The Truth About Rapture

reply to post by Elisha4Yah


Oh, Hon. I am so sorry to hear about your friend. Although she is in a better place, loss of a loved one is still painful. But please don't ever think you are not 'good enough' for a gift from God. You are good enough because He has declared you good enough through Jesus.

Enoch and Elijah both received the blessing of a personal rapture and they proceeded the timing of Jesus' sanctification of all of us. And of course we are told in the New Testament by Jesus Himself that church age Christians are even 'greater' than the very best of the Old Testament prophets. So, if they went, it is highly possibly we could go to. That includes you. They were deemed righteous through works, we were deemed righteous through God's promise and declaration.

Originally posted by managerie


o Genesis 6, Dan 12:12 - Noah seven days in the ark before the wrath of God came, 40 days of wrath, then lifted up. (much like the 7 years plus 40 days at end of tribulation).


Jesus said “as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man” (Mt 24:37)
Jesus specifically alludes to a comparison to the days of Noah (7 days).

o God’s way is to remove the Wicked, not the Righteous (Prov 2:21-22, 10:30)

I agree with most of what you say...excellent post with all the figures, etc, by the way. My disagreement, in love, comes from "God's way is to remove the Wicked, not the Righteous (Prov 2:21-22,10:30) Hope I quoted that right.

Anyway, my point is yes, God does remove the wicked, but he also removed Noah into protection. Hence we have "the barn" when reading further posts below.

I_R

reply to post by TruthSeekers


The rapture idea is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION to this very simple commandment:

LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF

If it means more to you to go to heaven and leave others behind...then you cannot possibly say you love your neighbors as yourself. If you did...you'd stay voluntarily.

The whole rapture ideology is based on SELFISHNESS rather than SELFLESSNESS.

It doesn't make sense according to what Jesus taught and would make him out to be a hypocrite.

I AIN'T going for that. Jesus is TRUTH. GOD is love.
Rapture is 'save-my-own-ass-who-cares-about-my-neighbor....besides-that-i-left-him-my bible-AND-my-entire-collection-of-'LEFT BEHIND'-books.

I'd rather be a rotten egg than a selfish 'christian.' I'll stay till the fat lady sings - who knows...that might well be ME!

:how
C-YA.
Wouldn't wanna be YA!



---------------
SERIOUSLY
think about it HARD


??HOW?? does rapture fit in with this:
Greater love has no man than this, that a man gives up his life for his friends.

(john 15:13)

THINK ABOUT IT
MUCH


[edit on 2/25/2008 by queenannie38]

reply to post by queenannie38


Annie you know I adore you to death but that argument is so logically fallacious I don't know what else to say. That's like saying Christians must be wrong about Heaven because if they loved their fellow man they would happily join anyone in Hell.

Yes, I love my fellow man and would die for my fellow human beings. I also risk coming off as a total lunatic for the sake of my fellow man. They might think I'm a nut if but if I truly believe what I believe, and I do, then it is worth dying for them or coming across as a Bible thumper in their eyes. My rapture/afterlife strategy isn't to say, "See ya!" My strategy is to say, "Come with me where I go and I'm willing to do anything in my power and love to see to it that you do."

Edit to add: Yes, we are to love our neighbor as ourself. But the only commandment above that one is to put God first. If He calls me home, I'm ready to go even with as much as I love my family.

[edit on 2/24/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by queenannie38
The rapture idea is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION to this very simple commandment:

LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF

Sorry, I don't see the connection your making here between Mark 12:31 and the rapture...

If it means more to you to go to heaven and leave others behind...then you cannot possibly say you love your neighbors as yourself. If you did...you'd stay voluntarily.

The whole rapture ideology is based on SELFISHNESS rather than SELFLESSNESS.

I think that is being very judgmental of Christian believers. You are not my judge, that's for sure!

Secondly, this is what Jesus Christ declared prophetically. Who are you to deny Him of His plan?

Are you saying that a Christian cannot believe in rapture of the church and not love their neighbors? Again, your statement seems quite selfish!

www.biblegateway.com...:1-5;&version=49;

It doesn't make sense according to what Jesus taught and would make him out to be a hypocrite.

Can you back this up with scripture?

I AIN'T going for that. Jesus is TRUTH. GOD is love.
Rapture is 'save-my-own-ass-who-cares-about-my-neighbor....besides-that-i-left-him-my bible-AND-my-entire-collection-of-'LEFT BEHIND'-books.

That is your OPINION and once again, very judgmental on other believers in Christ.

I'd rather be a rotten egg than a selfish 'christian.' I'll stay till the fat lady sings - who knows...that might well be ME!

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Annie you know I adore you to death but that argument is so logically fallacious I don't know what else to say.

How is it logically flawed that it should not be considered?

That's like saying Christians must be wrong about Heaven because if they loved their fellow man they would happily join anyone in Hell.
[edit on 2/24/2008 by AshleyD]

Did not Christ leave his abode in heavens to become a man?

What is death, Ashley, but the separation between man and God. Now tell me what place death occurs and whom came to that same place then you will see what Annie means. To follow Christ means to leave the heavens and come to hell. Revelations tells us God will walk with mankind in the New Earth. There are no reasons to leave and abandon the earth to admonish the world when the believer is also a part of the world. Don't be a hypocrite to think that you deserve to be raptured any more than anyone else. That is fallacy, because it is illogical for God to judge that you are more worthy to be taken out of harms way than anyone else. The bible speaks of rapture, yes, but it is not what you expect it to be.

reply to post by ben91069


It doesn't fit scripture for the very reasons I gave. Basically saying the rapture cannot happen nor should we look forward to it because it would mean we do not love our fellow man.

That's like saying we cannot die or go to Heaven because we love our fellow man and must be with them always. And as much as we are to love our fellow man, we still should love God more. If the rapture happens we can't say, "But God! As much as I love you and want to be with you I love my husband, friends, and family more!"

It also shows a tremendous lack of faith. Do I really think the world is going to fall apart if I'm not here? Of course not! Jesus himself promised there would be others who came in the tribulation: the two witnesses, ministering angels, and the sealed 144,000 missionaries. It's not going to be a 'black out.' Like we are told in the Old Testament regarding the saints awaiting the coming of the Messiah: They were not to morn when they were called home but to 'pass the torch' onto others who would keep preaching.

Originally posted by ben91069

There are no reasons to leave and abandon the earth to admonish the world when the believer is also a part of the world.

John 15:19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

That is fallacy, because it is illogical for God to judge that you are more worthy to be taken out of harms way than anyone else.

Do you have the mind of God? Is that your decision to make??? Are you the author of His Divine plan???

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS

The bible speaks of rapture, yes, but it is not what you expect it to be.

Please, elaborate on that with some scripture!

Originally posted by AshleyD
It doesn't fit scripture for the very reasons I gave. Basically saying the rapture cannot happen nor should we look forward to it because it would mean we do not love our fellow man.

I didn't say a rapture does not happen. I said it will not happen like you think it will. Obviously, there is scripture support a "catching away", but to interpret that as meaning physically removed from harms way denies scripture. God did not spare his son even death, nor will he spare anyone until all authority be removed.

Now hear this in love Ashley, for you are a wise girl capable of understanding:

Romans Ch2
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Do you plan to escape the judgment (by rapture)as Paul asks, while you live essentially the way of the rest of the world - in sin?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

..and you treasure up a day of wrath by treasuring up a day of wrath because of the hardness of your heart - deeming by logic that God is going to destroy the world against his promise given to Noah that he would no longer destroy the world through a flood in word or deed (see my link in the signature of the rainbow sign of God for the time is near dear one)

John 17:15
(Jesus praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil."

Jesus believes it should be the Fathers will that we remain in the world rather than be removed from it.

John 17:20
Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. (That is you and me.)

Jesus asks you to believe you won't be taken out of the world in a rapture.

Do not say that a physical rapture is unscriptural. It is. This is the meaning of Jesus returning on the clouds, for clouds are symbolic of hiding the light and obscurity. There are other scripture supporting this, but I do not need to find every one of them. It's there for you to research if you will. When God asks us to "seek first the Kingdom of Heaven" he is asking us to define and find Heaven within ourselves. The judgment day cometh, but that does not mean that the rapture, judgment, and new day is wrath.

That's like saying we cannot die or go to Heaven because we love our fellow man and must be with them always. And as much as we are to love our fellow man, we still should love God more. If the rapture happens we can't say, "But God! As much as I love you and want to be with you I love my husband, friends, and family more!"

The purpose of the judgment is not to divide, but to unify. Loving your neighbor is completing the law of loving God, for God loves all his creation. You are writing your argument from the perspective that by choosing to "love thy neighbor" you are somehow excluding God, because you are conditioned to think God wants to destroy us. That is a wicked thought.

It also shows a tremendous lack of faith. Do I really think the world is going to fall apart if I'm not here? Of course not! Jesus himself promised there would be others who came in the tribulation: the two witnesses, ministering angels, and the sealed 144,000 missionaries. It's not going to be a 'black out.'

I am having a difficult time understanding your reasoning behind this part Ash. You are supposing that you are not concerned with the world if you depart in a rapture, yet that really has nothing to do with it. You say that after a rapture, the world still has a chance with two witnesses, angels, and the sons of God. Do you really understand who the two witnesses are, who are the angels, and who the 144,000 are? Also, you are presuming a time of testing with a second chance. Is that true of your beliefs or not?

Like we are told in the Old Testament regarding the saints awaiting the coming of the Messiah: They were not to morn when they were called home but to 'pass the torch' onto others who would keep preaching.

Yes, but you are not understanding the purpose of the Messiah nor how the elect are to live as the angels. Politely, I would say that going home and living through others will be done inwardly and not outwardly. The word will become the living word in the temples of those you presume will be "left behind".

[edit on 24-2-2008 by ben91069]

Originally posted by defcon365
Do you have the mind of God? Is that your decision to make??? Are you the author of His Divine plan???

Yes.

To add:

I didn't want to leave you hanging with just an answer, but an explanation. The reason you would disbelieve anyone claiming to have the mind of God is because you find fault and attribute that to man. You cannot connect the two things and thus you will always question man's equality to God. True man is the creation of God and when you find it, you become a part of the creator and the creator is a part of you.

My decisions are just, because I judge righteously. I do not wish to destroy the world nor rapture any flesh.

[edit on 24-2-2008 by ben91069]

Originally posted by ben91069
I didn't say a rapture does not happen.

I understood that- I was talking about the logic of the rapture not happening because it would mean we don't love others. That is what I was saying is not scriptural.

Obviously, there is scripture support a "catching away", but to interpret that as meaning physically removed from harms way denies scripture. God did not spare his son even death, nor will he spare anyone until all authority be removed.

That is kind of comparing apples and oranges in my opinion. Jesus died to save us from sin and eternal death. No, He didn't have to do it but He did. He went willingly so it is not a matter of being spared or not. Also, the Greek word used for 'out of' and 'from' specifically refers to a complete removal. BUT, in the defense of your view there are other words that say they will simply be protected. However, we believe that is the 144,000 sealed missionaries and other tribulation saints.

1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

I am not judging anyone. As I've said before: Christians are all going together or staying here together regardless of what we believe about the rapture. What happens is how it will happen. There's no point in making someone feel bad about not seeing your view when it is such a speculative topic.

Do you plan to escape the judgment (by rapture)as Paul asks, while you live essentially the way of the rest of the world - in sin?

This gets into a theological argument that would bring us off topic. In a nut shell, we are saved through grace and considered spotless. What Jesus did at the cross was total completion.



[edit on 2/24/2008 by AshleyD]

This is an enigmatic and longstanding argument, which can be easily understood through the spirit of Christ, which is prophecy.

I sort of understand what you are saying, and albeit it is hard to put faith in anothers belief over the internet, because frankly you do not actually know them like you do yourself. You try to trust what one says and test the spirits of their words in accordance to the sword of God.

Anyway, the best way to describe the rapture is both a spiritual and physical chance that happens over the course of time that can be called an overlap between the physical and spiritual states.

In this way, as to not be confused, it explains in many ways that all interpretations are true, depending on the timing of the events and how one perceives God.

There is a rapture that is both spiritual and physical, and it depends on where one is in the relationship with God. Respectfully, I hope you know about these things, but I cannot judge whether you do or not.

Originally posted by ben91069

The reason you would disbelieve anyone claiming to have the mind of God is because you find fault and attribute that to man.

I simply disbelieve you! Your previous statements lack Biblical truth and are your own personal views.

You cannot connect the two things and thus you will always question man's equality to God.

Because I do not believe man is equal to God... Post some scripture stating that clearly illustrates we are equal to God...

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I do not wish to destroy the world nor rapture any flesh.

:w: :w: :w:

Because you can't!

Originally posted by defcon365

Originally posted by ben91069

The reason you would disbelieve anyone claiming to have the mind of God is because you find fault and attribute that to man.

I simply disbelieve you! Your previous statements lack Biblical truth and are your own personal views.

Thats fine if you want to believe that, but I am speaking that God loves us all . Do you have some other method to atone for sin?

You cannot connect the two things and thus you will always question man's equality to God.

Because I do not believe man is equal to God... Post some scripture stating that clearly illustrates we are equal to God...

Psalms 82
1 God astandeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the apersons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do ajustice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they awalk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High.
7 But ye shall adie like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, ajudge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Because you can't!

I do not sin any more. I have been made whole.

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by defcon365
Do you have the mind of God? Is that your decision to make??? Are you the author of His Divine plan???

Yes.

AMEN, BEN!

1 Corinthians 2:6-16
But still we have wisdom for those who are complete in knowledge, though not the wisdom of this world, and not of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nothing:
But we give the news of the secret wisdom of God, which he had kept in store before the world came into existence, for our glory;
Of which not one of the rulers of this world had knowledge: for if they had, they would not have put the Lord of glory on the cross:
But as it says in the holy Writings, Things which the eye saw not, and which had not come to the ears or into the heart of man, such things as God has made ready for those who have love for him.
But God has given us the revelation of these things through his Spirit, for the Spirit makes search into all things, even the deep things of God.
For who has knowledge of the things of a man but the spirit of the man which is in him? in the same way, no one has knowledge of the things of God but the Spirit of God.
But we have not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which comes from God, so that we may have knowledge of the things which are freely given to us by God.
And these are the things which we say, not in the language of man's wisdom, but in words given to us by the Spirit, judging the things of the spirit by the help of the Spirit.
For the natural man is not able to take in the things of the Spirit of God: for they seem foolish to him, and he is not able to have knowledge of them, because such knowledge comes only through the Spirit.
But he who has the Spirit, though judging all things, is himself judged by no one.
For who has knowledge of the mind of the Lord, so as to be his teacher? But we have the mind of Christ.

Originally posted by ben91069

Thats fine if you want to believe that, but I am speaking that God loves us all . Do you have some other method to atone for sin?

Read ALL of my previous posts in this thread or ANY OTHER thread, I never stated anything to the effect that God does not love us or that there is ANY other way of salvation than Jesus Christ! Please do not add words to my posts!!! And please quote me correctly...

The verse in Psalms 82:6 does not equate or illustrate that we are equal to God.

John 13:16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

Luke 8:24 They came to Jesus and woke Him up, saying, " Master, Master, we are perishing!" And He got up and rebuked the wind and the surging waves, and they stopped, and it became calm.

I wonder why they called Jesus Christ MASTER if they were Gods or equal as YOU have stated...

Again, this topic is about the RAPTURE and yet all I see is misdirection, misquotes, and adding words to the questions I initially asked of you concerning it...

For someone claiming to have the mind of God, you sure seem to be having an off day :shk:

Originally posted by queenannie38
AMEN, BEN!

Praise God. The modern translations of Amen are; damn straight, word up, totally, I s**t you not, feel me, know what I'm saying, etc.

See you in paradise.

Originally posted by defcon365

Originally posted by queenannie38
The rapture idea is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION to this very simple commandment:

LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF

Sorry, I don't see the connection your making here between Mark 12:31 and the rapture...

And truly, it is beyond my means to give you understanding. Only GOD can make you see the concept from which my words come. He showed me....he's shown many others...and one day he will show you.

I think that is being very judgmental of Christian believers.

Very astute of you to notice that.

You are not my judge, that's for sure!

I never said I was - I don't even know you!

Secondly, this is what Jesus Christ declared prophetically. Who are you to deny Him of His plan?

Of course not...but as far as what he declared...in general comprehension is lacking for most bible-readers. Especially those who go somewhere to hear the bible explained to them rather than just enjoy the privilege of the private spiritual tutor that we all are promised, it we seek and desire such.

Psalms 118:8

Are you saying that a Christian cannot believe in rapture of the church and not love their neighbors? Again, your statement seems quite selfish!

How is MY statement selfish? I'm not the one thinking of saving my ass from bad times while leaving others behind to endure.

Think of it THIS WAY:
Say that GOD or Jesus came to you and said:

'I've got good news and bad news.
The good news is that tomorrow is the rapture and you 'IN.' You'll be coming with me!
The bad news is that no one else in your family made the cut....they have to stay.
Sorry.'

Now this is purely hypothetical - I don't know you OR your loved ones or anything about what is in your hearts toward the LORD. BUT JUST PRETEND for the sake of argument that this actually takes place.

WHAT WOULD YOU FEEL?
AND SAY?
AND DO?

WILL YOU ACTUALLY ANSWER? I hope you do. In fact, I double-dog dare ya!

It doesn't make sense according to what Jesus taught and would make him out to be a hypocrite.

Can you back this up with scripture?

But let the greatest among you be your servant. And whoever makes himself high will be made low, and whoever makes himself low will be made high.
Matthew 23:11-12

But they said nothing: because they had had an argument between themselves on the way, about who was the greatest. And seating himself, he made the twelve come to him; and he said to them, If any man has the desire to be first, he will be last of all and servant of all.
Mark 9:34-35

That is your OPINION and once again, very judgmental on other believers in Christ.

So be it. You don't know how I came to this place in my thoughts and there is no need to bore anyone with the details but it is NOT an opinion but rather the result of a literal personal EXPERIENCE GOD gave me which made it crystal clear.

Believing in Christ and emulating Christ are two different things.
Just like TALK is different than WALK.

Show first then Tell (when asked)
OR
Tell and tell and later on MAYBE show...or maybe not...

I'd rather be a rotten egg than a selfish 'christian.' I'll stay till the fat lady sings - who knows...that might well be ME!

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Those things have already come to pass and are now history.

Originally posted by defcon365

Originally posted by ben91069

Thats fine if you want to believe that, but I am speaking that God loves us all . Do you have some other method to atone for sin?

Read ALL of my previous posts in this thread or ANY OTHER thread, I never stated anything to the effect that God does not love us or that there is ANY other way of salvation than Jesus Christ! Please do not add words to my posts!!! And please quote me correctly...

Fair enough. I will be the devils advocate.

The verse in Psalms 82:6 does not equate or illustrate that we are equal to God.

John 13:16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

Luke 8:24 They came to Jesus and woke Him up, saying, " Master, Master, we are perishing!" And He got up and rebuked the wind and the surging waves, and they stopped, and it became calm.

I wonder why they called Jesus Christ MASTER if they were Gods or equal as YOU have stated...

Your first example in John is stating that no one can be greater than a master. That is all it says. If my master is the Father how am I exceeding him by being his equal?

In Luke, the disciples call Jesus "Master" during his time of teaching his followers. Later Jesus teaches that he has taught them everything and that they should no longer call him "Master":

John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

It isn't hard to understand that a disciple goes from being subversive to being equal to the teacher - in this case being a man who taught the spirit of Christ. Why is it hard for you to believe that anyone else can learn this teaching unless you disbelieve?

Again, this topic is about the RAPTURE and yet all I see is misdirection, misquotes, and adding words to the questions I initially asked of you concerning it...

For someone claiming to have the mind of God, you sure seem to be having an off day :shk:

If you do not know something, how can you question its nature?

Here is something I would like to share because it reminds me so much of the rapture debate among Christians and how things get so heated. Read closely:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but have not love I am become as a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. Though I have the gift of prophecy and can understand all mysteries and all knowledge, though I have all faith so that I remove mountains and have not love, I am nothing." - I Corinthians 13

What is this saying? I'm sure everyone can agree that both the pretribulation rapture and post tribulation rapture doctrine have scriptural support, correct? So it doesn't matter if we can word our argument's eloquently, if we are correct in our interpretation, that we have tremendous faith, or the knowledge of all the wisdom in God's Word revealed to us. If we are talking to another Christian about their belief in the rapture with hate, everything else means nothing. There is nothing wrong with debating the topic but the comments like "You'll be raptured into Hell for being pretrib" or "God doesn't love you if you're post trib" have got to stop.