Lakota Indians Withdraw Treaties Signed With U.S.

"men have one of the shortest life expectancies -- less than 44 years -- in the world...Lakota teen suicides are 150 percent above the norm for the United States; infant mortality is five times higher than the US average... "
(from www.lakotafreedom.com...)

As far as I'm concerned, they can take their "nation" and go have fun with it. It's the land they can't have, however.

Declaring Independence accompishes nothing and it obscures the real root cause of Indian problems...welfare. Welfare destroys initiative and it is initiative that creates the opportunity and wealth that allows lifts people out of poverty. Making your own way encourages people of all races to take responsibility for their own lives. Welfare destroys all that.

The Sioux, like the rest of North America's indiginous peoples, are a conquered nation and yet we continue to play this indian sovereignty charade. There is no indian sovereignty, there was a war and they lost, and reality check of this fact is long past due. Personally I think the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the reservation system should be abolished because they do nothing but perpetuate the atrocious, 3rd World conditions on most reservations. Give the tribes title to their lands like any other American land owner and let them develop that land and generate income with it like every other American land owner.

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe


Very good posting mythatsabigprobe.

I wander if you know of the following, because it fits in this extraordinary news.
I find it marvellous and very brave that The Lakota people has take that important step, and now I understand better the importance of the speech of ware I speak of hereafter.

On the site www.eaglesdisobey.net... you find a DvD of Dr. Dan Burisch with the name “Many Voices, One Spirit”.
I have that DvD in my possession, and on that DvD is a part of a magnificent speech of Al Fast Thunder, Medicine Man and Elder of the Lakota Nation.
I was very impressed by it.

**Al Fast Thunder, Medicine Man and Elder of the Lakota Nation offers wisdom about how we should seek to survive this unique time in history from a spiritual perspective and speaks in detail about certain modern issues relating to the 'powers that be'.**

I didn’t find it on the NET, so I can not provide a link.
And I don’t know how I can put especially this part of the speech on the NET in MP3, so maybe someone else on ATS who has this DvD also can and will do it.

It is absolute worth to listen, and I was amazed by this mans knowledge, and understand their heroic step now much better to.


[edit on 23/12/07 by spacevisitor]

I hear a lot of talk on this thread about people ASSIMILATING into our culture. My family came over here 2 generations ago from Slovakia, and my grandfather barely spoke a word of English. He was embraced by our society and that was back in the1920's. What has happened since then? Are we so frightened (or disdainful?) of the way other people live?

Is that what our country's become? The Great Assimilator? Are we the Borg going into foreign countries? "We are America. We will take your culture and replace it with our own. You will buy McDonald's and shop at WalMart like good drones. We will destroy you if you do not comply."

Kinda scary.

Originally posted by pjsconcrete
Is that what our country's become? The Great Assimilator? Are we the Borg going into foreign countries? "We are America. We will take your culture and replace it with our own. You will buy McDonald's and shop at WalMart like good drones. We will destroy you if you do not comply."

Kinda scary.

It's not scary to alot of people because that's really what they've done. They are white and American so they assume they MUST be assimilated, that there's nothing wrong with capitalism or chemical-pumped foods etc.

These people are often so sick and pompous that they will point at a dying indigenous population, and say "what's wrong with you? you lost the war. hurry up and adapt. eat our poisons and find a job in your struggling economy!"

They have 0 empathy (which requires intelligence) and so you see all these people in this thread stomping around "How dare those indians! They lost the war! They can't have OUR LAND! WE WON IT!"

It's despicable.

Since the Indians withdrew from the treaties, does this mean we can take the land we gave them back? I guess they all need to start paying taxes and paying into social security. Boy, that was a bonehead move on their part. They don't know how good they had it.

reply to post by 4thDoctorWhoFan


I seriously hope you are only joking, 4th.

That is one of the most outright discriminatory statements I've read in a long time.
You can go to jail for comments like that in the UK.

I am stunned by the obnoxiousness of your attitude if your statement is meant.

As I said on the very first page of this thread, I really hope the Lakota are succesfull in their endevour and can break the chains of illegal bondage and slavery once and for all. May all the other tribes rise up and sing in unison with their brothers.

Originally posted by Extralien
I seriously hope you are only joking, 4th.

Nope, I'm serious. If they want to break with the treaties then they are going to have to suffer the consequences, ie paying taxes and all the other crap us 'regular' citizens must pay.

You can go to jail for comments like that in the UK.

Well its a good thing I don't live in the U.K. then.
Besides, how could one go to jail for stating the obvious.

I am stunned by the obnoxiousness of your attitude if your statement is meant.

Umm...I am not being obnoxious. This is how I see it. Answer me this question:

Since they broke with the treaties, why should they retain all the benefits, privileges and land that was part of the treaty?

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
Since the Indians withdrew from the treaties, does this mean we can take the land we gave them back?

Your post reeks of ignorance.

The land you speak of was not given, it is a national boundary drawn by treaties, treaties that are no longer being kept by either side.

The US didn’t give us that land anymore than it gave Canada Nova Scotia.

We were forced to accept citizenship around the beginning of the 20th century so you all just assume that Indian land was given, however we weren’t citizens for the first 100 years of US history, and that land wasn’t US land.

Of course you would know all this already if you had bothered to read the entire thread before you did a drive by on it.

You need to educate yourself before you post, you never seem to have your facts strait.


[edit on 23-12-2007 by cavscout]

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
ie paying taxes and all the other crap us 'regular' citizens must pay.

Any Lakota going along with this will no longer be a citizen (and citizenship was NOT provided for in the treaties) so your tax statement is off topic.

This is how I see it.

Yes, what ever you do don’t let FACTS get in the way of "how you see it."

Answer me this question:

Since they broke with the treaties, why should they retain all the benefits, privileges and land that was part of the treaty?

Benefits and privileges? What are talking about? Are you making it up as you go along?

So far as the land, I already educated you about that
.

[edit on 23-12-2007 by cavscout]

reply to post by cavscout

I am not surprised at your posts. Since you said 'we', I guess you are involved in some way. This would not skew or bias your opinions would it?

Look, all i am saying is this is not a good idea.
If one tribal nation can do it they all can do it. Of course if you think there is nothing the US can do about it you are misguiding yourself. Are you prepared to not cross Federal borders and to receive no benefits from the US government like medical care, food stamps, and social security? What do you have to trade for the things you need to survive? This is obviously a stupid stunt.

You need an economy to exist in todays world. This would become a instant third world country.
Are we going to have customs officers around all their borders, force them to obtain passports to visit the United States? Also, as non-citizens, they will be forbidden to work in the United States. Naturally tariffs would be enforced during all trading.

All I'm saying is this is NOT a good idea for Lakota.

[edit on 23-12-2007 by 4thDoctorWhoFan]

bowing at new world over...and...by the way...nothing in peru to date
is older than the harappan vally and ancient egyptian civilisation..

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
I am not surprised at your posts. Since you said 'we', I guess you are involved in some way. This would not skew or bias your opinions would it?

You have no business calling anyone else here biased.
One has to look no further than your avatar (and the various ones you've had in the past) to see the bias you wave around like it's something to be proud of.

Look, all i am saying is this is not a good idea.

That is not what you said.
What you said was a display of ignorance demonstrating that you had no grasp of the facts at hand, but were just eager to yap off.

If one tribal nation can do it they all can do it.

Actually, no they can't. Not all tribes signed treaties of this nature. Some were conquered and have lost the right to the land. The Lakota were never defeated and in the one war the engaged in with the US, they won.
The land is theirs.

Of course if you think there is nothing the US can do about it you are misguiding yourself.

Sure, of course we know the US is willing to violate both internal and international law in order to get it's way. This is a generally accepted and agreed upon throughout most of the world these days.

Are you prepared to not cross Federal borders and to receive no benefits from the US government like medical care, food stamps, and social security?

Um... no kidding. They'd be renouncing their citizenship. The fact that they wouldn't be eligible for US government programs is kinda... friggen obvious, I would think.

What do you have to trade for the things you need to survive? This is obviously a stupid stunt.

You need an economy to exist in todays world. This would become a instant third world country.

That's kinda the idea, as I understand it. To throw off the consumeristic "whiteman's" world and go back to basics. Living off the land and having a humble existence in harmony with nature.

Sounds like a worth experiment if they are willing to take it on.
Others do this sort of thing already, btw. Quakers, for example. They seem to do ok.

Are we going to have customs officers around all their borders, force them to obtain passports to visit the United States?

Your border, figure it out.
I'm sure they'd be reasonably happy if they got walled in and left alone.

Also, as non-citizens, they will be forbidden to work in the United States.

Er... I'm Canadian and I've worked (legally) in the US.
Facts dude, make 'em your friend.

Naturally tariffs would be enforced during all trading.

Er... wrong.
What part of the world would this new country be in?
North America, correct?
NAFTA is the North American Free Trade Agreement.
Tariffs would be illegal.
Then again... there's that thing about just because it's illegal not stopping the US administration from doing it...

All I'm saying is this is NOT a good idea for Lakota.

There are some serious dangers involved, but for them maybe it's a better bet than the yoke they are living under now. You likely have never been to a reservation or spent any time with "true" native people.
What's more, as I pointed out previously, you obviously know nothing about what's being discussed or even bothered to read the thread.

I would consider it a personal favor if you took some time to deny your own damned ignorance before continuing to post on these boards.

Originally posted by BitRaiser
I would consider it a personal favor if you took some time to deny your own damned ignorance before continuing to post on these boards.

That is not very civil of you. There is no need for that sort of language.
Boy, you really have a problem when people disagree with you so please go deny your own ignorance. Although I'm sure you believe it, you are not always correct. In fact, not very often at all.

I respect them for their choices.

There is a certain high resonance with those named places in America.

May they be blessed in the Indian Ways.

reply to post by 4thDoctorWhoFan


Look, nothing you said is original and all of it reeked of ignorance.

There is difference between opinion and fact. When your opinion is not based on fact, you are WRONG.

You don’t have even the basic facts to back up what you are typing.

Your questions about trade, citizenship, social services, ect. have all been answered. You would know that had you actually READ THE ENTIRE THREAD.

To keep yourself from looking foolish in the future I would suggest reading entire threads before you smear your ignorance on like butter.

reply to post by cavscout


Would be nice if he wasn't such an intellectual coward as to avoid responding to any of the legitimate points you and I made.

Really wasn't surprised, though. Check out his posting history.
He's just a troll.

The only reason he's not on my ignore list is he's good for a laugh.
(don't worry 4th, I'm not laughing with you...)

[edit on 24-12-2007 by BitRaiser]

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
Since the Indians withdrew from the treaties, does this mean we can take the land we gave them back? I guess they all need to start paying taxes and paying into social security. Boy, that was a bonehead move on their part. They don't know how good they had it.

Well 4thDoctorWhoFan, all I can say is this, if your heart is open for the real truth I advice you to read this book, and I really hope you do, and maybe it will change your opinion?

"Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee"

"In the last decade or so, after almost a century of saloon art and horse operas that romanticized Indian fighters and white settlers, Americans have been developing a reasonably acute sense of the injustices and humiliations suffered by the Indians. But the details of how the West was won are not really part of the American consciousness ...
"... Dee Brown, Western historian and head librarian at the University of Illinois, now attempts to balance the account. With the zeal of an IRS investigator, he audits U.S. history's forgotten set of books. Compiled from old but rarely exploited sources plus a fresh look at dusty Government documents, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee tallies the broken promises and treaties, the provocations, massacres. discriminatory policies and condescending diplomacy."[1]

Source; en.wikipedia.org...

“Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee” and this is the way it really happened.

Chapter by chapter, this book moves from tribe to tribe of Native Americans, and outlines the relations of the tribes to the U.S. federal government during the years 1860-1890. It begins with the Navajos, the Apaches, and the other tribes of the American Southwest who were displaced as California and the surrounding states were settled. Brown chronicles the changing and sometimes conflicting attitudes both of American authorities such as General Custer and Indian chiefs, particularly Geronimo, Red Cloud, Sitting Bull, and Crazy Horse, and their different attempts to save their peoples, by peace, war, or retreat. The later part of the book focuses primarily on the Sioux and Cheyenne tribes of the plains, who were among the last to be moved onto reservations, under perhaps the most violent circumstances. It culminates with the Battle of the Little Bighorn, the murders of Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, and the slaughter of Sioux prisoners at Wounded Knee, South Dakota that is generally considered the end of the Indian Wars.

[edit on 24/12/07 by spacevisitor]

Originally posted by spacevisitor

“Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee” and this is the way it really happened.

Really? If that's how it really happened, you must have actually been there, right?

I call shenanigans. C'mon your source is wikipedia?? There's a reason it's free, ya know.

This thread is hilarious, I cant believe some of you actually think something will come of this.

The tribal leaders are not stupid, they know that independence will lead to loss of:

- US citizenship.
- law enforcement (no more Bureau of Indian Affairs Police and the FBI to pick up things when the inept reservation/tribal police screw up).
- health care (no more US Public Health Service/Indian Bureau).
- federal aid and welfare programs (billions upon billions of $ that could be spent elsewhere).


EVERYTHING they have they have because of the so called evil, imperialist, oppressive federal government.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
This thread is hilarious, I cant believe some of you actually think something will come of this.

The tribal leaders are not stupid, they know that independence will lead to loss of:

- US citizenship.
- law enforcement (no more Bureau of Indian Affairs Police and the FBI to pick up things when the inept reservation/tribal police screw up).
- health care (no more US Public Health Service/Indian Bureau).
- federal aid and welfare programs (billions upon billions of $ that could be spent elsewhere).


EVERYTHING they have they have because of the so called evil, imperialist, oppressive federal government.

The Lakota indians have the lowest life expectancy in the US, so it doesn't seem to me that the federal aid and welfare programs are doing them any good at all.

And as far as anything coming of this, you're probably right. It is a start though. As I said earlier in this thread, there are several states that have been throwing about the word "secession." This is just the start of something. The American people are fed up as far as their corporate controlled government. Taxation without representation is the norm here again.