FLIGHT 93 - The Biggest 911 Smoking Gun!

Mr Lear, please provide us with ONE piece of physical evidence to suport your case since we are able to present plenty to show that there was a plane. A plane that was shot down. The circular arguement will continue with outrageous claims since there are more followers than scholars in the US. This is one of the reasons Ron Paul is so big on the internet but fell so short in the real world.

I mean, if this was a psy-op, why the hell crash it inot a field in the middle of nowhere? If you wanted control, run it into the Capital building or another monument. It makes NO logical sense.

Mineta and Cheney are the keys. That is it.

Also, cell phones have been used on planes since the 80's. Fact.

[edit on 9-1-2008 by esdad71]

reply to post by CaptainObvious


There you go again personally attacking me and impugning my integrity.

Then how can a list allegedly register 0 altitude, time of call duration, and a name attached directly to an alleged call, when the alleged plane was "officially" reported to be at alleged high altitude, at the alleged time calls hours long, were asserted to be made? One line states three different altitudes 30000+, 40000+ and then 0. Zero means the plane has landed.

Now either prove any airfone calls were made, or drop it.

Its best not to take the bait to these people who are trying to derail the subject and create arguments.


There is already threads here on ATS about airphones.


What does this that have to do with a lack of any intelligenct, rational, conclusive evidence that a plane crashed in Shanksville.

Everyone who has read this thread between the personal attacks, and amateurish debunking has learned that NO BOEING 757 CRASHED IN SHANKSVILLE on 911, but thats only the opinion of MILLIONS of people.


I dont see how personally attacking and derailing the thread will every convince anyone of your WILD and Fantastic claims that a plane crashed in Shanksville.

Everybody knows that The Shankville site was the site for the September 11 th Simulated Plane crash drill exercise taking place in Somerset County.

So real they even fooled you...... oh well. y'all come around.

Sooner or later.



[edit on 9-1-2008 by IvanZana]

reply to post by IvanZana


From my point of view, the false paperwork called "evidence" goes far to prove lack of credibility in official reporting. That many times goes far in completely destroying highly inconsistent paperwork. No "official" report. No longer any way of keeping people tied to something which no longer exists.

That long phone call has been explained to my satisfaction IE 7500+ seconds or over 2 hours. The phone on the plane was left off the hook and the airphone transceiver was destroyed in the crash just after 0 altitude was recorded so the call wasn't disconnected until the Telco did so due to inactivity. The altitudes indicated are the maximum and minimum during the time of the call being active aren't they?

Originally posted by IvanZana
I dont see how personally attacking and derailing the thread will every convince anyone of your WILD and Fantastic claims that a plane crashed in Shanksville.

[edit on 9-1-2008 by IvanZana]

Nice strategy, still not enough for me, you have only presented what is your interpretation of what happen that day, your opinion against the opinion of verifiable experts on the field dont mean anything to me, just another WILD and Fantastic claims out of 100 CT about 9-11.

A question for the aviators here:
To do with altitude, airspeed and problems with the FDR data

To my knowledge airspeed indication still uses the pitot tube which is highly dependant on atmospheric pressure so compensation is required from the altimeter to provide true airspeed at any given altitude. The altimeter itself needs to be continually adjusted to compensate for barometric pressure variations and the height above sea level of the terrain being flown over to give a true indication of height above actual ground level.

Could it be that inconsistencies in the speed/altitude readings is a direct result of failure to apply the necessary corrections to the altimeter?

Just looking at mundane possibilities here.

reply to post by Pilgrum


That is good. Because those were minutes not seconds. That is 121+ hours where an alleged airfone transmitter/receiver is no longer transmitting or receiving, 17 minutes after an alleged passenger made an alleged 7500+ minute airfone call. That carrier has a lot of 'splain' to do, along with the Bush administration. Carriers charge by the minute not the second.

Radio wave transmitting and receiving has to be done between two antennas. One is the ground tower. The other is on the airplanes, if those airplanes have airfones.

So, if any plane is alleged to have crashed, how can any airfone still be sending and receiving signals for 121 hours, when an alleged call was cut off in approximately 17 minutes?

So where is that alleged still working phone and plane antenna, in all that "evidence", and when and where did they find it? Was is proved to still work? However, now I know where they alleged 0 altitude, to go with their 121 hours of allegedly still working "open line" on an alleged crashed jetliner, was dreamed up.

It is always those little details, few people think about, that can, so often, come back and bite the dickens out of the credibility of some written report.

reply to post by OrionStars
Hang on a minute there
Calls are charged by the minute or part thereof

It specifically says seconds at the top of that column, not minutes. Airphone transceivers don't automatically disconnect the call if the carrier signal is interrupted because of the high probability of communication problems due to altitude, weather, atmospheric and terrain related factors.

In this case the ground level transceiver didn't get a specific signal to disconnect the call because the plane's airphone transceiver was destroyed causing any calls connected at the time of that destruction to remain connected to the ground level transceiver even though there was obviously no conversation any longer.

You should know from experience that once a phone call is connected it tends to remain connected until the caller hangs up. In this case the caller didn't actually hang up.

There's no conspiracy in this either

[edit on 10/1/2008 by Pilgrum]

Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by COOL HAND

 

That argument will not work. The zero altitude and 7500+ call duration already did what I needed done. It Proved blatant inconsistencies in the "official" reports. The "official" reports "evidence" did in those who falsified reports with inconsistancies. It is known as self-evident truth - for our side not yours.

You could have just said that you don't know and saved me the effort of reading all of this.

Apparently you believe that we have an extremely precise method of tracking cell phone calls made from an aircraft at low altitude and this is crucial to your theory.

Too bad you can't prove that to anyone.

reply to post by OrionStars

One line states three different altitudes 30000+, 40000+ and then 0.

Actually it says, "35 to 41 to 0". Which means that the call began when Flight 93 was at 35,000 feet, the call continued as Flight 93 ascended through 41,000 feet, and also continued until it crashed.

Zero means the plane landed.

Or crashed.

reply to post by Pilgrum


No, carriers do not. They charge to the next minute whether full minutes are used or not. It is rounded off by the computer, before it ever hits any listings. Check out your cell phone bills. Those are minutes, not seconds, on those bills as well.

Unless people understand how radio frequencies work, they will never understand how all those listed names could not possibly be making the calls asseted being made. Nor will anyone make a 121 hour call once radio communication has been cut at the tower, the plane's internal antenna, or both. In the case of that list, that was only 17 minutes.

Because in radiowave, channel selection has to be done on the phone, in order to get a clear line and reception. They were only going to have a limited number of frequencies, IF they had more than one available on each jetliner for only airfones. That was not including the dedicated frequency the pilot uses for his or her communication back to the ground.

Considering few people, because of the expense involved in airfone calls, used airfones, there would normally be no problem in one person at a time using a phone. Try loading those phones up with 40 or so people, and everyone would be interfering with everyone else's conversation. I still have landline phones with channel selection, if my phone starts interfering with anyone else's phone frequency, or I am not getting clear reception. My phones only have so many options for channels just like CBs. Then it becomes wait in line for a clear channel.

I do have knowledge and expereince in working with radio communication. I know that list is bogus.

As for the seconds, people would not even have time to give a name or credit card number to the operator or be listed on any list, if that column was nothing but seconds. Some of the numbers are 1, 2, 3, etc.

It is all that paperwork that can send people to prison for a very long time. Al Capone realized that when it was too late. The feds could not get him for any other major felonies, such as murder. So they got him on income tax evasion using Capone's own paperwork. It looks as if Capone never heard of keeping a double set of books.

As I said before, it is those details, counting on and assuming the ignorance of all people, that can hang criminals every time. There is no perfect crime. The more people involved in conspiracy, the more the criminals leave details are left to take of themselves, and that never happens.

Hey John, I dont have much flight experience, but from what I gathered you know your aviation.

Can the tail section de-materialize, let alone the verticle stabilizer?

No wreckage would imply no plane...

Shanksville Crater... looking for debris...



Morgan Reynolds No More Games

Source

Still Smoking Hole... Notice that the grass show no signs of fire, nor do any of the trees



Crater from the air... Notice the scattered debris... ummmm yeah



Size Comparison... or how to make a huge airplane fit into a small hole



Live coverage of the first investigators.... two guys with hard hats just looking around... TWO GUYS? No fire equipment on site... Well since nothing is burning from all that jet fuel I guess they didn't need them



Source

Oh wait!! Here is the entire emergency response team that arrived on the scene...






Later they brought in equipment EXCAVATING EQUIPMENT Here is an aerial view of the "Project" Look at the layout of the area... remember that this 'crash' hit in an old strip mine



Source

Not a scorch mark on the grass... not a tiny piece of debris in the feild... just digging a deep hole in the ground... why? Well official story is the had to go down 45 FEET to find wreckage...

Well there certainly is a bigger hole there now...



Caption:
9/16/2001 - Somerset Crash Site- FBI and other investigators at the scene have excavated the crash site down to a depth of about 45 feet looking for clues. Digging a trench that deep requires special care to avoid cave-ins and constant monitoring to ensure any fumes from soil contaminated with jet fuel and hydraulic fluid do not present a hazard to emergency workers.

Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) Emergency Response

Crash response photos

So is it normal for the Department of Environmental Protection to respond to plane crashes? and bring excavating equipment rather than rescue equipment?

And look at the first image on the page... the all important task of making RIBBONS FOR THE WORKERS a full day before they sent out the equipment!!! Well I guess there was no rush... after all they were just digging a hole...




Caption
"9/15/2001 - Somerset Crash Site- DEP's Betsy Mallison and Freda Tarbell worked with members of the Red Cross and Salvation Army to make red, white and blue ribbons for emergency workers at the site."

I find it truly amazing.. no SHOCKING actually that ALL Americans are not demanding a full independent investigation, no matter which side you are on...

If you do believe the official story... I would think you would want to settle this once and for all... or are you afraid you might find something you cannot live with?

If you don't believe the official story why are you waiting so long its been 6 years...

You know I bet the Government just LOVES these conspiracy sites... all they have to do is listen to the hard work and investigations we do here... and they have a check list of 'errors' they need to 'correct'

reply to post by Boone 870


You people can keep rationalizing all you wish but it not working. So an alleged plane was 35", 41", and 0" alltitude off the ground? Any alleged passengers were at a higher altitude than that, simply sitting in their seats on any alleged plane on the ground.

Face physical reality. Your "evidence" is bogus, and it is losing your own points of argument for you.

Virtual reality is definitely ruining this country in the educational area. That is for certain.

reply to post by Boone 870


The prior post was for some levity. The tension gets so bad in these discussions, it can be cut with a metaphorical knife.

I know what the readings in that column meant, and did already know. I already explained it in another post, when people with the "evidence" would not explain it when requested more than one time.

I stated the 0 had to refer to an alleged crash landing. Was that missed in the post I stated it? That means communication would have been cut 17 minutes after the alleged call originated. It would not have gone on for 121 hours without someone at the telephone company catching it. It would tie up other people's communications. It would not have gone on for 2 hours without being caught at the telephone company.

reply to post by OrionStars



Orion, of course they know no plane crashed in Shanksvillle on 911.

They are just baiting and trying to derail the thread....

They will try to talk about, airspeed, phones, and anything that has nothing to do with the fact no Boeing 757 crashed in Shanksvillle.


We have obviously proven that no plane crashed in Shanksville that is why the 2 or 3 people who are pushing the offical story 6 years later are losing all credibility and have resorted to more futile strategies of derailing, and personal attack,



Good job you truther... Flight 93 will blow Septmber 11th WIDE OPEN.

Shanksville was the Mock plane crash site for one of the dozen of similar drill running on September 11th,2001.

reply to post by OrionStars
Does duration (s) mean minutes?
or did they have a spelling or interpretive problem there?
I don't see how you could possibly argue this simplest of points but from experience I know you will so I'll leave you to call it minutes, however erroneous.

The airphones could all operate simultaneously - the conversations are digitised and multiplexed onto a carrier that gets picked up by a ground station where the signal gets de-multiplexed and re-routed to conventional landline type telephone exchanges. The advantage here is that only one channel frequency pair can carry a multitude of simultaneous duplex communications and every plane can have its own channel within the allocated bandwidth for this type of communication.
Yes it's similar to cellphone systems apart from the multiplexing and the transceivers are far more powerful to cope with the performance requirements.

Now the way telephone exchanges work is that when you call someone and they pick up the phone a connection is established which remains connected until the person who established the connection (the caller) hangs up. The estabishment of a connection in this case was done by proxy via the plane and ground station transceivers. In order to hang up a discrete digital signal had to be transmitted from the plane for that particular multiplexed channel that was in use and when the plane's transceiver was destroyed that signal couldn't be sent - so the connection via landline exchanges remained in service until cut off by manual intervention.
That's the simple facts and electrical/electronic engineering and communications are my field but don't ask me about FCC regulations as I live half a world away from the US.

As to the cost of the calls, I don't think cost entered the minds of those on board UA93 in its last minutes.

I repeat - no conspiracy related to those calls

We have all heard and seen the tape of the news interview with an eyewitness that was on the scene. He said that there was a hole about 15-20 feet long and about 10 feet wide. It was smoking but there was no fire, no wreckage at all, NOTHING to distinguish that a plane had crashed. This news piece also mentioned and showed the wreckage strewn over miles.

I can dig it up if need be, but it is a classic and I assume most here are familiar with it already. It proves that there was, just like at the Pentagon on the first report, NO PLANE debris and no evidence of any plane crash at all. One person sees a smoking hole and some stooge says ' A plane crashed ". then, the guy goes out and tells everyone that HE saw a ' plane ' crash because he saw smoke and someone SAID it was a plane. They assume and spread, over and over, until the lie becomes established as fact!! At least to those who rely on others to ferret out the truth.

There was NO huge airplane at the Pentagon OR in Pennsylvania and it all was part of the mirage and coverup. The plan was brilliant, and one reason I want the perps unmasked fully is to know what genius staged this affair: It had to be a team of people with amazing skills and seared consciences, to be sure. They had to be convinced that initiating the ' struggle ' against ' terrorism ' was worth the sacrifice of several thousand lives on 9-11 and almost a million more overseas since. They will kill as many as they need to to accomplish their primary goals. Their goals are laid out in the PNAC paln and other documents that reveal the intent of the AIPAC/ Cheney cabal. Bush is a moron, a stooge..used and discarded by the real players as needed.

Why do you think that the Bush clan is buying up hundreds of thousands of acres of land way down in Paraguay? No extradition from there, a comfy life hobnobbing with the old Nazi mentors from days gone by, little Georgies hero's..and a warm and safe way to insure a free and lush lifestyle until the grim reaper rides into town to face off the scoundrels and intoduce them to their new boss, Lucifer.

But for now they believe that they are untouchable; they ignore all laws they do not care to abide by, they murder and kidnap whomever they wish without scrutiny from any agency or person, they run this nation trillions of dollars into debt and ruin the economy, they lie us into wars for profit and territorial conquering ...and the Republicans applaud and cheer!! The Democrats cower in their lairs and wonder if they will get in trouble if the dare take the monsters to task at all. Why, Fox news might call them bad names!! Their corporate pals who lavish money on them might stop the flow..nope, better not mess with that, huh?

No wonder this nation is on the rocks..in every way. The people are so far removed from the real truth that they are literally living in a created reality..

Recall the immortal words of Carl Rove? He said that we mere humans were living in the ' real world ' and that was gone now: He said that they were ' Creating the new world and new reality..those in the reality based world will lose, because the new reality is not what they think it is"..or words to that effect. I am not quoting but that was the general gist of it. Reality based thinking is old fashioned now!! Because the Bush gang has created and is creating its OWN reality, and we must all change our view of reality to match what they say it is...see?

Never in American history has such an evil and nefarious gang gotten to such high office. The criminals pardoned by Daddy Bush are all now the main players in Jr. Bushies world. Felons and murderers and cheaters and liars..political animals without a shred on decency among them all..that is the group that Bush and Cheney placed in charge. No wonder the Justice Dept. has fallen apart..no wonder the CIA is furious with the traitors at 1600 Penn. Ave., no wonder the dollar is worth less and less..it is all part and parcel of the grand plan, purposeful and intended to bring the middle class to extinction in America and place a police state into effect.

Nothing is done by accident. Not at that level. There are no spontaneous moves, it is all calculated far in advance. The media is gone..worthless..and the people are ignored by the newspapers and such. NO investigative journalism has taken place, except for Greg Palast and a few others, very few, for over 10 years. The Clinton scandals were the last time the media stuck its nose up the skirts of the players..not because what they found last time disgusted them, but because they were told not to..never ever look for dirt where our ' friends ' are concerned, and believe me they have friends everywhere the dollar is God..or rather, the Swiss franc or any other stable currency.

If Sibel Edmonds would be given the appropriate time on nationwide TV, and if someone with half a brain were to interview Norman Mineta and then Dick Cheney and explain what happened that day in the bunker, we would see the kind of reaction that gets things done. The people would be outraged. But 90% of Americans have no idea who Sibel is and what her case is about...and 90% of Americans, even if they have questions, still do not believe down deep that 9-11 was an inside job. They mostly think negligence, as that always seems to be the most plausiable answer ; the government screws up so much that people assume anything that happens can be marked up to incompetence..but of course we know better.

Mere incompetence could not explain the Towers turning into dust, or the fact that the FBI testified at the Mossaoui trial that NO calls took place from Barbara to Ted. ZERO seconds on the one call that made it thru. ZERO. There were NO calls from the Olsons, so why did Ted lie? Why has no reporter asked him why he lied? No, incomeptence can only avvount for a small fraction of one percent in any case..the system would have worked if it had been allowed to, but it was not. The CHENEY ORDER is a smoking gun and we all know it. WHY didn't the 9-11 Commission call the ' young officer ' in to ask him " What was the order that the VP gave that you were referring to?" Then he would say: " The order to stand down the Pentagon defenses". And then the fan splattering would start.

But of course, it would take a reported with a brain and guts to do it. And a paper or network that would dare risk the wrath of the gang...and that is why we never see it happen. Gutless or complacent or negligent..whatever, the media is grossly and criminally negligent every day that passes by that we do not get news of the uncovering of the crimes of the cabal. things have gone too far, the Orwellians nightmare has birthed and is now growing exponentially. It may well be too late.

Originally posted by IvanZana
reply to post by OrionStars
They are just baiting and trying to derail the thread....

They will try to talk about, airspeed, phones, and anything that has nothing to do with the fact no Boeing 757 crashed in Shanksvillle.

We have obviously proven that no plane crashed in Shanksville that is why the 2 or 3 people who are pushing the offical story 6 years later are losing all credibility and have resorted to more futile strategies of derailing, and personal attack,

I'm not baiting and derailing here, unless the presentation or clarification of facts fits that description which I hope isn't the case.

You have to keep in mind the fact that I'm actually impartial here and if sufficient solid evidence can be presented to me I can be convinced either way. To date I remain convinced that UA93 crashed at Shanksville in the absence of sufficient sound contradictory evidence to prove otherwise.