Geneticist Says: Genetically, blacks aren't as intelligent. (Update: Now Denies It)

reply to post by docklands


People need to calm down and quit calling each other names. Be respectful, it’s the law of ATS!

I don't know why so many people are having such a problem dealing with this. People in different regions of the earth, have different characteristics. I don't see what is so difficult to understand about this, jus think about it for a minute before you start screaming that I am a member of the KKK. And on the article it self, how long and boring... stuffed with unimportant info.

Over the past few thousand years, the people of the world have had dramatically different histories, minus the last couple hundred years where Western European conquest, spread thought the world, cross breading between the people, and pushing people out.

There are several distinct ethnic groups that we are going to 'generalize' (sorry if that’s going to offend some of you, if you got a problem with that, consult the 1st amendment).

We will break the world’s population into a few categories, First we have the Western Europeans, then we have the Middle Easterners, and the People of the Far East, and The peoples of Africa, and the People of the Americas. We will now break down each of the ethnicities, and the lifestyles each had for the last few thousand years.

First we will start with the Western Europeans (and the people north of the Sahara), over the last few thousand years the peoples of western Europe organized into City-states, that were battling with each other, and were involved in agricultural, and farming, and domestication of animals. The rise of democracies, and vast wars between the city states, forced the competing societies to create better technology to kill each other with, this 'invent or die' mentality of the Western Europeans was a catalyst for scientific discovery, the desire to make better weapons with stronger metal changed the way people live. Also, with the availability of a farming society, an excess of food was available, having extra food, the people were able to have government, where people would just figure out how to run things, and not worry about collecting food. This excess of food, thus further allowed more people to specialize in other trades, such as a Blacksmith, or a philosopher. This specialization allowed the overall level of the societies to advance further. The invention (although it was adapted from the middle eastern societies) of the written word, allowed the societies to keep track of things, such as growing seasons, and started to be able to keep a written history. This also was advantage in war; as being able to write commands to pass along was far better then the written word. All these things contributed to a society that was keen on learning, and over the years, people became 'intelligent', by not having to worry about the daily strain of finding a meal, these people were able to specialize and learn.

Next we will observe the societies in the Middle East (and Egypt). Out of the Middle East was the home of the great discovery of agricultural farming, and the written word, and well as the early domestication of large mammals. This great land mass was very fertile, and thus was able to provide much food, and led to many great empires, including some of the largest ever seen on the world (the Ottoman empire). The armies that came out of the Middle East were some of the largest the world has ever seen in the ancient world. As time progressed, the technology of the Middle Eastern societies did not advance as fast as their neighbors to the west, but the societies had a rich warrior tradition.

Now we will examine the societies of eastern Asia (including the island in the south pacific). The people of eastern Asia, like the Europeans, had gotten the techniques of farming from the middle east, and while the people of eastern Asia did not domesticate any more animals, they had domesticate animals (dogs, pigs, chickens, ect) from the middle east. Now this is where I have some lacking knowledge, I do not know a good amount of the military history of this region, but these people were perhaps the first sea faring people on earth. Moving south thru the Polynesian islands, settling in present day Australia and New Zealand. These people were able to farm, and had domesticate animals, however, these people in the far south pacific had a varying range of climate, some societies did not develop 'advanced' societies with a government, and some never went further then hunter gather societies.

Now we will look at the societies of Sub-Sahara Africa. There are no records of farming arising in the southern Africa, nor were any animals domesticated. This combination of these two led to a society that A. could not make a large food supply, not being able to store and have a replenishable food source meant that the societies could not have dedicated politicians, or people that would philosophize. Since these people could not farm, and had no domesticated animals to eat, they were stuck in a hunter gathering society, and this Hunter gathering society was the society of almost all of southern Africa. Thus, the people spent 1000's of years chasing and hunting down game, for food. Why do you think that some guy from Kenya, or the Sudan always win the marathons...

And, the people of the Native Americas (presumably crossed into the Americans from Asia some 20K-50K years ago). These societies were very diverse, ranging from hunter gathers, to heavenly agricultural societies, these people however, had no large domesticated animals that would have been a sustainable food source. (And not having a large domesticated animal, this led to these societies to never invent the wheel, since there was no reason to). The farming societies that arose become very large, and were able to feed many people, and were able to create very diverse people within a society. The technology of these societies did not advance very far (in terms of weaponry). This is no better illustrated then when the Spanish conquered the Americas, there are battles where a few hundred Spaniards killed 10 of thousands of Indians. The wooden and stone weapons of the Native Americans could not match the Steel weaponry of the Western Europeans.

So in Review:

Western Europeans = A society that was based on learning, and technology advances
Eastern Asia = A societies that had a culture of learning, and agriculture
Middle Eastern = A warrior society, with the invention of written word, agriculture, and domestication of animals
Native Americans = Large agricultural society, with low advance in War technology
Sub-Saharan African = A hunter Gather society

Sorry for the long winded post, and for the many things that I left out that would help explain more, I hope that you take the time to read this, and see the historical differences in the societies, and what thousands of years of a type of society can do.

But, (yes there is always a but) people can learn, and if people from an African society were transplanted into a Western European society, over the course of some generations, the people can become 'intergraded' into the society, and 'fit right in'

(And just a side not, at my college I would say that 98% of the people at the collage are of 2 types of ancestor, either of Western European Ancestry, or Eastern Asian Ancestry.) And I know exactly one person, who came straight from Africa, and she speaks with a heavy British accent, and her family has been educated with Western European studies for several hundred years in Africa.

Please take the time to read, this is probably the most involved post I have ever made here, and any input would be appreciated, as well as additional info on the characteristics of the societies that I could not fit in under the character limit.

Absolutely most IQ tests hold no real merit. They fashioned to test the ability of someone to process, and retain the knowledge that they have been taught in school. If you don't fall into the strict confines of conformity of the inept school systems in America you will not do well on the test. Also if you are more of an emotionally intelligent person, or someone who excels in abstract reasoning such as people like Albert Einstein you will probably also considered unintelligent by most standardized IQ tests. There are many that excel on IQ tests, but many that do not, but can be no way considered unintelligent. Websters definition of intelligence includes "The ability to grasp the significant factors of a complex problem or new situation" Considering the large amount of socio/political strife that exists throughout the continent, and coupled with the lack of understanding how to correct the most basic problems including the spread of AIDS it doesn't seem they are adjusting well with the constant change in their respective African environments. This can be attributed to a lack of centralized education, etc. With that said it can be said that perhaps AFRICANS, actual AFRICANS who live in AFRICA, which aren't necessarily black( there is a large population of Arabs, Portuguese, Spanish muslims, and yes even whites), could be considered in some respects to be of lower intelligence then citizens of more advanced parts of the world.

This all has to do with the hierarchy of needs. Human beings will seek out food, shelter, clothing, etc. If all those needs are met like most people in nations such as the UK, the USA, France, and Germany, then the individual is free to explore more intellectual, emotional, and artistic venues since all basic necessities are met. A good portion of the people in Africa cannot even obtain these basic necessities let alone to be free to become internationally acclaimed geniuses.

Of course most of us are aware of the genius about both Watson and Crick. Genetic science would most likely never made it out of it's infancy if it weren't for the work of those gentlemen. Though what was implied was rather risque and possibly non pc that Africans are less intelligent than people of other parts of the world it very well may be true. Let me repeat however, this is reference to AFRICANS, who currently live in friggin Africa. This does no way indicate even based on the article provided that black people have any less of a capacity for the same intelligent that people of other races enjoy. Though genetics can influence brain size, which does affect intelligence, nurture does play a huge role, and there is absolutely no evidence to substantiate any claim that brain size is greatly varied from race to race.

The reason you, OP, are getting so much flack for your post is the implied derogatory tone in which you post. The fact that you don't even attempt to dispel the notion that you are nothing but a bigot only furthers the belief that you are in fact are an ignorant racist. I'm highly offended by you, and your arrogant stance on the matter. It's people like you that hinder any real development in this country.... black people are a part of every day life, and guess what they aren't going away. It's time to embrace them as valuable members of the community. The individuals of the black community that are thugs, or whatever you want to call them often get stuck in the ghetto due to the feeling that society is tailored to everyone that is non-black. Which too often is absolutely true, and it's people like you that perpetuate this system of hate. It's time for you to adjust to this situation, or go the way of the T-Rex, who's stubby little arms are a reflection of your inability to advance as a well informed, and understanding individual. You can try to offer some type of counter-point, but guess what, I'm not expecting much out of you besides some one liners, and how I need to open my eyes or other such nonsense. Let me leave you with some advice from Dr. Watson that was at the bottom of the article you posted.

-Always make necessary decisions before you have to (your thread is unnecessary, and never needed to be posted)

- Be the first to tell a good story (you never had much of a story, and you relied on other people work almost solely and then didn't even convey it properly

-Don't back schemes that demand miracles (your little scheme to paint black people as dumb demands a miracle to be substantiated)

-Never be the brightest person in the room (you've got that one covered, good job)

-Only ask for advice you will accept later (well you opened yourself up for positive and negative feed back when you opened this thread which could be seen as a form of advice)

Thank you for this thread, I haven't had this much fun explaining why someone is absolutely wrong in quite a while.

reply to post by TKainZero


Thanks for touching on the hierarchy of needs too. It's important to this discussion. lol, you must have posted while I was still typing.

reply to post by Osiris1953


I start typeing at about 4:30, it took an hour to type, then it took 45 just to get it posted, sometimes my internet does crazy things.

reply to post by TKainZero


lol, at least we're on the same page as far as our general thought process go. Did you noticed that the girl in the "What happened to me" thread is missing once more? Gee, I wonder why. lol.

OMG! it just posted that long thing agian, what is going on!

I hope that people take the time to look at what are the causes that have led to this things, and not just look at the Skin color and make broad sweeping generalizations.

[edit on 10/17/2007 by TKainZero]

Ladies and gentlemen

Please stop replying to this users posts i beg you. This user has posted several threads designed to get responses, you are playing into his/her hands. I hope no one responds after this post and gives the person further satisfaction.

He/she hasn't posted anything since!

Even if presented with a genetic string that shows the difference in intelligence amongst races, I doubt anyone would believe that. People would supress that info, discredit the scientist.

So why would anyone still try to study genetics between races?

Worse, the discoverer might get killed to make sure that kind of controversial discovery remain hidden.

Politically Correctnes permeates everyone's livelihood. Nowadays, at work, in social life, it doesn't pay to be truthful or objective. Case in point: you can't call anyone FAT anymore. You are asked by the PC police to withold any and all judgement calls that are deemed un-pc.

When one is denied the most basic human trait of thinking and judging, it's a very sad state. Seeing how people are biting the head off the OP, I don't doubt for a second we are already there.

i live just south of Oakland California, where the majority is black. i went to a school that was 40% black. also, union city, also south of Oakland, is primarily Asian. i've travelled across the states for my job and have went and done business with groups of whites/blacks etc abroad.

there are certainly common differences between various races of people. there is much more to how a person develops mentally than the course of nature and the conditions in which they grow up. i think as scientist continue to unravel the genetic code, they will see traits such as ability to learn and demeanor are also passed along family. even if there was "PROOF" of this, how do you publish it?

no one wants to be grouped into a race that is defined as genetically stupid!

in my experiences, yes, blacks have been loud, rude and overall stupid. asians are often the opposite. these are MY personal experiences. this is not an opinion. although my opinon does seem to reflect the statistical data that is collected and published throughout the world as well as the overall opinion of people during more private conversations.

if there are people out there who have mostly pleasant dealings with blacks, then congratulations. i wish i could be so lucky.

i hope im not the only one who thinks the thread creator should be banned for racism....

For those who thinks the study is geographically bound, I think the blacks across the pond from us is genetically superior physically. They are incredible hunters with great insticnt.

One note, why are so many blacks here have the so-called Fat Genes? I think it's because the blacks' genes are made to Survive, made to store fat because of the arduous hunting society in Africa. So when they come here where food is aplenty, their gene insticntively went to work and store the excess fat, instead of consuming it.

Back to the subject of intelligence. I do think racesm iregardless of cultural, geographical, economical influences, have ineherent diferences.

If we are not open to the discovery of these diferences, what good is learning?

Don't let political correctness and social cowardice cloud truth and objectivity.

The guy is a Nobel Winning Geneticist for crying out loud.

Originally posted by masterchief117
i hope im not the only one who thinks the thread creator should be banned for racism....

You got your wish... and I agree- he deserved it!

I was just thinking, if Africans are less intelligent as Watson's opinion claims, then how come Nigerian scammers manage to con people worldwide out of thousands of dollars of their hard-earned cash? Now who is stupid here, the scammer or the scammed?

this is absolutely the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life...as a black man with an IQ of 139 it offends me....that being said do you know how many black people own business's these days?how many successful black ceo's there are these days,if blacks were not intelligent would they be able to parley there record deals...of which most of their albums get sold to white youths...into multi million dollar record companies of their own, franchises, clothing lines charity organizations, etc etc...would there be so many great inventors....do your research white people get a lot of credit for black innovations and creations throughout history...you my friend are a bigot and frankly by posting and believing this article in the way you do...are obviously ignorant..and my heart bleeds for you..


edit: my bad lol i didnt realize dude was banned...and i reply hastily..ive not been here for a few days and saw the first post and got a lil perturbed...agrre with the dude who said iq tests don't mean anything...although my iq is what it is i did drop out of high school...so knowledge and smarts...is just that...knowledge and smarts to me....race has nothing to do with it...genetics...i see...but not exclusive to race...i feel if there is a gene that makes some blacks dumb...its probably the same that makes white,asians,latino's,etc,etc...that is all lol

[edit on 17-10-2007 by future flow]

Common sense......Look at Africa...........They are still running around there with spears and eating bugs. Yes there are parts of Africa that I am sure are nice, but as far as anything good coming out of that place in Oh I dont know in the last 200000000 years there has been nothing. Africa feels like another planet and I was only there 3 hours! They hack off each others limbs for sport. Most of Africa is nothing more than houses made of mud and sticks or in the case of W Africa a WAR ZONE. Black people in the USA at first were bred to be big and strong, not smart. A smart slave would be a gone slave. But we are talking about 5-6 generations at most...They have had time to breed that out by now. Now it is economics and social issues. Sorry bout spelling

reply to post by Beachcoma



How about the guys that invented the computer they are scamming on..lol...or the internet.....They scam tens of thousands, but the churches around the world scam billions.......Last time I checked the pope was white.

reply to post by TXMACHINEGUNDLR


Why does your opinion count?

You were only in Africa 3 hours, so be careful what you say

To all the Intelligent Westerners
1. Can you tell me how to classify the West Africans? As you will see that
West Africa is actually west of GMT, and is western. Are West Africans too more intelligent than the Africans east of GMT (Greenwich mean time)?
2. Would Africans east of GMT be more intelligent if they lived on the west side of GMT?
3. Can also tell me how to classify Europeans as Europe is actually east of GMT. Are they as intelligent as the peoples to west of GMT i.e. the Americans?
4 Are all Americans to classified as intelligent? What about if their roots are from Europe (i.e. east of GMT)?
5. Are the West Indians who live in the west more intelligent that Europeans?
When you respond can you tell me roughly when you think your forefathers left Africa, and whether you think they left from the east GMT side or the west GMT side?

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

Doesn't this go against the "spirit" of what ATS is all about? I think this thread very interesting. I can't say I agree with everything I've seen on it, but surely this Board would be dead if only one opinion was allowed.

Originally posted by Warlo
I suppose this is a great example of Nature vs. Nurture. It just seems if the phrase, "black people aren't as smart as white people" were true, then there wouldn't be so many white people working at McDonalds and so many black people with professional careers.
-Warlo

Perhaps you are ignorant of a little thing called affirmative action?

Why is a white person working at McDonalds?

He's in high school, he's just out of prison, he's retired, has a learning or mental disability, or he more likely than not comes from the same low income life with no hope and no options that many people of all races are trying to scracth their way out of.

A job at McDonald's is more circumstance than intelligence.