How can you honestly believe in God.

All i have to say about this is that I personally don't beleive in god because if there was a supererior being that created everything wouldn't he have control over everything.

well see the God of the bible does not control everything. he allows things to happen. its your choice to put the ball in Gods court. if you want him to have control of your life because he knows what is best, you life normally turns out pretty good. he doesnt control you. he doesnt make you love him, as a matter of fact there are a lot of people who dont love him, let alone believe in him. thats why God gave adam the choice to either obey or eat from the tree. he didnt make him not eat from the tree, he gave him that choice.

And if he did create everything why would he create diseases like AIDS or Cancer. And If this so called "God" controlled everything why is there innocent young children that live in third world countries dying everyday of starvation. How could this "God" let these things happen to his very own creations.

God didnt make the world like this, man messed up and caused all the bad in the world. thats like arriving at a car wreck and asking why GM made a smashed car... cant blame GM for the car ending up like that.

All im saying is what kind of Person/God/Supirior being could knowingly cause the deaths of his own children

A loving God, a jealous God, one who gives free will, one who allows things to happen rather than making them happen. you have to understand the meaning of true worship and His love in order to realize why God allows such things to happen. people often times just assume he doesnt exist because life isnt fair. I dont think it was fair for Christ to have to die on the cross and suffer as much as he did in order for me to get into heaven. thats not fair at all for him, but he did it anyway.

you're throwing out the flawed pascal's wager argument, but the thing is that you're actually worse off worshipping the wrong deity than no deity at all.

Christianity is not a religion, its a relationship with Christ. you develop a relationship by reading, praying, fellowship, worship, praise and meditating on his word. again, if you understand Gods love, you will understand that he is the true God.

Do you forget that Jesus never talked about a heaven after death, but a kingdom of heaven that was at hand. Live for today, forget about after death.

are you sure about that. what about before he died? he told the thief on the cross next to him that he would be with him in paradise. Jesus said that the only way to the father was through him... what do you think that means? if the father is in heaven, then that would mean you would have to go to heaven to be with the father.

Actually, when you think about it, that's an extremely un-Christian thing you believe in.

Jesus' words are now where? in the bible right? and actually he quoted the bible many times, he often started with "for it is written..." Jesus DID preach the bible on may occasions. and no reading a book does not make you holy (your right), but hiding it in your heart, applying it your life, living by his word. that does make you holy in Gods eyes.

Originally posted by Methuselah

well see the God of the bible does not control everything. he allows things to happen. its your choice to put the ball in Gods court. if you want him to have control of your life because he knows what is best, you life normally turns out pretty good. he doesnt control you. he doesnt make you love him, as a matter of fact there are a lot of people who dont love him, let alone believe in him. thats why God gave adam the choice to either obey or eat from the tree. he didnt make him not eat from the tree, he gave him that choice.

But saying that discounts the idea that God is all-powerful and all-creating. If he indeed is omnipotent, he decided what choices you were going to make, what shoes you were going to wear, what sandwich you eat at lunch. The ideas of free-will and an all-powerful god do not mesh.

Think about it this way. Bob is in a moral dilemma; he has to decide if he's going to take his dying comatose wife off of life support, but he doesn't know what the "RIGHT" thing is to do. A Christian would say he has the freedom to make a choice. But then...people say things like "God has a plan" and "I'm in this spot for a reason"...well if this all has been planned out and every action in the universe has led up to this moment in your life by the will of God, HOW IS THAT FREE WILL? It's a stage where all the props and actors have been set for eternity.

That leads a person to another idea; if the Christian god exists and what I have said is true, then how does such a deity deserve any respect? He clearly creates his friends, puts them in an invisible prison cell, and lies to them, telling them they have the choice to do what they please, but if they don't they will suffer for all eternity. But HE planned out that they would not do what he said was the right thing. It's all very convoluted, and such a figure deserves no respect or adoration. It's childish what He's doing.

Jesus' words are now where? in the bible right? and actually he quoted the bible many times, he often started with "for it is written..." Jesus DID preach the bible on may occasions. and no reading a book does not make you holy (your right), but hiding it in your heart, applying it your life, living by his word. that does make you holy in Gods eyes.

You're right, Jesus did talk about the Bible. However, his birth marked the new covenant between man and God, in which holiness was derived from following the Golden Rule. What you said was that if you never read the Bible you will know not how to keep yourself from sinning...but this is not what Jesus taught. Jesus taught that all you need to remember and practice is treating yourself others with love and respect. The Bible is not necessary to get into Heaven, Jesus is.

[edit on 9-8-2007 by iceofspades]

Originally posted by Hexidecimal
Why do you, those that do, believe in God?

You cannot prove he exists. I know there's going to be people that say, "Well, you can't prove he dosn't either". So? I guess then I'll worship Bigfoot, The Easter Bunny, The Loch Ness monster, or any other mythical beast. You can't prove they dont exist either. "Theres no proof it does or doesn't, so it exists." I guess Wizards, Giants, heck, even Lygars exist.

Perhap's we live in a Simulated Universe. It's highly possible. With the way technology is advancing, Perhaps the real year is the year 3000, and technology is so advanced, that we cannot tell it's virtual, and we beleive we are in the year 2007. You can't tell me I'm wrong, and I can't say im right. There's no evidence for either.

As with my discussion on Shelley yates, I'm going to state the same point. Religion Sells. Someone, perhaps not even 100's of years ago, wrote the bible. They sold it to make money, as it was a good story, and people, either intentional or not, took it as a religion. There is no proof it was written when it says it was. The Bible says it was written then, but that dosn't make it right. "Scriptures written back then say it was written then." So someone primitive wrote down some ideas, and someone later in time make a book out of them. Doesn't mean it was.

Prove to me, your god. Why do you believe.

i like that yin yang symbol of yours.

for me

god=>consciousness=>light=>energy=>physical matter

yada, yada hey

You're right, Jesus did talk about the Bible. However, his birth marked the new covenant between man and God, in which holiness was derived from following the Golden Rule. What you said was that if you never read the Bible you will know not how to keep yourself from sinning...but this is not what Jesus taught. Jesus taught that all you need to remember and practice is treating yourself others with love and respect. The Bible is not necessary to get into Heaven, Jesus is.

the thing you dont understand is this, sin separates us from God, and if I keep sinning, I will grow further and further from God. but if I do what the bible says and read the bible and hide it in my heart, and apply it to my life, I will grow closer to God and further from sin.

most times when we think we dont need to bible to get into heaven we tend to sin more because we dont know what God says about the things we consider gray areas. in the end we end up giving up on the bible and not reading it at all. then we end up giving up church even tho the bible does say we should attend church. and in the end we give up on God blaming him for al our problems.
reading the bible is not a requirement but it is highly recommended by the book of psalms. the bible is here so we can learn about Christ and how to draw close. if we are constantly sinning without regard to what the bible says, our relationship with Christ will fall. we need the read to build our foundation so we will not stumble.
so if you consider the consequences of not reading, im sure you would come to the conclusion that reading the bible is a must for Christians. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and with all your soul and all your strength (Jesus' words) would include bible reading. that it showing God love.

But saying that discounts the idea that God is all-powerful and all-creating. If he indeed is omnipotent, he decided what choices you were going to make, what shoes you were going to wear, what sandwich you eat at lunch. The ideas of free-will and an all-powerful god do not mesh.

uh, you have the wrong idea of God. He knows everything, that doesnt mean that he is a control freak. he gave us free will, the ability to make choices on our own. to live for him or to not. to wear whatever we want. to eat whatever we want. he is in control if we allow him. now yes he can take control and have very very strong influences on us. but he doesnt which to force anything upon us. Gods love is not like that.

Think about it this way. Bob is in a moral dilemma; he has to decide if he's going to take his dying comatose wife off of life support, but he doesn't know what the "RIGHT" thing is to do. A Christian would say he has the freedom to make a choice. But then...people say things like "God has a plan" and "I'm in this spot for a reason"...well if this all has been planned out and every action in the universe has led up to this moment in your life by the will of God, HOW IS THAT FREE WILL? It's a stage where all the props and actors have been set for eternity.

you cant blame God for all of your problems. everything works together for good for those who love God. that was promised. Job did not sin in all of his suffering.

... read next post for continuation

You are only seperated from God when you are tricked to believe that you are seperate from God.

Fools follow fools.

That leads a person to another idea; if the Christian god exists and what I have said is true, then how does such a deity deserve any respect? He clearly creates his friends, puts them in an invisible prison cell, and lies to them, telling them they have the choice to do what they please, but if they don't they will suffer for all eternity. But HE planned out that they would not do what he said was the right thing. It's all very convoluted, and such a figure deserves no respect or adoration. It's childish what He's doing.

you cant create everything already in heaven and perfect, thats like playing a game with cheats. it doesnt mean anything, there is no value, no significance no heart in play. If you love God you are going to want him to guide your life no matter how bad things get. its that simple. you either love him or you dont. and if you dont love him, not everything will work out for good unless he has a different plan. and if things dont work out for good, there is nothing you can blame God for because he promised all things would work together for good for those who love God. also... he said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul mind and strength. period. not only if things are going well. and if you love God everything will work out for good according to his plan for your life.

if you love God you will want to let him lead your life.

Perhap's we live in a Simulated Universe. It's highly possible. With the way technology is advancing, Perhaps the real year is the year 3000, and technology is so advanced, that we cannot tell it's virtual, and we beleive we are in the year 2007. You can't tell me I'm wrong, and I can't say im right. There's no evidence for either.

sounds like someone just saw 'the matrix' for the first time... and yeah its an idea, but either way, God would still exist.

Prove to me, your god. Why do you believe.

its pretty obvious that no matter what answer you get, you are still going to be stuck in your way of thinking. you are afraid of change. you are afraid that a different idea that would change your life might be true. and you want to deny it all because of your fear. your afraid you might miss out on life by changing your ways to that of the Lords.
its simple. you arent sure, so you dont want it. and thats ok. I did my part and im no longer accountable.

You are only seperated from God when you are tricked to believe that you are seperate from God.

Fools follow fools.

according to what? according to scripture, you are 100% wrong.

Originally posted by Methuselah

You are only seperated from God when you are tricked to believe that you are seperate from God.

Fools follow fools.

according to what? according to scripture, you are 100% wrong.

According to experience... scripture is either the keys that set you free or the bars that keep you enslaved. If you are being told you are seperate from God, then it makes you a slave.

Now get back to work making my economy go around while I sit back and live off of the interest in my bank!

According to experience... scripture is either the keys that set you free or the bars that keep you enslaved. If you are being told you are seperate from God, then it makes you a slave.

why is that? because you simply didnt agree with something? I dont agree with what the bible says about tattoos... but thats not going to stop me from loving God and trying to serve him with my life. enslavement is the wrong term, if thats the way you feel, then im sorry you feel/felt that way. God calls on us to be obedient for a simple reason... he knows more than we do and knows what is best for our lives. its up to us to put our trust in His plan. just because you dont understand something, thats does not make you a slave. it doesnt make me a slave either. I serve God because I want to, I trust his plan because he knows more than I do and I know he can make my life better.

keys that set you free.. yes
bars that keep you enslaved? enslaved to what? he doesnt force you to do anything, he promises that IF you love him, everything will work together for good, and that implies that everything working together for good is not guaranteed if you do not love him as Jesus preached.

yeah, I just posted on the wrong thread. sorry, I didnt mean to make this post so short, id delete it if I knew how.

[edit on 9-8-2007 by Methuselah]

[edit on 9-8-2007 by Methuselah]

Originally posted by Methuselah
so if you consider the consequences of not reading, im sure you would come to the conclusion that reading the bible is a must for Christians. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and with all your soul and all your strength (Jesus' words) would include bible reading. that it showing God love.

See, but that's backwards. The message of Christ was to treat everything with love. If you think you need the Bible to fulfill that requirement, then you're missing the point of what Jesus was saying.

Sure, for some people the Bible will enhance faith, for others it will not. It is not a sign of love for God to read the Bible. The Christian god, I'm sure, would care less if you are read the Bible, as long as you believe in Him and follow Jesus's very basic message.

Many Christians tend to over-complicate their religion. Christ never showed favor for requirements to be a follower, other than the respect of which I have spoke so much.

Jesus was a Jew. He preached to Gentiles, but never required them to become a Jew and study or revere the Bible (Old Testament). Jesus seemed to be trying to convey that going to Heaven was a simple process that required little more than an honest change of heart and a will to love all the creations of God.

uh, you have the wrong idea of God. He knows everything, that doesnt mean that he is a control freak. he gave us free will, the ability to make choices on our own. to live for him or to not. to wear whatever we want. to eat whatever we want. he is in control if we allow him. now yes he can take control and have very very strong influences on us. but he doesnt which to force anything upon us. Gods love is not like that.

you cant blame God for all of your problems. everything works together for good for those who love God. that was promised. Job did not sin in all of his suffering.

So you're saying he didn't create everything?

For surely, if he created everything, that includes the decisions you seem to make about your life, and the apparent false sense of freedom itself.

[edit on 10-8-2007 by iceofspades]

Originally posted by Methuselah

According to experience... scripture is either the keys that set you free or the bars that keep you enslaved. If you are being told you are seperate from God, then it makes you a slave.

why is that? because you simply didnt agree with something? I dont agree with what the bible says about tattoos... but thats not going to stop me from loving God and trying to serve him with my life. enslavement is the wrong term, if thats the way you feel, then im sorry you feel/felt that way. God calls on us to be obedient for a simple reason... he knows more than we do and knows what is best for our lives. its up to us to put our trust in His plan. just because you dont understand something, thats does not make you a slave. it doesnt make me a slave either. I serve God because I want to, I trust his plan because he knows more than I do and I know he can make my life better.

keys that set you free.. yes
bars that keep you enslaved? enslaved to what? he doesnt force you to do anything, he promises that IF you love him, everything will work together for good, and that implies that everything working together for good is not guaranteed if you do not love him as Jesus preached.

Jesus never asked to be loved. That's a tactic used by churches to brainwash children.

Jesus told us that God loves us regardless. Nothing we do can buy our way into God's graces, because we are already there. This is the whole purpose of the New Testament.

Yes, when we act out of love, life is typically better. But Jesus's message is for the individual, not for the group. It's not about social control. It's not about moralism. It's about forgiveness and living in harmony with whatever is around you. "We must live from every word (creation) that comes from the mouth of God"

But when can we wake up and see everything that Jesus preached as simple common sense without a need for a heaven after death or any kind of mystical accoutrements...

We use Santa Claus to indoctrinate children into what we feel the Spirit of Christmas is. Jesus used parables to indoctrinate his followers into what he felt the spirit of God is.

He even said it himself "For you it is to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but I speak to them in parables"

It's ok to be lead to the truth, as long as you aren't forced to die for a fairy tale in the end.

Wow you people get way too serious about something that might not exist. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, don't jump down their throats about it. Chill people.

That said, now back to the OP:

Originally posted by Hexidecimal
Why do you, those that do, believe in God?

You cannot prove he exists. I know there's going to be people that say, "Well, you can't prove he dosn't either". So? I guess then I'll worship Bigfoot, The Easter Bunny, The Loch Ness monster, or any other mythical beast. You can't prove they dont exist either. "Theres no proof it does or doesn't, so it exists." I guess Wizards, Giants, heck, even Lygars exist.

Perhap's we live in a Simulated Universe. It's highly possible. With the way technology is advancing, Perhaps the real year is the year 3000, and technology is so advanced, that we cannot tell it's virtual, and we beleive we are in the year 2007. You can't tell me I'm wrong, and I can't say im right. There's no evidence for either.

As with my discussion on Shelley yates, I'm going to state the same point. Religion Sells. Someone, perhaps not even 100's of years ago, wrote the bible. They sold it to make money, as it was a good story, and people, either intentional or not, took it as a religion. There is no proof it was written when it says it was. The Bible says it was written then, but that dosn't make it right. "Scriptures written back then say it was written then." So someone primitive wrote down some ideas, and someone later in time make a book out of them. Doesn't mean it was.

Prove to me, your god. Why do you believe.

Hi there Hexidecimal,

There is a Godly reason why you don't understand.

But, we are not called to prove anything to anyone. He already proves Himself because you exist. I'll explain though you won't understand, because God has removed it from you unless you become born all over again.

But,...the invisible things of God from the creation of the world, which you are a natural creation of His (you are a created being (your here and living), the invisible things of God is understood, clearly, because you exist. So, if I deny God, I also am without excuse, though I don't for He has made himself known to me when I was 23 years old. He was found by those, in this case me, who sought me not. I wasn't looking for God, He was found by me when I wasn't looking in His Direction.

But, my friend, we are called to receive God's Blessings and be 'at rest' with Him. True Christian's won't need to argue the point, because you are living and breathing; your very existence and the creation itself makes the invisible things of God to be understood.

It's the goodness of God that saved me, and can save others as well.
Be ye reconciled to God and be glad for I am no better than you friend.
God is no respector of persons.





[edit on 8/10/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

i have one word for the question of the belief in god

"faith"

Originally posted by ArtemisFowl
i have one word for the question of the belief in god

"faith"

Good word ArtemisFowl.

Matt 5:11-12 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. KJV KJV

[edit on 8/10/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

In an infinite universe all possibilities are also infinite, so to answer your question, yes god exists...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
In an infinite universe all possibilities are also infinite, so to answer your question, yes god exists...

And by that very nuance, at the same time, God does not exist...

Because all possibilities are there in the wave equation.

Its like Light... Particle or Wave? Depends on how you look for it.

The eye of the beholder controls everything that really matters.

Originally posted by Quazga

Originally posted by Xtrozero
In an infinite universe all possibilities are also infinite, so to answer your question, yes god exists...

And by that very nuance, at the same time, God does not exist...

Because all possibilities are there in the wave equation.

Its like Light... Particle or Wave? Depends on how you look for it.

The eye of the beholder controls everything that really matters.

Today he is God and maybe in a billion years he is your drinking buddy, but the big question is what is God? Neither side of this argument can win for neither has any empirical data to challenge the other. The funny part is both sides rely on faith, not just the believers.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Quazga

Originally posted by Xtrozero
In an infinite universe all possibilities are also infinite, so to answer your question, yes god exists...

And by that very nuance, at the same time, God does not exist...

Because all possibilities are there in the wave equation.

Its like Light... Particle or Wave? Depends on how you look for it.

The eye of the beholder controls everything that really matters.

Today he is God and maybe in a billion years he is your drinking buddy, but the big question is what is God? Neither side of this argument can win for neither has any empirical data to challenge the other. The funny part is both sides rely on faith, not just the believers.

Yep! You are 100% correct sir