The Truth About Rapture

Originally posted by AshleyD
What is this saying? I'm sure everyone can agree that both the pretribulation rapture and post tribulation rapture doctrine have scriptural support, correct?

Nope.
I looked and looked and the more I looked the less I found it.
It is all theological cut-n-paste.



As far as I'm concerned, 'Rapture' is a song by Blondie from back in the 80's!

Ashley,
You know I am pretribber but please clarrify..Are you saying there is little evidence for midtrib rapture? You mentioned pre/post. The concept of post trib rapture doesn't make a lot of sense on many levels but Christ returns and reigns on earth for 1000 years..who is raptured and to where in the posttrib view?

Stirring the pot,
BP

reply to post by BlackProjects


Since you are a pre-t like me then I know you realize post-t's use Matthew 24 which talks about 'the gathering of the elect' after 'those days' (the tribulation) as their support. Just because 'support' is found, though, doesn't mean their explanation of it is correct. Of course you and I realize it's not the 'twinkling of an eye' transformation but the final gathering. It isn't the rapture but it is a gathering. My words 'scriptural support' means the concept is there but post-t's don't take the entire context into consideration of the NT and pretribulation rapture.

Also: Their connection of the 'last trump' and 'at the sound of the trumpet.' So, there is Scriptural support but it is taken out of context and they ignore the trumpet blasts in their symbolism of Jewish feasts.

In other words, we could technically find 'scriptural support' for things like there not being an afterlife in Ecclesiastes, not an eternal Hell in Psalms, or that Jesus was not God. The same applies for the concept of a post tribulation rapture. However, finding 'scriptural support' doesn't mean a thing once it becomes clear what they just did was take something extremely out of context.

Originally posted by holidaystar1

Please also remember that the tares are not only "the non-believers".
There are many a wolf in sheeps clothing.
For He said, many will say Lord, Lord, and be cast away even though they assumed they were casting out demons and doing works in His name, He said He never knew them.
Put on the full Armor of God, and stand against the fiery darts of the enemy.
Many will be decieved, and the time will be shortened for the elects sake, less no flesh be saved.
When He returns every knee will bow, every eye will see, and "all" will be transformed in an instant.
The last will be first and the first will be last, but "all" will see His Glory.

Sorry for paraphrasing, but thats what I get.

Thank you for pointing that out and you're absolutely correct-to a certain extent...It's all in how He (Yahshua) defines a "true" believer. For example, I feel like I am a true believer, but am I in His eyes? Only He knows the depths of the heart of man. Sometimes, I think the tares reside inside of us, all of us, believer or not. We all have some wheat and tares in us and then at the time of the Harvest, the reapers come and take out the tares or all that causes evil and whatever we are left with....is the rest of the story What do you think?

Also, here's something to think about off topic (a little), what if and I mean a BIG pondering "what of" the name that people are doing these works in is the wrong name? Could that be a reason He doesn't know them? Does anyone ever think He is important enough to call Him by His real true Yahweh given name? I mean think about it, I can't even pronounce The leader of Iran's name-Albendejaud (sp??) or spell it ha! But nonetheless, his name isn't translated? Why? When our Savior is soooo much more important than any person here on earth?!
Thoughts anyone? AshleyD? Queenannie?

reply to post by AshleyD


Thanks AshleyD I know my friend is exactly where her heart was, because Yahshua was her treasure for sure! He's my treasure too and obviously yours, so no matter what time, or when or whether I'm the last person left on this earth, I will wait for Him and continue to seek Him all of my days!

I have a little question I thought about, it's a 'what if' question but here goes; what if you believe because you've been taught, that you'll be raptured and you don't get raptured. Do you know how you might feel? It worries me to think of the possibility of this relatively new belief going around that may not happen, I just wonder if that could be the great falling away that Paul spoke about in 2nd Thess?

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
I have a little question I thought about, it's a 'what if' question but here goes; what if you believe because you've been taught, that you'll be raptured and you don't get raptured. Do you know how you might feel?

The thing is, I am prepared either way. Although I hope for and believe in the rapture, if it does not happen then we have all the warning signs to look for. Although there will be little chance of making it out of the tribulation alive as a believer, we will be able to see the signs we have entered the tribulation. Once we see these signs through the fulfillment of prophecy, the signing of the seven year covenant, the rise of the Antichrist, and the seals being broken, that is the time to prepare to go into hiding as that is the point it will be obvious the pretribulation rapture will not happen. That is my plan: to go on with God either way. I won't be 'crushed' or feel rejected or anything like that. I would say it was my own fault for misunderstanding something.

It worries me to think of the possibility of this relatively new belief going around that may not happen, I just wonder if that could be the great falling away that Paul spoke about in 2nd Thess?

This might help. THIS is a post I made a couple of days ago explaining why I believe in the rapture, off site links for a more thorough explanation, and to answer common criticisms regarding the pretrib view. It actually isn't a 'new belief' but one that has been around outside of the Bible since at least the 4th century A.D. And yes, it could be the falling away but I have my own suspicions on what that is but don't want to derail the thread by explaining my speculation. lol

Originally posted by AshleyD
This might help. THIS is a post I made a couple of days ago explaining why I believe in the rapture

Very nice. I'd agree that there are more pro then anti rapture hints. Actually the only real anti-rapture verses would be in II Thessalonians 2:1-4 as you mentioned. Still, that could be taken to mean a number of things. I hope for this, but do remain a bit of a skeptic for the very reasons that TruthSeekers mentioned. If it doesn't happen and you were completely sold on it it could be a serious blow to your faith and trust. So, hope for the best and plan for the worse I suppose.

The rapture isn't even a biblical subject. it is not in the bible and has almost no support in other texts of the time. it is a creation of evangelists many years after jesus death, much like the bible you have all come to know.

AshleyD, this is yours from your post (which I'm still reading) I just wanted to stop here and ask you something about this:

II Thessalonians 2:5-8. It cannot start until we're gone. Cross reference this with other passages that state church-age Christians have the Holy Spirit sealed inside of us as 'a guarantee of our inheritance.' This is a promise tribulation-age Christians do not have. So, when the Holy Spirit goes (as shown by the 'it' neutral gender in the original Greek), we go as well. Church age Christians are believed to be the restrainer indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

/

What cannot start until we're gone? I just want to be sure that we are on the same page. Are you saying that the tribulation cannot start until we're gone?

All believers in Yahshua Messiah have the promise of the Holy Spirit seal, all and all. Not one has been left out. That is a promise Yahshua made that cannot be argued or debated. Even the Apostles and Disciples were sealed and they are taken away, in a sense. You said the church is the restrainer, so how can the church AND the Holy Spirit both be restaining?

This is how I've grown in understanding 2 Thess; The Thessalonians were previously 'worried' because they had thought for whatever reason, by letter, or vision etc that Yahshua had come and basically they missed the boat. Paul writes again to them and first tells them not to be shaken in mind or troubled that that day is at hand. He then says let no MAN deceive you by ANY means-for the record, Paul is speaking sealed by the Holy Spirit to us today as well as those 2000 or so years ago, to them and all believers in between. So he's telling us not to be troubled and not to be deceived because there must be a falling away first and subsequently that man of sin revealed BEFORE we are gathered together unto Yahshua. I can't misconstrue this even if I forced myself AshleyD. We are all going to be here together scattered, but nonetheless, together, during the time that the man of sin is revealed once and for all, the one who exalts himself above all that is called God etc etc..

Also, the Holy Spirit, through Paul, makes us stop in the midst of this important letter and remember, (verse 5) He say's; remember ye not, that when I was with you, I told you these things? Now (Matt 24:25) Again, Yahshua's own red writing is calling to our rememberence something VERY important, something that has to do with being deceived, by false Christ's and false prophet's, shewing great signs and 'wonders'. Now back to (2Thess 2:9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. The restrainer, or the one withholding the lawless one is Yahweh. Refer to (Matt 24:36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Yahweh has an appointed time see Daniel also, and only Yahweh gives the 'Go', so it is not the church, it is not the believers, or Michael the archangel, not a prophet, not anyone or anything, it is our Father who is holding back someone from being revealed, the work is here, but the worker is withheld until our Father in Heaven allows his identity to be revealed by the world.

I don't think bad of people who firmly believe in the rapture, like I said before, I'm in the middle still until I find some place IN the WORD that confirms this belief. Also, the way I see it is that when we give our lives to Yahshua, we're dead to this world already, in fact I die daily in Him, like Pauls says. I just love Paul, but really I love the greater One in Paul

(PS) thank you too for answering my what if questions. I just pray during this time that we will all continue to grow in the faith of Him and not let go no matter what happens, or doesn't happen, so well said AshleyD!!

I'll continue reading your very long, but very informative post on this, and I pray that we can continue to discuss it so beautifully

reply to post by dbates


I do agree. There are some people I know (and bless their hearts I am not criticizing them) rely on the rapture so much they think getting a college education or saving for their retirement is pointless. Although I am looking forward to such an event, Jesus did tell us to stay busy until He returns- whether it be pretribulation or posttribulation. Yes, I am 99% sure there will be a pretribulation rapture. If not, then we can plan on having a very eventful seven years to countdown. It's those who revolve their life around it are the ones that make me worry for them. Oh, and I did get a better (or at least pretribulation rapture supporting) interpretation of the passage in Thessalonians. If you would like to know what it is, just ask and I will reply here.

reply to post by Elisha4Yah


This is what I've read about it. Church age believers have 'the Holy Spirit sealed inside of us as a guarantee of our inheritance.' Due to the parables immediately following Jesus' Olivette Discourse in Matthew and several other references sprinkled throughout the NT (especially Revelation), it appears the tribulation saints do not have such a guarantee. In other words, they can lose it by taking the mark or 'losing their oil' (the Holy Spirit is often symbolized using oil) 'falling asleep' or 'not keeping their robes clean.' All spiritual analogies of falling away from the faith during the tribulation.

This is what I have thought about the rapture. Its plausable within scripure but does not mean true. The scripture in revelation that they say talk about rapture says to come up, I believe. I think what we got to remember is that Jesus didnt teach rapture in the gospels, so even if there was a rapture its not that important. I think what we got to teach so hearty about is faith, and works, and the word of God. Not rapture that is not really all that important. If it were so important to teach, wouldnt Jesus tot it????????????

My take on Mat 24:30-31. A gathering definately needs to occur as at this point in time Christ returns to setup 1000 reign on Earth. It could be of supernatural means similar to rapture but this will be believers that have come believe in Christ in spite of persecution by the antichrist. Remember at this time also the Jews have been hearing and believing the Two witnesses. But compared to evidence supporting pretrib view I think this "gathering" is apples and oranges compared to the rapture.

Ashley I think you made a good pt that some people are too engrossed with the rapture.

There a gathering of some type but never did it say they would go to heaven. Plus I believe the gathering in revelations talks about a gathering with jesus to fight the evil one.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by Elisha4Yah

 

This is what I've read about it. Church age believers have 'the Holy Spirit sealed inside of us as a guarantee of our inheritance.' Due to the parables immediately following Jesus' Olivette Discourse in Matthew and several other references sprinkled throughout the NT (especially Revelation), it appears the tribulation saints do not have such a guarantee. In other words, they can lose it by taking the mark or 'losing their oil' (the Holy Spirit is often symbolized using oil) 'falling asleep' or 'not keeping their robes clean.' All spiritual analogies of falling away from the faith during the tribulation.

OK now we have gone from the talking about rapture to the Holy Spirit. This, I'm going to admit, I don't like. Because I am terrified of God and Yahshua's words echo in my mind always..... (Matt 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

So although I DON'T like the debate here, I will say you are absolutely 100% wrong in what you've stated above, and you need to know this as do others who read. We humans, have no control over the Holy Spirit at all. It is a gift, a promise, to believers accross the span of time and the universe, be they raptured, persecuted, killed, sick, no matter what the case!! Man cannot keep promises, but Yahweh is not a man, He keeps His promises. The lamp oil is the WORD, it is what remains in my right hand and in my forehead (this is the seal), it is also what sit's at God's right hand, until all His enemies are under His feet (Yahshua's/The Word made flesh) We also wash our robes in the blood of the Lamb (again the Word made flesh) We are not cleansed except through Yahshua, we drink in the blood and eat the bread, that is how we get through tribulation, it is our faith and trust in the Word that keeps us going all the way to the finish line!

Once He bestows the blessing of the seal of the Holy Spirit, there is no "loss of faith" Now granted I can say I feel His Holy presence within me more on some days than others, but once He pours out His spirit, that's it! You are His and no-one and no-thing can take you out of His hand.

And why would "the tribulation saints" be less worthy of such a blessing?? I don't understand? Who are we to say who will be first or last in the Kingdom? Did not Yahshua say something to the disciples along these lines during the last supper? I'm wondering if you and I are living on the same soil. I hear and see and witness persecution upon believers every single day, yes every day. Every day a believer is dying or beheaded for their testimony in Yahshua. I'm not asking you to test this truth by no means, but surely you, as a believer, must be aware of how you yourself are not at liberty to witness, pray, or speak openly and freely about the Gospel in "public places" otherwise I might ask you why you are here, you're here for the same reason I am, because here, I can speak openly to people about Yahshua, but even sometimes here, I'm hated and the Word is butchered or crucified, right here on ATS!

We as believers who continue until the very end, no matter whether we sleep in Him or are awake, when He returns, our promise is that we will be with Him, through FAITH. And faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Heb 11:1)

Point is, there is little scripture backing the rapture belief, and that's "OK" but there is NO scripture backing the loss/gain of the Holy Spirit, once you are sealed, you're sealed, period. So you can fall away or rebel during 'this stage' during the "patience of the saints stage" but you don't fall away from the Holy Spirit, once He seals you, it's IMPOSSIBLE.

reply to post by slymattb


am i the only one who doesn't see how this makes sense?
by this i mean the "gathering with jesus to fight the evil one" part
jesus + fighting doesn't compute.

the teachings of jesus seem to point towards pacifism, not fighting....

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the teachings of jesus seem to point towards pacifism, not fighting....

Yes, as Jesus' followers we're to be passive. All the fighting is left up to God. Don't mistake Jesus commandments to love others as a sign that God will not judge the wicked.

From Luke 4

16And he(Jesus) stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."[e]

20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Read the passage that Jesus read from here. It's from Isaiah 61.

...to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,

Notice how Jesus stopped reading after he said, "the year of the LORD's favor". That's because he was only fulfilling the favor portion of that verse at the time. The "day of vengeance of our God" is still yet to come in the future and it will come. There are many, many other prophecies that point to God's judgement. Revelation 19:13 describes Jesus clothes as being soaked with the blood of his enemies.

But I digress. Does anyone else see Revelation in a nutshell in Isaiah 61? Jesus comes and executes vengance, then he restores things and makes them grand and great again. Don't see any mention of the Rapture here, but of course this is focused more on what happens after Jesus returns.


[edit on 28-2-2008 by dbates]

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
there is NO scripture backing the loss/gain of the Holy Spirit, once you are sealed, you're sealed, period. So you can fall away or rebel during 'this stage' during the "patience of the saints stage" but you don't fall away from the Holy Spirit, once He seals you, it's IMPOSSIBLE.

I see what you are saying so let me show you scriptural support for what I am saying here. Here are the scriptures we both accept:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

So we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance. Now, again, I'm not saying this is 100% correct (as I have admitted numerous times) but look at this:

And now you know what is holding him [The Antichrist] back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

Due to the neutral gender of this restrainer, many Bible scholars believe it is the Holy Spirit. Not saying it is without any doubt the Holy Spirit but it seem that is what it is implying. Also, this is not saying the Holy Spirit is going to completely be removed from the earth because an omnipresent being cannot be removed from any place.

Prophecy scholars cross reference this 'removal' with the above passage about having the Holy Spirit sealed inside of us. So, when this 'it' is taken out of the way, they believe this is also the removal of church age believers who are promised to never have the Holy Spirit taken from them. Because God cannot contradict or take away His promise to us, they believe when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, we go too in the rapture. Then the 'Day of the Lord' (an idiom for the tribulation as well as the second coming) can commence and the Antichrist can rise.

Now we will switch over to where it mentions someone can lose their salvation. This is in direct contrast to the above. We know God does not contradict Himself so something must be going on. If you pay close attention to the context, all three cases imply salvation during the tribulation. Here are a few examples:

"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

"No, they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves." "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!' "But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Now, although some believe this refers to the rapture, I do not believe so. This seems to imply those during the tribulation because this passage immediately follows Jesus' Olivette Discourse concerning the tribulation. Because 'oil' is often used to represent the Holy Spirit, this refers to some who may have started out with the Holy Spirit but later 'feel asleep' and 'ran out of oil.'

So this doesn't become too tedious, read this article that explains The Parable of the Ten Virgins.

Next:

"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

In this context, we are in the tribulation and Jesus warns to keep your clothes on. An analogy similar to not falling asleep. Because saints are often described in metaphor as wearing robes, this basically means you 'lost your salvation.' Here is how the author describes it from the above link:

During the Church Age the Holy Spirit is sealed within believers as a guarantee of our inheritance. But no such guarantee is mentioned for Tribulation believers. In fact Rev. 16:15 specifically warns them to stay awake and maintain their righteousness, symbolized by keeping their clothes with them. (Clothing is often used to represent righteousness, as in Isaiah 61:10). Rev. 16:15 implies that Tribulation believers are responsible for remaining steadfast in their faith to avoid losing their salvation. Matt. 25:8 agrees, telling us that all 10 virgins had oil in their lamps at the beginning, but the five foolish ones didn't have enough to carry them through.

Then one more example before I stop:

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath... There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Famously, we know that anyone who accepts the mark of the beast will be eternally lost. Above we are told that we are responsible for not taking the mark. In other passages we are told it is better to lose this life instead of our salvation. So this is indeed an example of a Christian 'losing their inheritance' during the tribulation.

And with that I will stop. You're a doll, Elisha, but you have no idea how often I get accused of being a false prophet, committing blasphemy, blatantly lying, etc. Or how many times I have been told something I am saying is 'absolutely 100% wrong' and 'NOWHERE in the Bible.' Then I have to go back through and spend an hour on a scripture hunt to defend my honor. It does get tiring sometimes. lol Much love to you and it is your right to disagree with any of the above information.

[edit on 2/28/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD

Since you brought up the subject of the 10 Virgins. So you understand this to be a discussion of tribulation era Christians? What is the banquet that they attend? Is it the Millenium Kingdom? Heaven?

This has got to be one of the most confusing parables. All seem to be aware that the bridegroom is coming, and they all get up to light their lamps and go out to meet him. Why can't they all make it if they are aware? I think you're correct in that this doesn't seem to indicate the Rapture as we understand it. I don't expect there would be a voice form Heaven that says "Rapture in 5 min. so get ready".

One other thing I never quite "got" out of this was how the 5 wise virgins couldn't share their oil. Faith is one thing that you get more of the more you share it. So it couldn't be that they lacked faith could it? If it's the Holy Spirit, then why would some have more than others since that isn't something you buy as the story describes. I guess the only real implication is as you said. There is a deadline for being added to Chirst's church.

As my mom always says, "Once God raises the curtain and reveals himself, the show is over". At that point I don't expect you would have any sort of free will left. Sort of makes you grateful for the opportunity we currently have. After all, during the final judgement, there will be no doubters or disbelievers. Yes, apparently we all have a deadline for recieving Christ. For some, it's death, for others it's Christ's appearance.

Given that, wouldn't this parable then indicate that there will not be a rapture as we know it? The 10 virgins initially go out to meet the bridegroom. They all are in the same state at first and something prompts them to get ready. This is before the midnight cry goes out. Perahaps this means that all the virgins see a sign such as the appearance of the Antichrist and they know that the kingdom is near. They get ready for the rapture, but the rapture never happens. Instead they all get tired in waiting. Then later, the final sign or cry goes out that "this" is really it.

I better stop. Discussing this whole thing only brings up more questions and I really need to get back to work. If only I had the free time that I used to have.

...So how do 5 of the virgins loose their place if salvation is secure? Does getting shut out of the banquet mean they are doomed forever? Stay tuned for more details of this story....

(Okay, I'm really going now.)

reply to post by dbates


Hello Dbates. I used to believe the rapture was going to be what I referred to as "The Marine Rapture." In other words: The few. The proud. The true Christians. All ten of them were virgins and all ten of them had oil. But five had been so caught up in the world that they were 'left behind.' Only the virgins 'on fire for God' were taken. But if you read the article I link to above, it will give you a whole new perspective and I tend to agree with his opinion now over my past interpretation. He explains it in a precise way that would take me 2 pages to explain.

The way I see it about the virgins not being able to share their oil is this (and I am sure you are aware of the passages): We are told to work out our own salvation. It is all about a personal relationship with God. No one else can save you and Jesus even told the Jews of His day that they should not consider themselves special simply for being 'the children of Abraham.' As they say, God has no grandchildren. So, if the 5 virgins could not share their oil, it is because of this. Those other five virgins are responsible for their own oil. If they got caught up in the world, took the mark, or accepted the beast's system out of fear for their own life, then the 'oil' of others cannot save them.

I really suggest reading the article. If the author is correct in his assumption that due to this passage immediately following Jesus' warning about the tribulation, then this would mean the virgins are those who come to God during the tribulation. Remember the parable of the seeds. We are told some hear and accept the Gospel but later lose it for various reasons because the seed does not 'take root.' The same thing is possibly going on here.

Hopefully I remotely understood your questions correctly!