How can you honestly believe in God.

Hi, ufoabduction here. I think one cannot believe in the nonexistence of God and at the same time be able to account for objective truth. Truth is the correspondence of a proposition with reality, and it requires a mind to know reality fully in order to know that the proposition is true. Humans cannot know reality fully, and can never know that anything is objectively true. That means that nothing can be known without God.--UFO

Epicurus
Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”


I have no idea whether a individual being, an energy or a race of aliens dabbled in the universe/galaxy/planet we live on but if the God of the major religions exists than damn, he's poor at his job. As Epicurus said, "why call him God?"

I'm sorry but if he exists, I'm really looking forward to him explaining to me why he thought it fit to turn people into pillars of salt for looking back when he said not to, but let the church hide child abusers or pay off their victims.

Really looking forward to it.

These are luciferian imposters that use pranks to impress the public.
I have photos of Benny HInn, the Pope and many others making the occultic horn sign...freemasons have inflitrated ALL religions to impose their man made
apostasy. Read the King James Bible....King James was of the satanic bloodlines and converted to Jesus...Religions are man made...the Bible is Gods
word preserved and true. If you ask God to show you the truth in ernest
He Will l

This is my first post on any thread--read all the time though....

I just do not understand the question or the need for it.
Nobody can prove God to anybody, only God can prove God to you.

Nobody has the responsability to do that.
People tell about him and what they know of him and their experiances with him...other than that a person must have their own.

If you do not believe, fine and go your way.
I believe. More than likely, not as everyone else. I believe in one God.
I know other people who believe in a Trinity. Some believe in two.

Like others here have already stated very well, faith is faith for a reason.
You believe or you do not. You do not so good luck with that.

Originally posted by twinmommy38


This is my first post on any thread--read all the time though....

I just do not understand the question or the need for it.
Nobody can prove God to anybody, only God can prove God to you.

Nobody has the responsability to do that.
People tell about him and what they know of him and their experiances with him...other than that a person must have their own.

If you do not believe, fine and go your way.
I believe. More than likely, not as everyone else. I believe in one God.
I know other people who believe in a Trinity. Some believe in two.

Like others here have already stated very well, faith is faith for a reason.
You believe or you do not. You do not so good luck with that.

I would like to echo this poster, and say that this is the first time I have posted here, in a long while...in fact I am not sure that I have ever...that said, I find that arguments being presented rather limited on this subject...granted I have not read in detail all 15 pages of replies...

Firstly, science is based on measurement and what we can measure with it. It's about observing phenomena, and trying to predict it's behavior..etc Science is a method, not a religion, although some may treat it as such when they make dismissive statements about god and whatever the hell is going on in the universal memeplex. The idea that if we can't see it, it must not be there is ridiculous.

Can you see and measure consciousness?? No. Only brain activity can be seen...the contents of that activity as yet cannot be percieved by anyone outside of your body and thus you are trapped by your own limited perception. This idea I am hinting at is called the Anthropic principle, and it basically states that you need to be opened to the fact that some time you might not be able to get all the data and thus you will not know everything.
Remember that all of that science that is so prized is still only based on a system of measurement created by humans. No two rulers are going to be exactly a foot...measurement is an arbitrary creation...this is fact.

Yet science paints an interesting picture. A universe of interacting energies of different types and frequencies, that never dies and is never really born, that stretches for and infinity. A universe that is one massive self organizing self interacting system governed by simple laws that can create insanely complex details. All the while not really being solid, just a bunch of interacting charges that manifest to our senses something that looks like matter.

Materialism as a philosophy has this great knack for dividing things in to parts that work together, which they do. However these parts are not even separate from one another. You breathing out warm air from your lungs displaces all the energy in the universe ever so slightly. Not only that via non-locality particles can interact with each other over long distances exchanging information.

So if the universe exists where did it come from? And what came before that, and what about before that? If it was a big bang, what was outside that tiny energetic point particle before it exploded? Chicken or Egg?

Even the most fringe science of multiple universes, would have to include a universe where there is a god and jesus and buddha or whatever, because there would be one for every variation.

My personal opinion is that since there IS a whole self interacting, self organizing system that my conscious mind is a part of due to the oneness of reality I then have no choice but to admit the possibility that the one great thing that hermeticists have called the ALL for centuries could possibly be god or some massive universal intelligence that we are all apart of..the logos..the nous...etc

There is even a statistical chance that it's all computer simulation if you follow that fellow Nick Bostrom.

The bottom line is we don't no...so eat some dig newtons with milk and go for a bike ride in the country.

Proof in one word. LOVE. I have proof for myself but you wouldnt beleive me if I told you. Science proves the bible correct on a daily basis so what closet have you been hiding in? Just because your lost spiratully dont bash what you dont understand. Its easy to deny him, However its very rewarding to love him because he loves all of us.

I'm not going to say I can prove God exists, it's a deep subject, but I know someone who has done it definitively with a case based on historical evidence logically analyzed. You can read Dr. Gene Scott's essay (originally a spoken message) at www.resurrectionism.com.... Basically it's proven via the historical evidence and circumstances of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, examining the witnesses to the event for veracity and examining the first historical documentation of it (the Gospels) for internal consistency and external verification.

Here's a post written a while ago on another site about the authenticity of the Book of Matthew, the first Gospel of the New Testament, and I apologize in advance for the length of it but it will at least show the intelligence, the thoroughness, and the viability of the case for authenticity of at least one book of the Bible:

From www.theologyweb.com...

BEGIN POST:

>>mrmanuva “If everyone was an atheist, the world would be a much worse place, if your actions in life mean nothing in the long run, why bother being a good person? The sense of responsibility would kind of seem pointless, may as well just have a good time and make the most of it.”>Sri Oracle
“Well... I have in my mind defined god as "all that is was and ever shall be." So whenever I come into contact with anything that IS, WAS, or SHALL BE... I know I am interacting with what I have DEFINED as God.”

Epicurus left out two other conditions -- does God institute and set covenants? and does He allow free-willed beings to participate in those covenants?

You see, if a being that has done good and earned credits turns evil and rebels against God after God has already covenanted a span of life and power to that being on those credits, if God just revokes the credits to punish the rebellious being (spits and wipes out the Devil on the spot), then He is malevolent, to be seen as arbitrary regardless of the enemy's behavior. To remain benevolent -- or righteous is a better word -- God must honor his side of the covenant until it expires at the set time. He can punish in other ways, but not by going back on His word lest He shake the foundations of trust in His word that He wants to build. That's where righteousness conflicts with desire -- "Let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, not as I will but Thine."

If God makes it impossible for the enemy being to rebel in the first place, then He sacrifices free will in favor of His will overriding all. That makes faith and love impossible, because both must have a sphere of free will in order to operate as faith in spite of seen circumstances and love freely given. Faith is the right use of freedom, and sin is the abuse of freedom, but God is willing, in the Biblical frame of reference, to risk unleashing freedom and the opportunity it gives evil to exist in order to allow beings to exist who can truly love and trust Him as well as one another.

Therefore God is willing and able to prevent evil, but not at the cost of His honor, which guarantees He keeps the universe existing with consistent laws, and our free will which allows a relationship based on trust and love to exist between us and Him. So, I prefer to believe God is after a higher goal than blind programmed robotic obedient perfection.

Originally posted by bags
Epicurus
Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”


I have no idea whether a individual being, an energy or a race of aliens dabbled in the universe/galaxy/planet we live on but if the God of the major religions exists than damn, he's poor at his job. As Epicurus said, "why call him God?"

I'm sorry but if he exists, I'm really looking forward to him explaining to me why he thought it fit to turn people into pillars of salt for looking back when he said not to, but let the church hide child abusers or pay off their victims.

Really looking forward to it.

[edit on 5-8-2007 by ozzyfl]

[edit on 5-8-2007 by ozzyfl]

[edit on 5-8-2007 by ozzyfl]

[edit on 5-8-2007 by ozzyfl]

[edit on 5-8-2007 by ozzyfl]

What's the occultic horn sign?

And, are you saying Mary Queen of Scots was descended from Satan? If that's so you might want to apologize to the people of Scotland and take that back.

Originally posted by letsroll
These are luciferian imposters that use pranks to impress the public.
I have photos of Benny HInn, the Pope and many others making the occultic horn sign...freemasons have inflitrated ALL religions to impose their man made
apostasy. Read the King James Bible....King James was of the satanic bloodlines and converted to Jesus...Religions are man made...the Bible is Gods
word preserved and true. If you ask God to show you the truth in ernest
He Will l

First of all who's writing it? And who decides what books will be in it?

Originally posted by 3_Libras
Can someone answer me this question....

If the Bible was to be written today, how different do you think it would be? And be honest. Because it would have to take into account a number of different things, that just werent able to be foreseen when it was written.

what's the point wondering if god exists or not...if you don't believe...fine. but don't try to scrutinzie others and convince them otherwise...if you want proof, you'll get it oneday...it might take you being dead and waking up to no god or whatever god you do believe in , but oneday you'll know without a doubt whether god exists or not....then without a doubt....

Originally posted by jlpinei
what's the point wondering if god exists or not...if you don't believe...fine. but don't try to scrutinzie others and convince them otherwise...if you want proof, you'll get it oneday...it might take you being dead and waking up to no god or whatever god you do believe in , but oneday you'll know without a doubt whether god exists or not....then without a doubt....

You make no sense, are you speaking the engrish? I already know there is no god. So what point are you trying to make here? I'm just confused I guess.


HAHAHAH


Jasn

u don't have to be such an a*s jasn!!!! i'm trying to get them 200 posts so i can chat man!!! quit missing with my chi!

You need to seek God before you can understand Him. This sounds like the proverbial "Why does God let bad things happen to good people? queston." The answer is that although God loves us, we are His children and He gives all of us free will. Free to believe, free not to believe, free to make stupid choices, free for the people around us to make stupid choices. He never promised that there would not be consequences! Just as any good parent teaches his/her children that there are consequences for your actions. Just because you allow your child to make bad choices does not mean that you are a bad parent, how else will they learn?

For all of you non-believers out there. I have a challege for you. Keep an open mind and ask God to reveal Himself to you. I mean get down on your knees and HONESTLY ask Him! That is if you REALLY want to know!

Actually, I believe you can prove to yourself that there is a God or Gods. Personally, I like Sylvia Browns' ideas, and as a gnostic worship Father and Mother Gods. Pray to the Gods for miracles, and your prayers will be answered. Although I don't agree with mainline Christianity, I do believe that God(s) will answer prayers, regardless of religious affiliation, as the Gods know our hearts. I believe that we humans are not bright enough to visualize Gods that created a billion-billion stars. So I choose to believe in the Gods, and pray for knowledge of Mother and Father Gods will for me, and the power to carry that out. Being a heretic often simply means that one is thinking about religion and spirituality. As it has been aptly put, spirituality unites, religion divides. Regardless of whether or not my reply enlightens anyone, I do have a really powerful video link that debunks classical Christian mythology. Proceed to:
www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?t=7516
Then click the play on the "Krishna, born of a virgin" video.
Please note that there are no atheists in foxholes, and I hope that the Gods bless you all, mainstream Christians included. We are ideally spiritual beings having a human experience.

Interesting question. We are taught traditions by people we trust or believe..then either choose to invest ourselves in them...file them to validate membership in a group....(see...I am christian because I was raised as such & was baptized..)...or replace them with something that makes more sense in relation to our life experiences. (Tons of other descriptions exist here...but most folks are religious because mom and dad, or a respected or admired person demonstrated religiosity to them and either as a lemming, or a true investigator, they adopt what is presented)
I can't prove God...but I shouldn't have to. In my tradition, God has proven himself to me repeatedly. I am happy with the level of proof provided by God to me..and what others propose philosophically has not risen to the level of validity worthy of taking the place of my faith, experience and knowledge regarding God & His existence.
I was impressed as I studied Chemistry and Physics in college (no BS..I really was trained to be an entry level scientist...also no B.S. in that I walked away half way through my senior year beause the financial future of my chosen field really didn't look that promising) that there was a vast divide between 2 groups of equally effective researchers....people of religious faith...and people who had faith that science had long since dispelled the notion of deity. People in the religious camp didn't begrudge the non-theists their space and right to dissent, but the non-theist crowd usually had more than a live & let live attitude toward their theist peers.
Why get so cranky about the fact that I am able to apply scientific method to analyzing the world circumscribed by my chosen area of science (inorganic chemistry), and then go home and sing praise to my God with my wife and children?
Is there a problem? I see evidence of God's existence throughout my life from the mundane feeling to improve my lot in life to the divine blesssing of His comfort after burrying a lost child. I try to understand the world I study and seek & often receive divine guidance in the form of insprired thought separate and distinct from my own....but to prove that to you...I would have to invent a way for you and I to occupy the space between my ears at the same time...and that is unfortunately not yet possible.
Your happiness is your responsibility....& mine is mine. If I try and share what makes me happy with you and you see it as unverifiable.....and you are given the same opportunity to share with me what makes you happy and I see it as less than what I feel I already have...why rant about the differences. You don't believe something that I do believe. You and I can train in the disciplines of math and science...discover evidence of black holes...or perhaps figure out the real issues with managing gravity....(sure it's a property of matter...but I want to exploit it, manipulate it, manage it.....don't you?) and still be a theist and a non-theist using our shared intellect to become something greater than either of us are alone....so don't sweat my over abundance of faith, or your lack of faith in something beyond our current understanding...let's work on something we can agree on.

If you believe in God because it's so idiotic to believe in "nothingness" from which eventually existence came forth.

Then where did God came from? Or was he ''just there''.
Then is it that odd to think that humans could've been ''just there''?
So this will result in a never-ending line.
Who created God? This or that?
Then where did that come from, it just ''existed''?
If it wasn't created it came from nothing, just like other people believe people did come from.


And about the Chicken and the Egg comparison.
That's something different.

A chicken produces an egg, from which comes forth, another chicken.

However in the God - Human situation, God did not ''produce'' a human from his womb (at least not according to the stories I know).
Nor did "God" get born due to a girl being pregnant.

Here either the God came out of nowhere and created man (man is perceivable).
Or Man came "out of nowhere", and "invented" God (God is not perceivable, OTHER things can only be interpret as associated with God or being God himself.)

In the case of a chicken we can perceive the egg, we can perceive the chicken.

With God we can only perceive the bible, and INTERPRET things as God.

The difference in drawing these processes is this:
Chicken & Egg question: Circle (Chicken -> Egg -> Chicken -> Egg)
In Real Life: Circle (Chicken -> Egg -> Chicken -> Egg)

God & Human question: Circle (God -> Human -> God -> etc. etc.)
In Real Life: LINE (God or human -> The other one -> the rest of history)

[edit on 6/8/07 by -0mega-]

When a atheist starts asking others "How can you honestly believe in God?" it shows that he's just trying to agitate people. In an arguement about this, you'll have a group of people saying "Prove God DOES exist", and another group saying "Prove God DOSEN'T exist". When will people realise neither can be done, and just let others believe what they believe? It is a persons choice to believe what they want, so why bother them about it so much? I know that on Irish TV, a pshchiatrist said that people believe in God because their parents raised them that way. If you tell a 2 year old there's a guy who made the world and did a load of other cool crap, they'll believe you because they're only kids, and they don't know any better. So, this arguement wil go on and on for generations. Just give it up now, rather than waste time. Let them believe in what they believe in.

Originally posted by Hexidecimal
Why do you, those that do, believe in God?
Prove to me, your god. Why do you believe.

I believe because it 'behooves' me more to believe than not to believe.... and because I've also 'experienced' the love of God firsthand. (Something I can't prove or share... so that's that.. not part of this discussion further.)

Let me simplify this less than simple subject for everyone in a nutshell, if you will... otherwise we'll spend what's left of eternity (if we have that even) debating on the subject.. lol

By believing in GOD and following HIS precepts as defined in the Bible... I diligently strive and attempt at being a better person and living a Godly Life. When I die (and this I most assuredly will do) only to discover I'm wrong in my beliefs find there is no God.. .. then I've lost nothing... I lived a good Life and that's all there is. However, if I'm RIGHT, and those of you who do not believe are wrong... then you've lost everything. The Bible clearly states you must choose NOW.. while you are living... and there's no second chance after death. The Devil is a LIAR... and his most persuasive lie is the one that convinces that HE doesn't exist.... nor does God.... nor do we. All of this is just 3D illusion nothingness of our own making. We're all Gods! (That seems to be the politically correct or popular position within the new age movement of the moment). No one wants to answer to anybody concerning anything. No one wants to be held accountable. No one. Not even me. What I choose to believe means nothing... what I 'think' is 'air'. What GOD says? Well... that's something we all should consider seriously.

Yup... I believe there's a GOD because I'm not willing to bet ETERNITY that there isn't.



"Are you?"

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