The Truth About Rapture

Originally posted by PreTribGuy

Originally posted by ben91069

Just remember there are only two spirits.

There is nothing in the text of 2 Thess. 2:6-7 that states (or implies) that the "he" is a spirit. It only says "he". WHO "he" is, is still a mystery to me.

Verse 4 reads this:

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It is mentioned as "he" who sits in the temple.

Read this:

1 Cor 6:19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

It is using a figurative language to show that the false spirit sits in the temple of the body claiming that it is God. When it is taken away, then the soul then sees the truth and can compare the truth with that of lawlessness and vice versa.

True spirits are always "he" in the bible connoting that they are children of God, who is also described as male. The woman is always talking of the outside or the feminine flesh.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy

Originally posted by ben91069

The alter ego of God, Satan, stands in the way of God replacing him for a time so that we see a false prophet speaking of the truth of the law. Then "he" is taken away so that we see God again, which is not bound by laws and rules.

Walla!!!!! Heaven on Earth again.

Although I've never heard that Satan is the one who 'lets' (restrains iniquity) in 2 Thess. 2:7, I find it odd that Paul would would talk about the Anti Christ being revealed in verse 3, then have him removed in verse 7? Especially if the one who 'lets' is restraining (holding back...not allowing) iniquity.

That my friend is a mystery that I have not yet put my finger on. Their is no true love in wrath to my knowledge and their is no vindictiveness inperfection. Two separate forces at this point.

Originally posted by ben91069

So when you say it isn't the Holy Spirit, it leaves only the lying spirit that must be removed to reveal the truth. One can interpret it the other way around saying that it is the true spirit being removed to allow for the false prophet, but you are not and have not said that.

Just remember there are only two spirits.

The one who restrains iniquity is taken away. Unless Satan is now (somehow) a real good angel...the "he" cannot be Satan.

There is some "he" of 2 Thess. 2:7 that is removed...this "he" RESTRAINS (holds back...diminishes...makes less) iniquity. This doesn't "sound" like Satan (father of all lies). The "he" also cannot be the Holy Spirit, for if the Holy Spirit is removed from mankind, all (ALL!) flesh would perish.

There is such a thing (idea) as "The Ridiculous Either Or" (TREO). This "TREO" is prevalent amongst nominal Christianity today (it is part of the apostasy of 2 Thess. 2:3) and it presents itself as common wisdom, or common sense. It is a way (that mankind) is able to explain away the truth of scripture. They present a question and neither answer is palatable to the Saint, so THEY (not the Saint) feel vindicated in their "question".

I don't like the idea that if the Holy Spirit is not removed in 2 Thess., then it MUST BE the lying spirit that is removed. Scripture doesn't support this.

Then one must determine who IS the lying spirit? We know that God doesn't lie - not at all. The question that remains is what is a lie? Having the God given faculty and propensity towards logic and eventually perfected reason - God, what is the criteria of determining whom is lying? Is it doubt manifest or uncertainty?

Originally posted by ben91069

It is using a figurative language to show that the false spirit sits in the temple of the body claiming that it is God.

2 Cor. 6:15-16
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Paul (basically) says that that cannot happen (a false spirit sitting in the temple of God...IE: the body of Christ.)

I can understand what you are driving at, but scripture doesn't support it. False spirit(s) cannot abide within (have fellowship with...remain) in the Saint:

1 Cor 6:15-17
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one (not TWO...not co-habitating...not sharing a room...not even in the same hotel with another) spirit.

Originally posted by Inverted_VaV
Then one must determine who IS the lying spirit? We know that God doesn't lie - not at all. The question that remains is what is a lie? Having the God given faculty and propensity towards logic and eventually perfected reason - God, what is the criteria of determining whom is lying? Is it doubt manifest or uncertainty?

Jesus spoke of this in His parable of the sower:

Matthew 13:1-23

1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Originally posted by ben91069
It is using a figurative language to show that the false spirit sits in the temple of the body claiming that it is God.

Aha! Thou art as NOTHING! However inaccurate my conclusion may be the inevitable truth arises - if thou knowest not then thou hath commited no robbery. There are probably a multitude of self-reinforcing spirits which sit in the temple all of them deceptive in their own way. One may speak wisdom unfathomable, one may speak of incredible force that manifests like a shadow over the mind overcoming all who doubt. The most pleasurable may speak of never ending love and its tears flow without end for ALL. Which is real and which is false? Or are thrice true? So many brothers so few who agree yet all hail to ONE...

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
I don't like the idea that if the Holy Spirit is not removed in 2 Thess., then it MUST BE the lying spirit that is removed. Scripture doesn't support this.

I know it is hard to grasp, but the beginning of that chapter precludes the idea that it is something good moving away to reveal something wicked, for 2 Thess 2:3 already mentions that that comes first (the falling away and apostasy):

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Then the book continues on to talk about the restoration, which reveals the iniquity. This is the removing of that apostasy so that you can "know" the difference. It is an extremely complicated way of saying, I will show you what is evil by making you into the devil and you will not even know that you are the devil, until I take the delusion out of the way, then you will see what spirit it is that is actually dwelling within your temple (the body). Make sense?

....and remember always what it says:

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

reply to post by PreTribGuy



Thanks for that, now I see a little bit better. Thank you

Originally posted by Inverted_VaV
Then one must determine who IS the lying spirit?

Yes, exactly. But how can you tell a lie, until you know the truth, and how can you know the truth when you can only hear the lie? That is the foundation of the mystery of the birth of the spirit of God within us and why it is called "a miracle", because you cannot know it at all, unless of course you are God.

We know that God doesn't lie - not at all. The question that remains is what is a lie? Having the God given faculty and propensity towards logic and eventually perfected reason - God, what is the criteria of determining whom is lying? Is it doubt manifest or uncertainty?

The main criteria is determined (judged) within you, but one spirit uses what is outside as evidence and the other uses what is unseen as evidence. The great news is that the true spirit has control of the other spirit, because it was once a part of it and now must be made submissive. So for a while, the false prophet must contend to show itself the speaking of the true spirit, which is what the bible calls "lying signs and wonders"

These are physical manifestations of the truth. They are not the real truth, but imitations of it. An example would be, man physically traveling to the moon. We know that it is possible to accomplish, whether or not it happened is my best guess for I do not judge the event. What is important is that it is a lying sign and wonder that the flesh, or the woman became a vessel and journeyed to her astral counterpart (the moon) in 1969. The moon is a reflection of the true light which is the sun.

Anyways, I am rambling here.

Originally posted by ben91069

It is an extremely complicated way of saying, I will show you what is evil by making you into the devil and you will not even know that you are the devil, until I take the delusion out of the way, then you will see what spirit it is that is actually dwelling within your temple (the body). Make sense?

Are you saying God sends the Saints a delusion?

There is no delusion sent to the Saints:
2 Thess 2:11-12
And for this cause God shall send them (Not the Saints) strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they (not the Saints) all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
2 Cor. 6:15-16
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Paul (basically) says that that cannot happen (a false spirit sitting in the temple of God...IE: the body of Christ.)

I can understand what you are driving at, but scripture doesn't support it. False spirit(s) cannot abide within (have fellowship with...remain) in the Saint:

1 Cor 6:15-17
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one (not TWO...not co-habitating...not sharing a room...not even in the same hotel with another) spirit.

But you are correct. I am saying the very same thing. The saint, isn't always a saint, however. For a time, the saint must listen to the false prophet. That is the apostasy. Without it, how could one judge or know the difference here?

It goes on to say that they are incompatible with each other, which is also true. One (love) is incompatible with (judgment based on deeds). The higher judgment is to distinguish between these two.

The examples in the scripture you gave are speaking to an audience who obviously have had connections to harlot, whores and the lot. Any person worth their salt has to experience the trenches of "sin" and becoming one with uncleanness in order to see a difference, otherwise they have no standard to gauge anything by. See.

The Harlot in that example is the flesh (woman) who sells her oneness for $$, which is buying and selling or the financial equivalent of placing value judgments on things in order to be one with the spirit (man). It is using that story symbolically to hopefully get you to see beyond it. This way, it remains hidden at first glance.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
Are you saying God sends the Saints a delusion?

For a time of testing, yes. The saints cannot save themselves or do away with the delusion because it has always been in God's hands. The delusion is not outside of you, but inside of you, but ironically you see it as happening outside of you.

reply to post by ben91069


Well the moon certainly seems to have every little detail completely put in its respective place? With the landing an all. My only concern is are their truly no enemies? The reason I mention this is because occasionally I feel like listening to the Rolling Stones song, She's so Cold? Then feel as though I want to self-destruct? Pure imagination of course but truly strange. Its almost as if I have no counterpart then their is no point to anything at all? Purely fabulous speculation yet my sides are girt with machinery of self-dissolution... Reminds me of robo-cop totally autonomous enforcement. Of course I know the fundamental workings of the hands and am growing more knowledgeable regarding the orbit of celestial bodies but really a part of the insanity of this whole thing is I know not what i do! It really looks like a trigger. Dont know then are hurt, oh boy.

Anyhow, there is an incredible love for the heavenly bodies but it is fast deteriorating, for the record I do not believe in the moon landing either but so desperately wish that it was possible. I hope in the very least.

Originally posted by Inverted_VaV
Well the moon certainly seems to have every little detail completely put in its respective place? With the landing an all. My only concern is are their truly no enemies? The reason I mention this is because occasionally I feel like listening to the Rolling Stones song, She's so Cold?

Then feel as though I want to self-destruct? Pure imagination of course but truly strange. Its almost as if I have no counterpart then their is no point to anything at all? Purely fabulous speculation yet my sides are girt with machinery of self-dissolution... Reminds me of robo-cop totally autonomous enforcement.

Of course there are enemies. Life is not static, but dynamic. You either fall into the place of man or woman, but that is the guarantee that you have a counterpart. Which of those you are is something personal to you and each has their own benefits and responsibilities.

Of course I know the fundamental workings of the hands and am growing more knowledgeable regarding the orbit of celestial bodies but really a part of the insanity of this whole thing is I know not what i do! It really looks like a trigger. Dont know then are hurt, oh boy.

Anyhow, there is an incredible love for the heavenly bodies but it is fast deteriorating, for the record I do not believe in the moon landing either but so desperately wish that it was possible. I hope in the very least.

The good news of the Kingdom of Heaven is that when heaven and earth combine, then anything is possible and whether Neil Armstrong went there will be a mute point. Anyone will be able to build a sand castle on the lunar soil. Take that NASA and your budgets.

Originally posted by ben91069
For a time, the saint must listen to the false prophet.

God tempts no one (see James). It is true that God allows men to be blinded to the truth, but never...NOWHERE in scripture does God say He sends his own kids a delusion.

The very idea of this makes EVERY SINGLE moment of my life into a question: "Is this a DELUSION or NOT from my Father?"

God is not the author of confusion. He DOES say, however, that He will send a delusion to UNbelievers, but not His kids.

This is the TREO I spoke of above, and I reject it outright.

For a rebuttal, I offer:
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
God tempts no one (see James). It is true that God allows men to be blinded to the truth, but never...NOWHERE in scripture does God say He sends his own kids a delusion.

Of course not. But, you are either a child of God or a child of Satan for you cannot have two fathers at the same time. Yet, that is why it is called a delusion, because it is not really real. It is a counterfeit of something that is not what it seems to be. That is the trick. You are trying to compare the delusion to the real thing by saying that God cannot send his kids a trick, but by its very nature he certainly can - for it is merely a gimmick and has no meaning other than being superficial. Temptation is part of the trickery because while God cannot tempt, there certainly is temptation. Where does it come from? From the delusion and time of testing. That is why its a mystery because it sounds like one thing and means the other. That is what people cannot get over, because you believe God cannot possible trick a saint with a delusion, otherwise they would not be saints. This limitation is the entire purpose of the delusion, which is why it is called "testing".

The very idea of this makes EVERY SINGLE moment of my life into a question: "Is this a DELUSION or NOT from my Father?"

The delusion is from the Father so that when you see it, you think the Father cannot possibly send it. That is its nature. You are being politely asked to judge whether or not the woman is worthy enough to be married, which means is she ripe to bring forth the creation. God wants to prove to all of the creation that you have it in you by putting you to the test so you won't destroy the creation. It's as simple and complicated as that.

God is not the author of confusion. He DOES say, however, that He will send a delusion to UNbelievers, but not His kids.

It seems you have a quagmire on your hands. Someone has to take claim of the confusion before anything can proceed. Someone must be responsible for it or nothing else can happen:

Rev 8:1
when He had opened the Seventh Seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour'

When the 7th seal is reached, the war in heavens ceases, and there is silence as if waiting for the decision.

This is the TREO I spoke of above, and I reject it outright.

For a rebuttal, I offer:
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

I cannot make you listen to any voice. You either know the voice you listen to or not. It is either familiar or strange.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
God is not the author of confusion. He DOES say, however, that He will send a delusion to UNbelievers, but not His kids.

This is the TREO I spoke of above, and I reject it outright.

As for either or, I would ask you to look at it this way. It is not either/or but both things at the same time. For the unbeliever, it is not a delusion, because they are deceived and think it is as real as can be. The unbeliever thinks that calling it a delusion is crazy because it it exhibits all the attributes of what it should be by what it has told the unbeliever it is. For the unbeliever, God cannot send a delusion, because God would not do that according to them. To them God is limited only to good for if he did anything they did not like, they would judge God. In this way, God could not possibly trick them into anything, for it would make God the author of confusion.

Now, to the believer, they see the delusion and can identify that it is working and they know where it comes from. They see that those under its spell are none the wiser and because of it, they also see that God did not abandon them by leaving them in the delusion. They now know they are true children of God because they he lifted the delusion. In this way God does not send the delusion upon his children, because there is no trick no more. This is what is talked about at the crucifixion of the veil being lifted to see the Holy of Holies.

The iniquity works two ways at the same time so it isn't either/or but both, depending on how you look at it. You cannot enter the Holy of Holies that only the priest could enter or you would die, but there is no proof of that because either anyone attempting it is dead and God consumes them or they are lying, take your pick. The only way to test that is to do it for ones self.

For myself, the logical answer to who is holding back lawlessness, is none other than..... the Prince of Persia. I believe Christ referred to this Spirit as "the Prince of this world".

The rebellion in Heaven has yet to occur, and when it does, it is Michael and other Angels who fight, defeat, and hurl Satan to earth.

When Archangel Gabriel tried to get to Daniel, to give him prophecy, he said he was restrained by the Prince of Persia, for 21 days. Only with the aid of Michael was he able to get through.

That's one powerful spirit to withstand an archangel. Agree?

Isn't Persia in modern day Iran? Probably, that little short dude is the antichrist or false prophet one.



[edit on 1-3-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
God tempts no one (see James). It is true that God allows men to be blinded to the truth, but never...NOWHERE in scripture does God say He sends his own kids a delusion.

Of course not. But, you are either a child of God or a child of Satan for you cannot have two fathers at the same time. Yet, that is why it is called a delusion, because it is not really real. It is a counterfeit of something that is not what it seems to be. That is the trick. You are trying to compare the delusion to the real thing by saying that God cannot send his kids a trick, but by its very nature he certainly can - for it is merely a gimmick and has no meaning other than being superficial. Temptation is part of the trickery because while God cannot tempt, there certainly is temptation. Where does it come from? From the delusion and time of testing. That is why its a mystery because it sounds like one thing and means the other. That is what people cannot get o.099 hoursver, because you believe God cannot possible trick a saint with a delusion, otherwise they would not be saints. This limitation is the entire purpose of the delusion, which is why it is called "testing".

The very idea of this makes EVERY SINGLE moment of my life into a question: "Is this a DELUSION or NOT from my Father?"

The delusion is from the Father so that when you see it, you think the Father cannot possibly send it. That is its nature. You are being politely asked to judge whether or not the woman is worthy enough to be married, which means is she ripe to bring forth the creation. God wants to prove to all of the creation that you have it in you by putting you to the test so you won't destroy the creation. It's as simple and complicated as that.

God is not the author of confusion. He DOES say, however, that He will send a delusion to UNbelievers, but not His kids.

It seems you have a quagmire on your hands. Someone has to take claim of the confusion before anything can proceed. Someone must be responsible for it or nothing else can happen:

Rev 8:1
when He had opened the Seventh Seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour'

When the 7th seal is reached, the war in heavens ceases, and there is silence as if waiting for the decision.

This is the TREO I spoke of above, and I reject it outright.

For a rebuttal, I offer:
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

I cannot make you listen to any voice. You either know the voice you listen to or not. It is either familiar or strange.

Totally familiar yet at the same time their is an element about this that says indefatigable , unconquerable. Certainly he can rule yet the avarice for such a slot is completely selfish and non-considerate. It cares for naught else! Love is just a by-product and becomes secondary if such a role were fulfilled.
Yet however unseemly at the moment two would seem to balance. One compassionate the other emotionally incapable of the same - how truly puzzling. Yet at the same time as one is prone to realize a bright light casts one helluva shadow - HUGE Yet in my weakness I have somehow betrayed its potency or so it would seem

In short I really care about the deaf and blind, lame; dumb and dead and that is monumental in itself. considering I live right next door! Honestly folks i truly have reached the point of demarcation were the only consistently logical thing left to do is love. Yet even in that statement is a grave mystery...I suppose God really want this whole thing to be a testament of faith...

incidentally, if we are to follow scripture a half hour in Heaven is equivalent to 182,621.099 hours earth time? dwtw