?

An 11 year old is not capable of making sound medical judgement for themselves, I'm sorry to say. People don't even really begin to realize that htye are not immortal until they reach about 16 or so, even.

This (I arrogantly contend] is the natural offshoot of slave-religion. Even our legal system (as sophisticated as we want to believe it is) contends that children (minors) are 'chattel' and therefore are devoid of civil rights (much like slaves). Maybe some day we can overcome this 'possession' mentality. At least I hope we will.

Which slave religion?

"What if" as they say, is a game for philosophers, "What if angels sat on pinheads?" OTOH I have seen people get 'simple insulin' and die anyway. There are no guarantees.

It's a possibility. It's also a possibility that her car would have been hit by a derelict Russian satellite falling out of the sky en route to the hospital. Anything is, in theory, possible. Making the effort to get her the treatment she needed is a superior choice to sitting around waiting for God to blow magic pixie dust on your sick child.

Hey, I like those 'stick-worshiping freaks'! Many of them are kind, charitable, honorable people who would never intend harm to anyone. Just because they live a different life from you doesn't make them any less worthy of respect. (All you Christians out there, don't take that as meaning I agree with all your beliefs - I just refuse to categorize people on that basis alone.)

I used to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't much bother with even that much these days. I'm sure there are "nice Christians" but they seem mostly scattered around places I don't go. Like Guatemala or something.

this is about the most ignorant, stupid thing i have ever heard of, that little girl was lucky to make it to 11 with idiotic parents like that

And your hate filled rediculous post contributed nothing at all to this thread.

Originally posted by Maxmars
Ultimately people will do as their religious convictions dictate, and until such time as the government (or the 'will of the people') supersedes personal faith-based convictions, this will be a fact of life.
[edit on 27-3-2008 by Maxmars]

Of course you are right on this...But...But...Isn't that terrible?!

When a judge has to take this case into consideration he will see 'these parents' not as silly or even crazy, he will see (and judge) them as 'religious'. Which in my opinion is not fair to people that do not believe in a god or whatever other higher being makes it oke to let your kid(s) die.

Is it?

So...If my child died because I didn't go to the doctor for a treatment I am guilty of neglect or so...And get a sentence fitting this 'crime'. But when I tell the judge that I live my life following the rules of some bible it is a whole other case?!?

Rather silly, isn't it? It's one way or the other...

And in this case I advice the lawyer(s) that will possibly be fighting these parents to make them prove that their god excists! Because...

Well, this isn't exactly related but a new clinical trial for a potential cure for Type 1 Diabetes started.

The treatment cured the disease in all mice who had it.

Human trials are starting!

Mitch

reply to post by kcire


You're absolutely right! It is terrible. I keep wondering what would happen if the case was brought before a Judge of similar religious conviction and then appealed with a judge who was as rabidly anti-faith as some here (or vice versa).

Imagine the case law that might create! It's a sorry case really. All things considered, trying to establish law based on doctrine or abolish doctrine based on civil law ... seriously mind bending. (Unless of course you don't care about the human condition and take a existentialist view in which case this is all crap anyway. All that can matter to the non-believer is that believers are wrong. There is no other consideration.)

Originally posted by MitchMagic
Well, this isn't exactly related but a new clinical trial for a potential cure for Type 1 Diabetes started.

The treatment cured the disease in all mice who had it.

Human trials are starting!

Mitch

Thank God! [/irony]

that is just plain stupidity! yes i am religious and i believe praying is a powerful thing but that is not how praying works. they were hoping for a miracle but it did not come.

Pray as if it is your only hope. Do as if it is all you can do.
Faith without works is dead.

Originally posted by tymertz
that is just plain stupidity! yes i am religious and i believe praying is a powerful thing but that is not how praying works. they were hoping for a miracle but it did not come.

Pray as if it is your only hope. Do as if it is all you can do.
Faith without works is dead.

That is the healthiest Christian attitude regarding prayer - with which I obviously agree - but there are some Christians who vehemently believe otherwise! Their rationale is so contrary to my way of thinking that I can barely muster the respect no to trash it. But what are you going to do - force them to change? I don't think it can be done, not without criminalizing the practice - that way lies madness!

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I appreciate the sentiment of your post, but I think blame-placing is a fallacious exercise, at best. There is always a reason for everything.

That sentiment would be hard for me to argue against.

In this case, it was 100% the parents fault for not taking her to a qualified medical expert. It is that black and white.

Again, agreed, but I thought we weren't placing blame. As you point out so well, it is a slippery slope. May I suggest we instead place responsibility?

This implies not one, but two rational, thinking people willingly decided to go against the best interests of their child. Surely, after a few weeks, they would have reasoned "hmm, magical well-wishing isn't working this time, perhaps we should try something else?"

OK, I'll give you that as well. I have no problem with placing the responsibility for their child's death upon their shoulders.

Let's try a different scenario: let's say the child is sick and her parents take her to the doctor. The doctor prescribes a medicine for her to take. The medicine as it turns out has a side effect which causes her death. Who then, is responsible? Obviously the doctor, for prescribing the medicine, but also the parents! As the final trustee of the child's welfare, they bear final responsibility for anything that happens to their child. But I'm sure you wouldn't advocate their imprisonment, death, or eternal torment in that case, would you?

And before you point out that they would have been led astray by bad medicine, remember that not very long ago, the accepted 'cure' would have been to drain all that 'bad blood' out of them. We are constantly learning new things in the medical field, and I personally believe it is arrogant to assume that doctors have all the answers, even though they are improving.

I'm sure schooling is mandatory in America, so why weren't their severely sub-normal IQ's spotted? Should they not have recieved practical help and guidance for this, help that did not involve a church?

Two fallacies in this: One, the concept that because they do not subscribe to the 'norm', they are in need of societal re-education. Two, they did not go to a church for spiritual guidance, rather they were members of a loosely-knit Bible-study group.

Okay, perhaps they are mentally disabled or of unsound mind. It actually is the place of the community to speak up. If a retared woman lived next door to me and had managed to sire half a dozen kids, I'd want the local social services to know about it.

Oh, please don't move next door to me. I happen to be known as pretty much insane around here. You see, my ideas on right and wrong are not the social norm. So does that mean I should be visited by Social Services?

Cries of civil liberty fall on deaf ears here, I'm afraid. A government should not oppress it's people, but it should definatly act in the people's best interest, even if they don't know or agree what that best interest is. I'm sure the death of a child is in no-one's interest.

That excuse has been used by many great leaders... Mussolini, Hitler, Caesar. Alexander, and more recently George Bush. That's one group I personally don't agree with.

Someone earlier actually quoted the woman as saying that the girl might get resurrected! Honestly, what can you say to that? It's like the poor woman in Saudi Arabia who was given a death sentence because she was a witch!

I see a difference, although I do acknowledge the similarity. Also, are you aware that Christians believe [i[EVERYONE will be resurrected come Judgment Day? Could that have been what the parents were talking about?

Such unreasonably blind faith is never, ever a method of progress. It will never save anyone, it never has and never will.

Oh, but I disagree. Blind faith has saved many people, although the very fact that it is blind faith means that one cannot prove scientifically that it was the faith that did the trick. If that were the case, it wouldn't be faith.

The problem here is that your anger, while justifiable, is as blind as the parents' faith. A girl is dead, and that is terrible. But I don't see it as justification to change the very fabric of our society, to remove parental responsibility and transfer it elsewhere (the state?), to enforce medical procedures on people for 'their own good', to simply remove the freedom of choice from our society. This is where we disagree.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by rizla

1. I'm not discounting faith-healing/prayer, but if it is possible, it is not something just anyone can do. As such, those parents might as well have been using voodoo to treat that child. It was superstitious, indeed, fanatical behavior.

Fanatical, perhaps. But you are wrong in your assumption that not everyone can do it. Everyone can ask God for help, it's just that the stakes are very high and you better be on real good terms with Him. Hmmmmm, perhaps if we passed a law that said you had to demonstrate your ability to faith heal before trying it? (yeah, sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?)

To the people who believe in faith-healing, would you rely on prayer to heal your sick child? Or would you get medical help. I really really hope it would be the latter.

Already answered this one for myself. Back up a couple of posts and take a gander.

I appreciate those parents didn't want their child to die, but their actions led to her death.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

2. As a society, America should cover the health care costs of its children. This is civilized behavior. Some might say Christian behavior. It is possible in Canada, UK, France, Germany, Denmark...the list goes on. Why isn't it possible in the USA?

Oooh, this is a touchy one. It is possible, and it would be a wonderful thing to accomplish. As a matter of fact, during a recent fight with unemployment, a friend passed a leaflet onto me that explained the Alabama Child Care system. Now while I wound up not needing it, apparently for those who are unable to provide insurance for their children, Alabama has set up a voluntary state-run insurance system that is ridiculously low-cost or even free at certain income levels. This is a good thing!

I also have a thread on the very topic of health care that needs your consideration (and support if you like the ideas) here. It's a little more OT there than here, I think.

TheRedneck

another senseless victim of the superstition called "religion".
idiotic, unnecessary and sad

Originally posted by Christian Voice

this is about the most ignorant, stupid thing i have ever heard of, that little girl was lucky to make it to 11 with idiotic parents like that

And your hate filled rediculous post contributed nothing at all to this thread.

Yeah because that isn't 90% of your posts as well...

Sorry Mods, saying that was necessary, considering this guys contributions to ATS heh..

Originally posted by Christian Voice

this is about the most ignorant, stupid thing i have ever heard of, that little girl was lucky to make it to 11 with idiotic parents like that

And your hate filled rediculous post contributed nothing at all to this thread.

Her/his contribution to this thread was her opinion...and I believe a good point was made. I'm sure the parents didnt want the girl to die, but sheesh....you think they would use some common sense. Faith starts becoming a problem when it blindsights you from reality.

Originally posted by Christian Voice

Noone on this thread yet has condoned what they did,

Actually if you read from the start of the thread until the end you will see that many flat out have. I myself, did not. However, the parents ignorance did indeed indirectly kill her.

A girl died, her parents did not kill her. She died of natural causes.

They didn't mean to, but they did indirectly.

It was natural sure, but there was a treatment, and they knew about it.

I think what I am saying is captured best from someone sig on ATS I saw recently:

"and yes, denying children basic knowledge is a form of abuse". I think that might have been Vahall?

Maybe it could have been prevented, maybe not.

Yes it could have.

It's not the governments place to dictate the choices a parent makes.

Never? Where do you draw the line?

Well the Government will do it for you. Ever heard of CPS? Alta Regional, Social Workers, etc?

You can't do certain things to your children with absoulte immunity from the laws of society just because they are your children. It don't work that way. And it would be horrible if it did work that way. I grew up in the fost care world, I know.

[edit on 103131p://27u11 by Lucid Lunacy]

"God" whatever it is. Gave every being in the universe the capacity, through a system of constant perfection(evolution is what scientists call it), to make their own damned choices, using the very tools they as man created to do so. To pray for the responsibility to be lifted from our shoulders when we have the god given ability to take it ourselves is just criminal, and this case is the answer to that.

I hope people understand this soon. It's your problem, not God's. Deal with it.

God does exist. I'll tell you how I know.

When I was a girl, I had a cat that ran away. He was gone for days. I was worried about him and prayed to God that He bring my cat back. That Sunday I went to church and was sitting in a pew when I heard someone mention there was a cat and heard a cat holler. This cat had a very unique meow and I knew from the sound of his voice that it was my kitty. I yelled that it was my cat and rushed up to front of the church. My kitty was trapped underneath a screen behind either the church organ or piano. He wasn't able to get out. I got him up and was so excited that God brought me my kitty. God held him in the church for me.


The parents in this case may not have even known the girl had diabetes. They may have thought she had a virus or something. Diabetes may be treatable, but eventually it shortens your life span, especially juvenile diabetes. This is because it develops when the body is still developing. And the treatment is often painful shots everyday for the rest of your life. These shots can be in the stomach. Can you imagine having needles go in your gut few times a day?

The Bible tells parents to raise their children to serve the Lord.

God knows best with these things. Their faith may be greater than mine. Maybe God just wanted the little girl to not suffer. God's will be done.

Jesus used the Holy Spirit to raise a little girl from the dead. It is within His means to raise her from the dead. Lazarus was dead for days when Jesus rose him from the dead. And Peter used the Holy Spirit to raise the disciple Tabitha from the dead in the book of Acts. And of course Jesus the Lord defeated death and rose from the dead 3 days after he was unmercifully beaten and crucified. If it's not His will, it won't happen though. Sometimes our will isn't the same as God's will. God's will be done.

Originally posted by Jessicamsa
God does exist. I'll tell you how I know.

This isnt the right thread for that discussion

The Bible tells parents to raise their children to serve the Lord.

God knows best with these things. Their faith may be greater than mine. Maybe God just wanted the little girl to not suffer. God's will be done.

The little girl would not had suffered if her parents had used their common sense to take her to a hospital, rather than relying on their faith. It was a preventable death.

Jesus used the Holy Spirit to raise a little girl from the dead.

Yeah well, unfortunantly for this little girl, Jesus wasnt around to do that. So why didnt the idiot parents do the next best thing and save the poor thing. In some cases faith is a dangerous thing to have

Let's face it people: Prayer doesn't fix diabetes. Anyone who thinks it does is off with the faeries.