The Truth About Rapture

reply to post by ben91069

This is Gnostic. This makes any believer unsure of himself (or herself)....all...the...time. The idea that God tries to "trick his children" is heretical. There is no Biblical support of this completely unorthodox view.

Jesus said,
"Ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you free."

Jesus did NOT say,
"The truth may be disguised. God may (and WILL) send you a delusion...it is up to you ALONE to figure out what is a delusion and what is not."

My fallacious version leaves me to my own devices and I don't like that. I want a God who makes Himself CLEAR and LOUD: a Bible God. A God who grabs me with His words and forces me to choose between what HE says...and what the world says (is truth).

I know that I am wicked. I get that. What I need is a Savior (Jesus) and not a God who throws up to me a bunch of delusions that I (as a wicked man) must decide between/from.

Hypothetical:
If I, as a dad, invited my little girls to wander into the traffic of oncoming cars, I would not only be arrested and convicted, I would rightly so be a very wicked man.

The "God" you describe (who sends delusion to his kids) is elusive (at best) and cruel (at worst).

The God of the Bible is lucid and definitive. I only get "confused" when I try to reason my way out of Jesus' words.

God is NOT the author of confusion. The "God" that sends delusion is not my Father.

Originally posted by Inverted_VaV
incidentally, if we are to follow scripture a half hour in Heaven is equivalent to 182,621.099 hours earth time?

dwtw

The delusion has a predetermined time. It is short by eternal standards but seemingly a long time coming by earthly standards.

That time is based on 40, but it has been shortened for the sake of the elect or rather it has been corrected to account for the elect.

Have you heard of the teaching that one receives 40 lashes minus one? It is telling you something.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
This is Gnostic. This makes any believer unsure of himself (or herself)....all...the...time. The idea that God tries to "trick his children" is heretical. There is no Biblical support of this completely unorthodox view.

Me thinks you skipped these pages:

Genesis 22
1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

................

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together,
7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.
10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

The very existence of Christianity hinges on the Jews who have Abraham as the father of their entire nation, who was "tested", "tricked", "sent a strong delusion" as well as poor Isaac who was about to be gutted and sacrificed by his own father just because God asked him to do it.

Now, do you really think that the concept of God "tricking his children" is unscriptural when I have demonstrated that the Bible illustrates God did just that.

Do you understand what you are reading and hearing in the pulpits or are you just hearing the parts you want to hear?

God sets up a test to judge the nations, nothing more. It is a conspiracy and planned all along. To say that he wont put his children to the test is unscriptural for he did not spare his own son.

[edit on 1-3-2008 by ben91069]

Originally posted by Inverted_VaV


Totally familiar yet at the same time their is an element about this that says indefatigable , unconquerable. Certainly he can rule yet the avarice for such a slot is completely selfish and non-considerate. It cares for naught else! Love is just a by-product and becomes secondary if such a role were fulfilled.
Yet however unseemly at the moment two would seem to balance. One compassionate the other emotionally incapable of the same - how truly puzzling. Yet at the same time as one is prone to realize a bright light casts one helluva shadow - HUGE

Yet in my weakness I have somehow betrayed its potency or so it would seem

In short I really care about the deaf and blind, lame; dumb and dead and that is monumental in itself.

considering I live right next door!

Honestly folks i truly have reached the point of demarcation were the only consistently logical thing left to do is love. Yet even in that statement is a grave mystery...I suppose God really want this whole thing to be a testament of faith...

incidentally, if we are to follow scripture a half hour in Heaven is equivalent to 182,621.099 hours earth time?

dwtw

I really have no idea what you are saying (or asking) here. There is a saying, "speak to your audience". (Hmmm...I'm not quite sure that THAT is a saying, maybe I just made that up? Not sure.)

Anyways...

"speak to your audience" means to speak in a clear way. I needed to "look up" the word used in your first sentence in your post, but not the incorrect use of the word "their".

We are all allowed some latitude on bad speeling. What doesn't work for me (and your audience) is for one to be clearly NOT clear on what you say...

"indefatigable" is not a normal word for anyone to use. "Tireless" works just fine. I don't deny that the word is correct, but just that...well...I need to have things explained/said to me like a small child: Be blunt...be clear. Don't (grrr....) OBFUSCATE.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


Inverted Vav is speaking in tongues in a way in a colorful language. It isn't for everyone and I understand that.

Unless it is directed directly at you, then it is just for anyone to interpret. You either get it or you don't. No harm. No foul.

Simplicity is good, yet there definitely is a level of complexity that one must master to understand spiritual things. Since there is no how-to book on that topic, the only school is you, God, and listening to the hearts of others.

Dear friends,

Their is only one rule and that is to Walk by Faith. If you walk by faith then your are in complete submission to the Will of the Father because you have no idea where you are going, get me? That is the entire point! At least that is how I see it. We live in the world of effects so the entire goal is rational emancipation. If you aren't willing to be a victim of the world in which we live then what is your true worth?

Here is an interesting declaration I found the other day while meditating on truth:

"We cannot acknowledge allegiance to any human government; neither can we oppose any such government, by a resort of physical force. We recognize but one King and Lawgiver, one Judge and Ruler of mankind. We are bound by the laws of a kingdom which is not of this world; the subjects of which are forbidden to fight; in which Mercy and Truth are met together, and Righteousness and Peace have kissed each other; which has no state lines, no national partitions, no geographical boundaries; in which there is no distinction or rank, or division of caste, or inequality of sex; the officers of which are Peace, its exactors Righteousness, its walls Salvation, and its gates Praise; and which is destined to break in pieces and consume all other kingdoms.

Our country is the world, our countrymen are all mankind. We love the land of our nativity, only as we love all other lands. The interests, rights, and liberties of American citizens are no more dear to us than are those of the whole human race. Hence, we can allow no appeal to patriotism, to revenge any national insult or injury. The Prince of Peace, under whose stainless banner we rally, came not to destroy, but to save, even the worst of enemies. He has left us an example, that we should follow his steps. “God commandeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

We conceive that if a nation has no right to defend itself against foreign enemies, or to punish its invaders, no individual possesses that right in his own case. The unit cannot be of greater importance than the aggregate. If one man may take life, to obtain or defend his rights, the same license must necessarily be granted to communities, states, and nations. If he may use a dagger or a pistol, they may employ cannon, bomb-shells, land and naval forces. The means of self-preservation must be in proportion to the magnitude of interests at stake, and the number of lives exposed to destruction. But if a rapacious and blood-thirsty soldiery, thronging these shores from abroad, with intent to commit rapine and destroy life, may not be resisted by the people or magistracy, then ought no resistance to be offered to domestic troublers of the public peace, or of private security. No obligation can rest upon Americans to regard foreigners as more sacred in their persons than themselves, or to give them a monopoly of wrong-doing with impunity.

The dogma that all the governments of the world are approvingly ordained of God, and that the powers that be in the United States, in Russia, in Turkey, are in accordance with His will, is not less absurd than impious. It makes the impartial Author of human freedom and equality, unequal and tyrannical. It cannot be affirmed that the powers that be, in any nation, are actuated by the spirit, or guided by the example of Christ, in the treatment of enemies; therefore, they cannot be agreeable to the will of God; and, therefore, their overthrow, by a spiritual regeneration of their subjects, is inevitable."

Declaration of Sentiments


Thy will will be done.

Originally posted by ben91069

2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

Then God SAID...

There is no delusion here (or trick). Abraham obeyed God's command (not a request, but a command). Abraham heard directly from God about what (specifically) to do.

To refuse God's COMMAND would have been sinful for Abraham.

IOW: Refusing God's SPECIFIC command is sinful...not a delusion.

reply to post by PreTribGuy



But, it is a trick because it defies the logic of God. We are commanded to not kill, yet God says to kill what you love most.

The opposite of what God wants is propositioned as being reality up until the very last moment.

If God came to you in a dream, voices in your head, however you define him and said "Kill your son" would you do it, or would you say it is a trick.

This scripture apparently says it was no joke, Abraham interpreted it as what God wanted and was about to do the thing which God says not to do.


[edit on 1-3-2008 by ben91069]

Ben your wisdom astounds me on a regular basis - and if your wit gets any drier I'm going to choke on my own tongue. I love it!!

Originally posted by ben91069
But, it is a trick because it defies the logic of God. We are commanded to not kill, yet God says to kill what you love most.

I had something like this on my mind last night! It's something upon which I frequently contemplate.

Hypothetical question:

IF GOD allowed us to believe a lie...any lie, whether collectively (the strong delusion) or personally (such as Saul's evil spirit and other lying spirits sent by GOD)...but ONLY because in the end it would bring about total blessing for all of us rather than telling the truth straight up and settling for a very small portion of the whole human race, chosen for their so-called ability to know 'truth,' while sending the remainder back as empty souls - no different than the raw-soul stuff we all started out with...in such a scenario, WOULD THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS?

If a temporary 'fooling' or 'charade' was used as a means to guarantee us all permanently enlightened and given back the deed to our soul...
WOULD it make GOD a hero (albeit a dragon who deceives) or would it make the whole world too mad to like him at all?

The opposite of what God wants is propositioned as being reality up until the very last moment.

And/Or:

At first we learn the 'rules' so that they become habit. Once our soul is converted and our character literally transformed, then GOD must somehow 'wean' us from 'rules' because they are milk and will poison us when we're all 'grown up.'

Since GOD is infinitely EFFICIENT, he might use this opportunity to also increase our dependence upon his leading us along the dark and narrow ledge of eternity that we cannot negotiate alone!

It is surely a sign of advancing steps toward cementing absolute trust in GOD when suddenly he asks you to do something that last week you'd go to hell for! So to speak.

This could apply to literally any aspect of any soul's life.

The end-result of such training is a soul which depends first and foremost, each and every time, on what GOD IS, knowing GOD is the GOD OF NOW.
Not the god of what we might have believed yesterday or at lunch time or even what he might have led us to believe about Him, 2 hours ago. We must walk by faith, as mentioned above - and not by sight. Always in the 'now' (line by line and precept by precept!)

To do that we must learn the trapeze act wearing a blindfold until we are flawlessly working in harmony with GOD!

If God came to you in a dream, voices in your head, however you define him and said "Kill your son" would you do it, or would you say it is a trick.

I know you didn't ask me this, Ben, but I will answer anyway.
If such a thing happened in the present time, I will freely admit that I'd almost positively, without a doubt, obey GOD's instructions. WHATEVER it was...I would trust HIM and do it.

But this is new - ten years ago I was suspicious of anything and everything outside myself but at that time I also wouldn't have been able to believe that GOD would ask me to do ANYTHING that I didn't THINK was 'right' so I'd probably have told myself it was trick - but a trick of my own mind upon itself!

The truth is that it's been a very crazy span of years in my life - almost 10 - to get me to the point of KNOWING beyond the realm of belief that GOD IS - which must be in order to truthfully obey to the same degree as Abraham was prepared to do.

Really, Abraham had his own major role in the great work of perfecting the human soul/mind - just like Jesus and even Joseph and Moses...Abraham is very much a savior of the entire world!

This scripture apparently says it was no joke, Abraham interpreted it as what God wanted and was about to do the thing which God says not to do.

Truly I have never doubted that story. It is a very significant event but most of the time it is not understood as to its true significance. It is not just about Abraham TRUSTING GOD...it is about GOD planting the seed of belief in man that GOD ALWAYS will do what he vowed/promised to do. We must certainly be patient and 'wait on the LORD,' as King David writes, because HE will NOT forsake us!


GOD told Abraham that he knew Abraham had not hesitated to give his son back to the one from which he'd came
(remember Isaac was an impossibility, born to a 100 year old mother and even older dad!)
and BECAUSE of that...GOD was voluntarily vowing a major unconditional blessing on ALL the FAMILIES of Earth on behalf of Abraham's trust in GOD.

What GOD promised that day is irrespective of religion or ethnicity or citizenship...it has NOTHING to do with being Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.
EVERYTHING that promise rested on was in the past LONG LONG AGO and the past is fixed...what's done is done and that is true as soon as it is done!!

There is nothing that can ever nullify the words that GOD said to Abraham on that fateful day - AND EVERYONE is going to get a piece of the 'pie' and the pieces will all be equally 'sized.'

That is NOT negotiable. When GOD says 'ALL' he means 100%!

And so even as far back as the bronze Age 6,000 years ago...the rapture of traditional mainstream Christian mythology was already RULED OUT just based on the fact GOD said ALL to Abraham.


[edit on 3/2/2008 by queenannie38]

The lesson Jesus is trying to convey in the following passage, IMO, is relevant to the questionable idea of 'rapture' (as being something happening to a selective portion only):

Luke 14:7-15:

• And he gave teaching in the form of a story to the guests who came to the feast, when he saw how they took the best seats; saying to them,
  
• When you get a request to come to a feast, do not take the best seat, for a more important man than you may be coming,
  
• And then the giver of the feast will come to you and say, Give your place to this man; and you, with shame, will have to take the lowest seat.
  
• But when you come, go and take the lowest seat, so that when the giver of the feast comes, he may say to you, Friend, come up higher; and then you will have honor in the eyes of all the others who are there.
  
• For every man who gives himself a high place will be put down, but he who takes a low place will be lifted up.
  
• And he said to the master of the house, When you give a feast, do not send for your friends and your brothers and your family or your neighbors who have wealth, for they may give a feast for you, and so you will get a reward.
  
• But when you give a feast, send for the poor and the blind and those who are broken in body:
  
• And you will have a blessing, because they will not be able to give you any payment, and you will get your reward when the upright come back from the dead.
  
• And, hearing these words, one of those who were at table with him said to him, Happy is the man who will be a guest in the kingdom of God.

Any self-seeking of reward, whatsoever, is going to directly backfire!
Jesus says this over and over, in many different ways!

Rapture is the idea of receiving a reward based on our own imagination/expectations rather than trusting GOD to reward us for loving others the SAME as GOD loves us all.

Which means REGARDLESS.
God loves us all REGARDLESS.

We absolutely MUST do the same.

The whole rapture theology quite neatly tells us to do/think the exact opposite of EVERYTHING Jesus told us NOT TO DO/THINK!

If anyone makes an attempt to keep his life, it will be taken from him, but if anyone gives up his life, he will keep it.
Luke 17:33

THAT is simple and direct!

We are not in Egypt, anymore, Toto - stop living in de Nile!!

Originally posted by ben91069
reply to post by PreTribGuy

 

But, it is a trick because it defies the logic of God. We are commanded to not kill, yet God says to kill what you love most.

The opposite of what God wants is propositioned as being reality up until the very last moment.

If God came to you in a dream, voices in your head, however you define him and said "Kill your son" would you do it, or would you say it is a trick.

This scripture apparently says it was no joke, Abraham interpreted it as what God wanted and was about to do the thing which God says not to do.


[edit on 1-3-2008 by ben91069]

Again, it is no "trick". God spoke clearly to Abraham. It was a command given by God directly to Abraham. The Law (10 commandments) wasn't given for another 430 years.

There was no delusion sent to Abraham. God was clear about what He wanted Abraham to do.

If a 'god' came to me (now) in a "voice", I would have every right to ignore this voice, for Hebrews 1:1-2 says we are to listen to what Jesus said.

Originally posted by queenannie38

The whole rapture theology quite neatly tells us to do/think the exact opposite of EVERYTHING Jesus told us NOT TO DO/THINK!

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Hi Annie, your post was awesome once again. You bring up a good point that has crossed my mind more than once:

Originally posted by queenannie38
Hypothetical question:

IF GOD allowed us to believe a lie...any lie, whether collectively (the strong delusion) or personally (such as Saul's evil spirit and other lying spirits sent by GOD)...but ONLY because in the end it would bring about total blessing for all of us rather than telling the truth straight up and settling for a very small portion of the whole human race, chosen for their so-called ability to know 'truth,' while sending the remainder back as empty souls - no different than the raw-soul stuff we all started out with...in such a scenario, WOULD THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS?

Do the ends justify the means. No.

Romans 3:5-8
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
7 But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?
8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

As pertaining to God, even the destruction does not justify the means, and the destruction comes through the hand of God. So what is God asking us? God is asking us to love him, in spite of his sending the destruction.

That is how he proves to us and hisself that we are his children. If we see the destruction, we know who sends it and we know of the judgment, yet we still love him. When we judge the world, we judge the God who created it.

Truly I have never doubted that story. It is a very significant event but most of the time it is not understood as to its true significance. It is not just about Abraham TRUSTING GOD...it is about GOD planting the seed of belief in man that GOD ALWAYS will do what he vowed/promised to do. We must certainly be patient and 'wait on the LORD,' as King David writes, because HE will NOT forsake us!

GOD told Abraham that he knew Abraham had not hesitated to give his son back to the one from which he'd came
(remember Isaac was an impossibility, born to a 100 year old mother and even older dad!)
and BECAUSE of that...GOD was voluntarily vowing a major unconditional blessing on ALL the FAMILIES of Earth on behalf of Abraham's trust in GOD.

And not only is it a promise to Abraham but from the perspective of Isaac, it is a promise to his seed - that is the seed of Abraham - us. We, who are about to die by the father are promised at the last moment that the sacrifice will be replace by the sacrificial lamb as Abraham said to his son in the story. There is no mention of Isaac struggling to escape the wrath when his father was about to plunge the knife into him.

It's truly an amazing story.

[edit on 2-3-2008 by ben91069]

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
Again, it is no "trick". God spoke clearly to Abraham. It was a command given by God directly to Abraham. The Law (10 commandments) wasn't given for another 430 years.

There was no delusion sent to Abraham. God was clear about what He wanted Abraham to do.

If a 'god' came to me (now) in a "voice", I would have every right to ignore this voice, for Hebrews 1:1-2 says we are to listen to what Jesus said.

Wow, I can't believe you say Abraham was not tricked but listened to a command, then turn around and say if the same thing happened to you, you would ignore that voice and listen to Jesus.

Do you not understand Jesus and God are one and the same spirit?

You presume Jesus would not tell you to do something that you believe is wrong, yet God tells Abraham to do so and you would ignore that as something misguided, yet at the same time for Abraham it was a command.

So what am I to say about you?

I will let the world judge you my friend.

Originally posted by ben91069
Hi Annie, your post was awesome once again.

Thank you, Ben!

Do the ends justify the means. No.

Hmmm...thank you for your input.

Do you recall the when Dr. Spock died on Star Trek? It was a classic retelling of the sacrifice of the lion (christ)!
And he told Kirk (i think it was) that
THE NEEDS OF THE MANY OUTWEIGH THE NEEDS OF THE ONE.

Do you think that is a valid and beneficial philosophy?

As pertaining to God, even the destruction does not justify the means, and the destruction comes through the hand of God. So what is God asking us? God is asking us to love him, in spite of his sending the destruction.

Right! Just like the trees must burn down every so often so that the meadow may be reborn. For the trees it is destruction but for the wildflowers it is the start of life!

That is how he proves to us and hisself that we are his children. If we see the destruction, we know who sends it and we know of the judgment, yet we still love him. When we judge the world, we judge the God who created it.

EXACTLY!
You said that with precision!

And not only is it a promise to Abraham but from the perspective of Isaac, it is a promise to his seed - that is the seed of Abraham - us. We, who are about to die by the father are promised at the last moment that the sacrifice will be replace by the sacrificial lamb as Abraham said to his son in the story. There is no mention of Isaac struggling to escape the wrath when his father was about to plunge the knife into him.

RIGHT! That to me, says even more about Abraham's faithfulness. He was promised the impossible...he waited without doubt...and when the promise was fulfilled, it became a SACRED duty for Abraham to instill that same faith in his son...

It's truly an amazing story.

Indeed. Abraham must have had one of the fullest lives of his day - adventure even unto his old age - but above all he is remembered as 'GOD'S friend!'

Personally, I can not imagine any possible reward that could be greater! Just another way of expressing the ultimate beauty of Nirvana - happiness and contentment which surely could NEVER fade or grow old!

Originally posted by queenannie38
Do you recall the when Dr. Spock died on Star Trek? It was a classic retelling of the sacrifice of the lion (christ)!
And he told Kirk (i think it was) that
THE NEEDS OF THE MANY OUTWEIGH THE NEEDS OF THE ONE.

Do you think that is a valid and beneficial philosophy?

In a worldy view, it is beneficial - that is to sacrifice one person for the benefit of the many. That Star Trek was a looooooooong time ago, huh?

But back to your question, it is an interesting paradox which relates to the entire gospel story. Jesus died the physical death and it was said through the scripture that one man had to die and be the scapegoat for the sins of the many, yet the many still die. It should have ended death right then and there if the sacrifice was truly valid, yet God is timeless, not linear.

It also reminds me of "Saving Private Ryan" where the needs to complete the mission outweighed the needs of anyone in the squad, but what if the mission is to save just one man? That was the story of Captain John Miller's men and how they gave their lives to save Pvt. Ryan. As their numbers began to dwindle and they lost their brothers, they began to question the logic of "many dying for one man". It was a role reversal.

Like that movie, we are now in a reversal of roles. For the "one man" to live (Christ), the many (we) have to die to sin to resurrect him.

This is the mystery of the the body of Christ being one body with many parts, and Christ is the head.

This is our task today, to die to sin to resurrect the whole body, one without the other is useless.

Originally posted by ben91069

Wow, I can't believe you say Abraham was not tricked but listened to a command, then turn around and say if the same thing happened to you, you would ignore that voice and listen to Jesus

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Hebrews 1:1-2 says that God spoke to unto the fathers and the prophets in time past (Abraham being one.) Today, however, God has spoken to us through His son, Jesus. I am under no requirement to believe every spirit, but to test them. Any spirit that comes and says to me now (in 2008) "go offer your Son/Daughter/pet goat as a sacrifice" is a lying spirit and can be safely ignored.

I believe we have a reliable Bible and this Bible contains the words of life.

I have never (ever) heard such an unorthodox view of scripture that implies that God tricks his kids. (Fools them). Chastise? Yes. Trick them? Never.

I do not, however, doubt that God sends a strong delusion to those who have pleasure in unrighteousness. (Romans 1, and Jude, 2 Peter 2). Yes, God allowed a spirit to vex King Saul, etc. These were not the elect, though.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Before I had children (I have 3 now), I never quite understood Paul's requirement in 1 Tim. 3:4-5 (about a Bishop needing to have children), but now I get it better. There are insights into "how God the Father works" that I could never have understood while only having a wife. (Sorry for the sidenote, but it is part of my point).

God is a Father. And AS a Father, he desires good things for his kids...not evil.

God has promised to spare us from his wrath in Malachi 3:16-17
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Ben, I apologize if I'm misunderstanding your view, but I just don't understand the idea of "God tricking his kids (the elect)". This is quite novel and I've never heard of this before. It isn't orthodox and I am not aware of any writings in Church history that support this novel view, nor even in most of the (now apostate) synagogues today.

Originally posted by TruthSeekers
I'm afraid of what will happen to all the good people who are misled about the Rapture. Because there will not be a Rapture and we are all going through tribulation together.

...but back to the original post.

No sane man/woman desires to go through the tribulation. Even God, Himself, stated so:
Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

The tribulation will be far worse than anything that has ever happened upon the earth. "No rapture" teachers will probably get their prophecy fulfilled.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I thought this would be a great article to share with everyone regarding 2 Thessalonians 2 regarding the falling away:

Part I

You hear it everywhere. There will be a great "falling away" in these last days. People will turn away from God and from the Word and the whole world will become apostate. After this great apostasy, then the Antichrist will be unleashed on the world and it's curtains for everyone.

Preachers, prophecy teachers, Pastors and End Times novelists are all trumpeting the same warning: People will abandon God and his truth and will turn to idols and false teaching and all manner of lawlessness and sin.

But is this true? Is this Biblical and where does this doom and gloom doctrine come from? It arises from 2 Thess 2:3,

Visit source for full article

Moderator Note:
Posting work written by others

post NO MORE THAN 15% of the original (or three paragraphs, whichever is least)

[edit on 2-3-2008 by dbates]

[edit on 2-3-2008 by defcon365]

reply to post by defcon365


Isn't it interesting that much of the division which has arisen in regard to scripture among believers, often times comes down to "one word," and what that one word perhaps means? You see this often.

The article you provided was a good read, and in times past I have also marked that distinction in regards to II Thessalonians 2:1 and the wording as being two separate events, rolled into one statement.

As for revival, I am uncertain about that, I guess if you do keep up with numbers, then you would be more aware of that fact, than one who has no knowledge of such numbers. Although, in the back of my mind, lingers II Timothy 3:1-5, especially verse 5 : Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:..."

If we understand that the power comes via the cross of Christ, I Corinthians 1:18, and that is where our faith is to be focused, Christ and Him crucified, then it seems II Timothy 3:5 is reflecting a falling away from faith in Christ's Atonement, where the power of God flows from. And if that is correct, then can II Timothy 3:1-5 be used in conjunction with II Thessalonians 2:3 and this Falling Away, since II Tim 3:1-5 deals with the last days? Perhaps so.