Lakota Indians Withdraw Treaties Signed With U.S.

reply to post by ChrisF231


Exactly, I have to agree with you.
Whatever happened to the American Melting Pot with assimilating people into our culture?

Originally posted by spec_ops_wannabe
I'm wondering more about what the State governments think about this, since it would be taking away a portion of their land. This is going to be interesting no doubt.

Their crying and moaning about it. Has it dawned on anyone that the US no longer exsists?

No one should be treated like that period. We treat our pets better and thats a shame. Sorry but anyone as narrow minded condoning this action by the Native Americans as some people on here are doing- I'm very surprised at all of you and you should be deeply ashamed.

Can you really blame them? Would you want to be treated like dirt? - I'm surprised they waited this long before declaring independance. For people who have zero Indian blood in their family tree can't possibily understand why the Lakota did this. I have Cherokee blood in my veins- so are you going to tell me to leave too?

This really hits a major nerve for me so expect no sympathy from me for our US 'Shadow' Government.

I am sure that Russell Means is far smarter than many of us may think, by 'Tax Free', is it possible that what is actually meant is simply no income tax for the individual?
One of the most damaging and counter productive things in any society is 'income tax' especially when it also penalises low income groups.
If a person can go out to work and actually bring home every penny that he/she has earned then that individual at least has more choices upon which to spend that hard earned cash.
This unimaginative form of taxation has not always been with us and we would all be better off without it, the extra cash that people would have to spend would simply yield more money in indirect taxation and stimulate business growth at the same time. Such taxes have been contrived by politicians who are high on guile and cunning and low on compassion and integrity.
I certainly wish the Lakota every success.
Regards,
Horsegiver.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
What do we do now when every little group wants to break away? If we let the Lakotas do this then tomorrow we will have the Puerto Ricans, the Mexicans in the Southwest, the militia wackos, all the cults, all the Indian tribes and then before you kn ow it we have no nation.

And how many of these groups have treaties signed with the United States? How many of these groups have an agreement with the United States which they can withdraw from? If they don't have such a thing, then they cannot withdraw from the United States without moving out of the country. Otherwise, they are "illegal immigrants" and the United States has every right to punish them.

Withdrawing from the treaties was entirely legal, Means said.

"This is according to the laws of the United States, specifically article six of the constitution,'' which states that treaties are the supreme law of the land, he said.

But then again, the constitution's just a piece of paper right?

Imho if this were to work out and others would join in it would probably be better. Like having 52 countries (ex states).

Will the Authoritarian Personalities (you know who you are) please forgive me for saying so, but the U.S. is too big. The US should be at least seven countries considering how big it is. It would be great to lessen US dominance if the US was broken up a bit, not to mention there is so much conflict of interest going on in the United States. I bet this will just result in a new treaty or re visioning of the treaty.

Just another excerpt as to the why of this movement:

After 150 years of colonial enforcement, when you back people into a corner there is only one alternative. That alternative is to bring freedom back into existence by taking it back - back to the love of freedom, to our lifeway. Canupa Gluha Mani

How many of us do not strive for freedom and have the willingness to defend it?

www.lakotafreedom.com...

just wanted to add that I saw another member had also written to the admins of lakotafreedom.com . That is a great idea! Maybe repetitive requests will get their attention.

[edit on 21-12-2007 by sizzle]

This is a hard news story at the wrong time of the year. Hence the overall lack of coverage.

Had it the coverage it rightfully deserves then I think it would have major implications internationally.

I'll use an example from where I'm from, New Zealand, and it how relates directly to what's happening. I'll be as brief as possible, no doubt some major points will be left out which I fully expect to be corrected on.

As many of you might be aware of, New Zealand has a founding document called the Treaty of Waitangi, signed between the 'State' and 500 Maori Chiefs (or whoever could get to the signing given the short notice period) in 1840.

Based upon a similar Canadian document, it was signed in good faith by both parties. However, problems arose when the document was translated into Maori.

Maori chiefs signed a Maori-language version of the Treaty that did not accurately reflect the English-language version.

As such, and to this day, calls for the Crown to 'Honour the Treaty' have come thick and fast. The government has a Treaty Claims Commission, which decides how much land to be given back and how much money to be given in compensation - as well as an official apology from the Crown.

But back to the point of how this relates to the Lakota claim.

One tribe in New Zealand never signed the Treaty; Tuhoi. They've been in the news recently (and briefly on ATS) because of allegations that they were running a 'terrorist training' camp. They also claim sovereignty of their land (it's rugged land too, I've used to go fishing around there - it's hard yakka, helicopter access to some places is necessary).

And this is the point. If the Indians have their way, then this opens up a can of worms for other indigenous people around the world who have (in my opinion rightful) axe to grind and a desire for self-determination.

There has been zero coverage of this in NZ. But, as someone wrote before, lots of news about Britney and Michael Jackson’s' 'lip disaster'.

I had to register just so I could reply to this post. I have something to say to the American Indians. I have done nothing to you. You are pissed about something that happened a long time ago. Guess what, your ancestors lost. Deal with it. You are Americans like it or not. If you don't want to be Americans then get out. I work in a warehouse 12 hours a day 6 days a week to earn a living. My department ships food yes free food to reservations. If this jackass wants to break the treaty then that should mean no more free food. I feel no pity for the modern day Indian. I feel pity for their ancestors. I can't figure out for the life of me why the modern day Indian feels I owe him a living.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
reply to post by blueorder

 

Like it or not, theyare the original owners and they still live there. If your interpretation of ownership ends with the death of the founders, this country died with the Pilgrims.

Sorry, but Natives never considered themselves 'original owners'. I believe that you are speaking from the White Man's point of view which runs contrary to how Natives viewed Mother Earth.

The concept of land "ownership" is not applicable in tribal belief systems. Indians believed in land stewardship, but not "ownership". Natives were nomadic, not "owners".

White Man imposed their legal system once they arrived and began to "settle" America based on THEIR world, laws, and value system. And it was White Man's "ownership" that has re-defined and determined the lifestyle of Natives in America. Now, Natives are forced to comply with White Man rules and their nomadic culture has been remolded into something that they have huge difficulty with.

The reservations I have visited offer great insight to their plights. I wish them the very best in this endeavor, and even though I don't believe they will succeed, I hope with all my heart that they do become an independent Nation within the US. The money owed them by the Federal Government is beyond embarassment. And the treatment Natives have been given for more than 150 years is despicable. Natives are a National treasure and look what the Feds have done to them.

Originally posted by jnixon1108
I have something to say to the American Indians. I have done nothing to you.

Nor have they done anything to you.
However, your government has done things to them (over and over, research the history) and now they are doing something to the government. This is not about you or "the white man". This is about a treaty that has been violated by the US and now the people are taking a lawful action as a consequence.

You are pissed about something that happened a long time ago.

Wrong.
They are pissed about something that is on-going and unending.

Guess what, your ancestors lost. Deal with it.

Wrong again.
They didn't lose. They made peace via a treaty. At the time of the signing, they're land was considered a separate and sovereign nation. There was no war, other than the "Red Cloud War" which the natives won. Are you not familiar with Custer's last stand? It was his last because he got (as the kids say) friggen pwned.

You are Americans like it or not. If you don't want to be Americans then get out.

That is exactly what they are doing.
They are getting out.
They just happen to be taking what is legally theirs with them.

I work in a warehouse 12 hours a day 6 days a week to earn a living.

And that has what do do with anything?
You need to find a better job, spend your money more wisely, or quit whining.

My department ships food yes free food to reservations.

Oh the horror!!
Sending food to starving people! Yeah, that just ain't right!

Give me a break.
Are you paying for that food?
No. It's being paid for by either humanitarian agencies or by the government (which is a thin screen to make it look like they give a damn about these citizens).

If this jackass wants to break the treaty then that should mean no more free food.

I'm sure it would. Once they are able to set up their own agriculture and food production, I'm willing to bet the starvation will come to an end. Until that time, I hope international humanitarian relief starts flowing. Without them being part of the US, it should be much easier to get them what they need.

I feel no pity for the modern day Indian.

Good for you!
Way to be proud of inhuman detachment from suffering.

I feel pity for their ancestors.

I'm quit sure they don't want your pitty, for their ancestors (who were doing just fine without the US) or the current peoples. They want your government to stop brutally suppressing them.

I can't figure out for the life of me why the modern day Indian feels I owe him a living.

He doesn't.
He feels your government owes them basic human rights.

Now I understand you're new here (or maybe you've been lurking/reading until this thread compelled you to post), but you need to understand that this site is about denying ignorance.

Not flaunting it.

Your post strongly suggests you know very little about the history of the issue. Go do some research. Learn something. Deny your own ignorance first, then come back and post when you have something to add.

Note: I'll admit that I knew very little about this whole thing before this thread popped up... so I spent the morning reading up on the subject. Now that I understand the situation better, I can make an educated post.

My biggest concern here is what they are going to do to prevent invasion. They can't hope to hold off the US war machine and the US has demonstrated time and again that it has little regard for the rights of sovereign nations.

Beyond that, I wish them all the best of luck.
I hope to visit their nation in ten years.

Good stuff BitRaiser, you got in first and said everything I wanted to say.

The same argument is made by many misinformed people in NZ too. Not just people of European decsent, but also the Chinese, Malay, Indians, Pakistani, and so on and so on.

I too have been guilty of making assumptions. Perhaps now he might hit use Google search and get to grips with a small history lesson.

reply to post by jnixon1108



I'm not going to quote you because, well, what you wrote wasn't worthy of quoting. I did appreciate Bits comments to you because they were ALL to-the-point.

Welcome here to ATS. Gotta say, though, you do need to read a bit of American History so that you can understand The Big Picture a bit better. If you could grasp some of the atrocities, some of that ignorance might disappear.

Oh, and that guy Custer? One of his most laughable quotes was "There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry."

P.S. Custer lost.....
P.S. #2 Custer lost in a BIG way.

I have voiced all my concerns for the Lakota throughout this thread.

The Lakota think they have it worked out.

My opinion is that it will be hard. A hundred fold harder than what is thought. If they can handle the hardship, all the more power to them.

If they can provide for the millions that they will be responsible for, all the more power to them x 2.

I for one would like to see them apply for Statehood. I believe that would give them a huge platform from which to make their life better. I know, some folks don't agree with this. I don't need facts and figures or arguments about the US government....etc.

I will just wait and see what happens. Hope for the best.

BitRaiser, point well taken. My opinion right or wrong is my own. I have studied much American history. I may be stuborn but not ignorant.
You speak of invasion. Do you think this is really possible?
I don't mean to sound like a smart*** but, I don't think the American government will even pay attention to this.

Originally posted by jnixon1108
I work in a warehouse 12 hours a day 6 days a week to earn a living. My department ships food yes free food to reservations. If this jackass wants to break the treaty then that should mean no more free food.

ok, so if the govt stops sending all of this food you are packing up wont that mean that your employer wont have enough work for you to work 6 days a week? wont that mean that since you are working less you'll make less?

Originally posted by wdkirk
If they can provide for the millions that they will be responsible for, all the more power to them x 2.

i dont think there are a million Lakota living in the areas highlighted on the map a page or two back..

jeeze......okay.....hundreds of thousands.....tens of thousands........

How about:

I hope that can provide for there own.

Originally posted by jnixon1108
I had to register just so I could reply to this post. I have something to say to the American Indians. I have done nothing to you. You are pissed about something that happened a long time ago. Guess what, your ancestors lost. Deal with it. You are Americans like it or not. If you don't want to be Americans then get out.

I can't believe people still act this way in the year 2007. Give me a BREAK, buddy.

American Indians owe YOU nothing. They did nothing wrong to YOU. What business it is of yours WHAT they do with their land and their lives?

I'll tell you why your so offended and upset at them wanting freedom : because you were indoctrinated to hate them, to remind them that they 'lost' and that they are stuck in America.

Telling NATIVE AMERICANS to 'leave' the United States? Do you realize how prejudiced that is? How ridiculous that is?

People who think this way don't deserve to live in America. Period. REAL AMERICANS respect Native Indians AND their plight. The rest of you are indoctrinated and have no clue what the real history of your country is.

This is my first ever post, after weeks of reading, so bear with me. I am a Marine corp. veteran with a minority blood-line that is Creek Indian, from the states of Alabama and Florida. I have never lived in any place longer than three years, and I consider myself to be a nomad of sorts. I say all this first because i want to relay the fact that although I consider myself just "American", I am labled a W.A.S.P. on sight. I live now in California, and I find myself thinking deeply about this same subject all of the time.
I pose this question to all of you who read this. At what point do we learn from our history, without having to carry all of the baggage?
My points: Slavery, which has existed for thousands of years, was ended in this country. Yes, I know that England had prohibited slavery earlier, however their economy did not have such a large stake in the labor provided by slaves. A majority of the first settlers on these lands from Europe were indentured servants, and the only reason they were treated any differently than african slaves was because of the common laws, language, and church that bound them to be. Was slavery horrible? YES! and we fought a war to end it, even as it still exists in many parts of the world. so why am I made to feel as though I owe someone for it? a tiny, miniscule portion of the people in this country owned slaves! Not my ancestors. And before you say that reperations will be made by larger corporations and the gov't,, who do you think that affects? US! the common working man or woman. we will pay the taxes, sacrifice, and pay more for goods. Is that fair? No!
As for this native american issue, and how my previous statement pertains. The U.N. has no rights to challenge our sovereignty. what happens in our borders are our business. like it or not, we have saved the worlds butt too many times
If you go back far enough, someone else owned everything. if you go back not even that far, everyone was a slave race at some point. Every one has been wronged. Do we really believe that the native americans would be living on the plains right now, next to a modern U.S.? No, of course not. So what is it that they want? They did lose a war. they were forced to sign a treaty! Does it suck? YES! but All peoples have been screwed at some point. So what, we now forget ALL of the WONDERFUL things that the common citizens of this great nation have done in our race to prove all the bad things? we are all going to give up BILLIONS of dollars to pay our great-geat-great-great-grandparents generation did? That money comes from the common pool people. I don't want to pay for this anymore! Can we just move on!
What ever hapened to taking control of our destinies? Why is it that each generation can't assume the mantle of their own responsibilities? Remember that we can't be responsible for the moral and ethical views of those long passed! We are the United States of America. WE take all legal immmigrants, and we welcome you and your views, as long as you support and respect ours as well. If you don't, don't come here. If you think that I will support the redistribution of wealth because people forgot how to fight for themselves and their own success, you are Insane. I will no longer capitulate to the will of those who lose nothing and gain everything at my expense.
P.S. I have ACTUALLY PISSED on the grave of Custer. Late at night, in West Point. I did it for all of you.

I hate to rain on your parade, but it looks like the whole thing is just a publicity stunt by Russell Means and his crew of a few.

I was cheering when I read the news (heck, I was already packing my bags to move to Lakota Country!), then I forwarded the FOX article to a friend of mine who has connections to the Lakota. One of his "sources" wrote back the following:

Talked to several folks enrolled in various tribes and here is my understanding:

1. This is one of the many fringe-wannabe groups that are constantly on the scam in Lakota country.

2. It is yet another Oglala stunt. For one thing, even though the Oglala (OST, the tribe that has Pine Ridge IR) are the largest of the both the Lakota bands AND the entire Seven Council Fires, it does not and CANNOT speak for the "entire Lakota nation" as Russell claims he and this group is doing. Frankly, any group of more than 20 Oglala can't come to enough of a consensus to get some one to speak for all 20 of them on anything political or social, much less to speak for even a bare majority of 10,000+ Oglala, 50,000+ Lakota, or 100,000+ Sioux (Seven Council Fires).

3. Nobody is going to lead any movement like an attempt to get a referendum on repudiating any of the various treaties when you consider the millions of dollars every year that the treaties to some degree obligate the Feds to provide to the various Lakota nations, to say nothing of the fact that there is no way to force the Feds to move out, and that the states would LOVE to have the treaties nullified and end the special "dependent domestic nation" status of the tribes.

Most of the attention here in West River South Dakota (home of the Oglala, the Sicangu at Rosebud, Cheyenne River, Standing Rock, and Lower Brule Sioux Tribes) is on the Lakota Nation Invitational Basketball Tournament in Rapid City: a young man from White River (a Sicangu) just broke the state record for high school career points and his team, the Tigers, is expected to take the tourney.

Russell is actually making exactly the same mistake that led to the treaties in the first place; a small group of men who claimed to speak for the entire group of nations (oyate) that make up any of the three branches of the Seven Council Fires, or even for their own band - or even the clan they belong to.

Sorry, folks, move on, nothing to see here...