Proof that the pentagon didn't get hit by a boeing 757

Sorry Crowley, I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I don't trust the Government by far and I'm more than sure that aspects of it they had more involvement/knowledge then they would care for people to know, there is more than enough evidence for that. It may come as a shock to you but just because I actually think an airliner hit the Pentagon doesn't mean I'm a stiff upper lip, flag waving moron off the street...
It's that black and white, your either with us or against us, attitude that will stop you from ever even hoping to see the truth, whatever it is, for years to come.
It really is incredibly naive...

For a start I don't even watch CNN or Fox news, I'm not even from America, I'm actually Scottish. And believe it or not we do actually have access to independent, impartial news. Before you even suggest it is nothing to do with me, it is, since all the events since directly affect my country.

This assertion that because people believe the official story and believe everything that is spoon feed to them is as silly as this entire theory. People really do have the genuine ability to look at all the facts, separate them from wild speculation and make an informed decision all by themselves.

Appealing to people to wake up and see the truth does not cut the mustard nor does it alter the facts, which you have failed to address. You have simply thrown further speculation into the mix, including NORAD, military exercises and suspicion that the confiscation of video tapes is all the proof you need. Even if these tapes were released, tomorrow, you would claim they were fake, false or been tampered with. After all they have been in the possession of the US Government, it makes sense they would only put out a video that reinforces the "official version".

Your accusation that the US must been involved because " hey they conduct illegal wiretaps, hey, the started an illegal war, hey...." is mute and naive. You are actually making a mockery of genuine objection to foreign policy. I will expand.

“I object to the Iraq war"
“I object to the slaughter of thousands of innocent Iraq's"
“I object to illegal wire taps"
“I object to over 2000 US soldiers’ deaths"
“I object to the US firing a missile at the Pentagon"
“I object to us being nudged further to a confrontation with Iran"
"I object to the fact that "the war on Terror" as made the world a more dangerous place"
“I object to the fact we are not addressing the route cause of this hatred"
“I object the billions this war as cost when it could have been spend better elsewhere"

And that's how simple it, by simply inserting a false objection my entire voice is now a mockery. Why would anybody listen to somebody who believes a missile (or Lear Jet) was fired at the Pentagon? They won't. You are diluting my genuine objections; you are making a mockery of them. This simple belief that anybody who doesn't agree with the conspiracies agrees with everything the US or my own country does is naive and counter productive.

Would it actually hurt to say “Gee, I'm sorry, guess I was wrong", especially when on this forum alone many people have gone to all the trouble to argue on your behalf the fact that you are being deceived. Would it actually hurt to go, maybe, just maybe I should refocus my attention at the very real injustices in this world rather than simply diluting and watering down genuine objection.



[edit on 25-4-2006 by Stateofgrace]

haha. If those videos were released we'd know they would be true because they would show a airliner style painted A-3 remote Skywarrior.

Alot of us here already know the truth. 9/11 was an inside job. Terrorists may be able to hijack airplanes but they couldn't possibly plant explosives in the towers and building 7. Thats something only the military industrial complex is capable of. We're not going far enough by simply saying that the bush administration didn't do enough to protect america because we're looking to them for protection and hoping everything will be alright. They have their own agenda's to follow that don't benefit us at all. unless you like fighting in a foreign oil field.

Hey, Crowley,

Why do you think it is physically impossible for a plane to have made that hole?

What “crash investigators” are suspicious of the pentagon crash scene nowadays?

Stateofgrace, i can see you don't post much, you should contribute much more, you get my Way Above award.

No wings outside the building, no landing gear on the ground outside or inside the building,[the pictures showing a burnt landing gear,[ one,] could have been from annywhere,] no friggen crash into the pentagon. I've seen more wtreckage and debris from a motorcycle crash. It boggles the mind, [mine anyways,] that anyone can still buy into this and still trust this administration.

And why rent a car and leave flight manuals in the car for someone to find?

Not only that but they apparently found a copy of the Quran/Koran in there as well! Classic! Bravo FBI - Hook, Line & Sinker (Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain)!

Thanks, the Link, I really appreciate that, I would like to post more and probably will but to be frank these conspiracies are not a problem in the UK or Europe for that matter. Maybe we just have a different approach to things and that is what I find so really sad about all of them.

It simply boils down to having faith, that blinding human virtue and value in your fellow country men that they would never, ever conspire in such a way.

If tomorrow the Scottish parliament was blown up, I would never accuse my fellow country man of it, I would never believe a fellow Scot was capable of such a thing. Especially when all the evidence points elsewhere.

Putting aside the Bush factor, what all these conspiracies do, is accuse Americans of plotting and conspiring to kill their fellow countrymen. By planting explosives, firing missiles, planting evidence, removing evidence or whatever else. It is simply beyond belief that any American would ever do this. To blindly and knowingly kill your fellow countryman and then simply go home for a good nights sleep with your wife and two children.

Faith in your own, looking after your own and protecting your own is the very cornerstone of humanity.

By all means doubt your Government, doubt their motives but when these doubts are cast on your own fellow country man it really is time to have a reality check and figure out exactly who you are accusing.

Where is the faith? I know it is irrelevant what I write, how much logic or reason is used; it will never change people’s minds. Their own lack of faith in your own countrymen simply speaks volumes.

And this is what will ultimately condemn all these theories, because the driving force behind them all, requires that we really, truly believe that humanity has sunk so low that for the price of a barrel of oil we would slaughter thousands of our fellow countrymen.

[edit on 25-4-2006 by Stateofgrace]

[edit on 25-4-2006 by Stateofgrace]

[edit on 25-4-2006 by Stateofgrace]

uh Roark I do believe an aircraft hit the pentagon. Whats the FBI hiding those for? all the FOIA requests so far have been denied. remote A-3 Skywarrior

www.rense.com...
www.rense.com...

It's just a thought but with those exercises on 9/11 what was really going on. I wish we could really piece it together. Norad standing down. the Northwoods document calling for a plan to use remote replica aircraft in orchestrated terrorist attacks.

Crowley, you made a claim and I asked you to back it up. You seem to be ignoring my questions. Why is that?

Why do you think it is physically impossible for a plane to have made the punchout hole?

What “crash investigators are suspicious of the pentagon crash scene nowadays"?

Stateofgrace if only you can under stand greed in our country which makes
all this possable.
I have read and research 911 for months and I can say something is wrong with the whole thing.
Our gov has lied to the people of the USA and it HAS been proven many times with the help of our media.
You have to understand, we can buy people, and they will do what we want them to do, and that means to tell lies. When you have a group of people who are very very wealthy and know the right people, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

“Anything is possible”

Ok let’s look at your belief that anything is possible and anybody can be bought.

Scenario A. Flight 77 is hijacked and flown at high speed into the Pentagon killing all onboard and some 125 people inside the building. Cost zero, morally or finically.

Scenario B. Some very, very, very rich unknown sponsor decides he wants to stage it all. He wants to fire a missile at the Pentagon and make everybody believe it was actually a hijacked plane (although why,not even I can figure out). So he hires a top man, his Commander in Chief (I will call him the CIC) who is now on the pay role. The CIC goes about recruiting his crack teams of experts and places them on the payroll and has them all in place on 9/11.

Flight 77 takes off. Team A hijacks the plane while at the same time team B are planting evidence in the make believe hijackers car. Which since there was no actual hijackers the car was bought, or rented by team C. Team A diverts Flight 77 to an unknown location, since most believe this was a military style operation, they divert to the nearest military airfield. At the same time Team D are ensuring that all the civilian air traffic controllers don’t notice. Team E are the military air traffic controllers who guide Flight 77 onto the landing strip. Team A are met by team F on the landing strip and the aircraft is guided into a disused hanger.

In the mean while team G are firing the missile at the Pentagon. Presuming this missile was fired from a military aircraft so team H are the ground crew who armed it and the other military type people who store and control these missiles. The commander of the military airfield is also involved as he had to known a civilian aircraft landed on his base as would anybody else who happened to wonder by.

Anyway team A and F are now busy killing all the passengers and crew. Team I are dismantling the aircraft. After all this is done team J are called in as they have the transport to take all this evidence to the Pentagon.
Meanwhile at the Pentagon Team K is busy gathering up all the video evidence and team L are busy knocking down lamp posts.
Team J finally arrives at the Pentagon with all the evidence and met by teams A, F, K and L.

Teams J, A, F,K and L then don fire suits and enter a building that is on fire and full of smoke with all the evidence. Going past all the fire service, medics and anybody else who may be trying to help. They place all the evidence so it looks like a plane crash. Bear in mind it has to fool the air crash investigator and the fifty forensic scientists who identified all the victims

Once these are done Team J, A, K, L and F jump back into the transport and depart.
They all met up in the bar later on and the CIC announces” Well-done guys, a job well done, there is not a chance we will ever be discovered, as we have covered all the angles”

Now you figure out how much it would cost to hire the teams A through to K. Not only that but to continue to buy their silence. Obviously you can add or remove which ever team you want dependant on what which particular Pentagon theory you believe.

Now simply apply this line of thinking to the teams that planted the explosives in the towers, the teams that planted the explosives in WTC 7 and the teams that shot down flight 93.

As you said “anything is Possible”. Not everything is plausible, my friend.

StateofGrace
It simply boils down to having faith, that blinding human virtue and value in your fellow country men that they would never, ever conspire in such a way.

I understand your feelings, but once you abandon the notion that everybody strictly shares your moral convictions and general empathy, they just don't apply anymore. Operation Gladio, Operation Northwoods, USS Maine, heck...Nero - the history of violent deceit seems to be the history of mankind. There are people among us who couldn't care less about their fellow humans, it has been proven time and time again...

So please don't fool yourself, listen to your head, not your heart this time.

When you can comprehend why someone would kill a fellow countryman for a few hundred or thousand pounds/dollars in a mugging or robbery, then it doesn't take to much to comprehend how some of our fellow countrymen will allow hundreds and thousands to be killed to make millions or billions.

It's naive to think the powers that be have any allegiance to their country of residence. Their only allegiance is to the mechanisms that make them money and the biggest money making mechanism of all is war.

Big plane......going fast......

Okay, wait a second. I understand about the planes outer skin and the material it is made out of. I can understand someones theory about how the skin of the plane would disentergrate. BUT!!!! an airplane engine has alot of mass and forward motion. I saw apic. of an engine laying on the grass. um-sorry don't buy that idea.that a engine weighing as much as they do and all that mass and kenetic energy, slaming into a wall would simply bounce back into the grass....besides I have not seen ONE single photo with any wreckage in it. not one....no widows,luggage, support beams from the plane, chunks of metal, nothing,....always the same stupid pic's. its almost as if "THEY ", are controlling the whole aftermath about the pentagon attack.Only photo's I see are those same gay ones everyone is passing around, cause thats all they can find. its being controlled!!!! I still wouldn't believe any photo the government tried to pass off as proof anyway. They can doctor picures just like anyone else. Right now they just want it all to die off, all of the attention.DON'T LET IT!!!!!

Cyrxx, rather than complain about the “gay” pictures (:puz, why don’t you do a little research yourself and post the results.

How much does each engine weigh?

What is the diameter of the core of the engine, as opposed the outer shroud?

What are the various parts made of?

How fast does the engine rotate at full power (approximately)?

How fast would the outer tips of the vanes be moving at that rotation speed?

What do you think would happen to an engine that hits a brick wall at those speeds?

Will you do that? I know you won’t. Learning and figuring out things is too “gay” for you.

Originally posted by Stateofgrace
Scenario B. . . .

Which team is responsible for moving the taxi?






[edit on 27-4-2006 by HowardRoark]

Originally posted by Lumos

StateofGrace
It simply boils down to having faith, that blinding human virtue and value in your fellow country men that they would never, ever conspire in such a way.

I understand your feelings, but once you abandon the notion that everybody strictly shares your moral convictions and general empathy, they just don't apply anymore. Operation Gladio, Operation Northwoods, USS Maine, heck...Nero - the history of violent deceit seems to be the history of mankind. There are people among us who couldn't care less about their fellow humans, it has been proven time and time again...

So please don't fool yourself, listen to your head, not your heart this time.

I will address your post and the one after jointly, rather than quoting you both my post is directly at you, the post after and any other individual who truly beliefs that humanity really is dead in the US. For those that genuinely belief that people couldn’t care least about their fellow country man or any other human being for that matter, this is just for you.

I am not fooling myself nor am I listening to my heart rather than my head. I have presented fact after fact to reinforce my beliefs. All of these facts have been ignored, not addressed or simply washed over in an attempt to appeal to by better half and confirm that my virtues and values have no bearing in today’s day and age and especially since I am not from the USA, I couldn’t possibly understand the cultural divide.

These, appeals, again do not cut the mustard, nor do they address the very real facts I have presented. In as such I will now illustrate my belief in the very real and unreserved humanity that is very much alive and well inside the USA.

Just recently, in the UK an interview was broadcast. The person being interviewed was a young lady who happened to be a telephone operator. As she was being interview she wept, as she recalled a conversation she had with one of the passengers onboard flight 93.This lady did not hang up, did not put the guy on hold or did she ignore this unfortunate person.She stayed on the phone to the bitter and dreadful end. She did all she possibly could to help and comfort a fellow countryman who was facing certain death. She commands my absolute and total admiration, for she is a shining example of humanity. Her actions alone simply decimate any argument that people couldn’t care less.

I am sure there were hundreds if not thousands of similar actions that took place on 9/11. From the emergency crews who went into the Towers to a total stranger simply putting his arm around another human being who was weeping has the towers collapsed.

I know we don't live in a perfect world but I assure you that humanity would never drop to the lever you are suggesting it as and be preplaced by the greed and need from the quick buck.

I’m sorry my cynical friend but asserting that people could not care less really does not in anyway promote the theory that there is a conspiracy. Belief it or not, just like in my country we really do care, we really do look after one another and when the chips are down we, like your country rally together.

The USA is a long way from having “Abandon hope all ye who enter here” at every port and ever airport, because humanity stands head and shoulders above the people who couldn’t care less.

The simple actions of one young lady telephone operator bears testament to this.


[edit on 27-4-2006 by Stateofgrace]

Stateofgrace I do really injoy reading your post .
But I must say, you and I dont seem to see I to I on this matter.
A lot of People here in the good old USA would sell there mother for a buck,and keep their mouth shut. I do belive the USA has the highest crime rate in the world.
And the illegal drugs in this country wich is a billon$ business and is out of control.
Here in the good old USA the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and we could care less about the poor in our country. We are out for our self.
Sure we will help one another when there is a serious disaster lol but after the disaster is long over, its back to business of stabing each other in the back.
We are just a mess over here you have to understand we are disfunctional people
here.
And if we can come up with a scam to make trillons of $ and hoodwink everyone
we will do it.and you want to know Y Because we can thats Y and yes we the very rich here in the good old USA are very well protected. Dont belive me check out our crooked court system the very wealthy dont go to jail here. oops yes one did go to jail for telling a lie yes our country spent millons to prosecute her just for telling one little lie, her name is Martha Stewart. LOL
We have a President who has lied and lied and lied to the world over and over again,
and no one is Prosecuteing him, how odd I find that .
Yes we the very elite WILL murder 1,000 to make millons and we can SLEEP at nights.

Finally, somebody who agrees with the conspiracies and is able to use his own logic, common sense, real facts and an actual well founded argument. Rather than simply spouting wild speculation, unfounded claims and the logic of fallacy

I agree for the most part with what you are saying, I agree totally that Bush is the worst President ever. I am not defending him.

I agree fully with all you have said infact, including the fact that we won't see eye to eye on this matter.

The driving force behind my entire argument is quite simple I will not accuse anybody of mass murder without proof, of which there is none. It's really that simple. I would really like to see Bush hauled through the courts if he had any part in this or anybody else for that matter,but it simply will not happen because there is no proof whatsoever.

So you see, that our opinions are not that far apart, there really isn't that great gulf between those who believe these conspiracies and those that don't.

Simply offer up proof and the rest, as they say is academic.


[edit on 28-4-2006 by Stateofgrace]