How can you honestly believe in God.

I believe in God. It is a matter of faith. I know God is there, always have. People that dont believe in God are always angry...lol.....Sit on a beach in Maui as the sun goes down and tell me their is no God. I did not choose to believe, was not trained to believe, I just always have.

I have one question for all of the God believers and Big Bang 'deniers' out there. (I am not trying to attack anyone but I would just like an honest answer to this question) Why, when scientists say that the Big Bang caused the universe the religious people say 'No that can't happen because what put the singularity there? or what happened before the Big Bang?. If the Scientists give an answer of 'I don't know, but I will continue looking', then the religious folks say the theory is bunk. But as well if they say 'The energy is and always was there' then the religious people (again, not all but some) go 'you can't do that! there had to be something before!'

BUT then the religious people say that God created the Universe and when asked what happened before God, they say God always was and always will be.

My problem is that you shoot down a well documented and scientifically sound theory because we say that the energy was always there, but then you base your entire belief system on the principle that something that has no beginnign and no end.

Again, I do not want to offend anybody but please tell me why when we come to the point of 'what happened before?' the religious people can say 'God does not have a beginning and that ends the discussion' but the scientific people can't say 'energy does not have a beginning that we know of, so we shall keep looking'?

And pleeeeease do not give me the "It's a question of believing and faith" because that does not solve anything or get us anywhere.

P.S. If someone wants to refute that then I would love to show you why it gets us nowhere.

To be fair manty, most scientists are just as bad as most hardcore religious people, science may as well be a religion to when it comes to the theory of creation, because they argue with religions about it and there are differing opinions within their own circles. Perhaps we are never meant to find out what created us, or how we were created, but either way, much like religions, science only comes up with theories on this front, and who are we to say the theories of religion are any less relevant than those of science (and vice versa), when neither can prove to anything like an acceptable level what really happened.


Whatever happened to people who just sit on the fence?

[edit on 3-8-2007 by mrmanuva]

Why do you want proof so badly? I mean if you really, really want to know if God exists, why not ask him to prove it?

how would you've wanted to prove Him, through miracles, through life's existence? what's need for the proof :=drunk:= everywhere, he's "everywhere.. in every man even in the smallest plant. tough not controlled he is the controlling one?.

an interesting post. and i agree whole heartedly with mr manuva(sorry if thats a misspelling) science and religeon contain the most fanatical of zealots...but what if each one on its own can never find the answer? everything must begin somewhere, god began when man became sentient. or at least thats a theory.

if time is a continuum, then there is no beginning this galaxy began when the last one died, and when this one finally burns out a new one will be born, but that still begs the question...what started it?

So if you believe God doesn't exist... I'm guessing you don't believe Satan exist? Why not kill a bunch of people if god doesn't exist?

Here is a question for those who think there is no God; Who do not believe they are a temple. How do you explain knowing the difference between what is good, and what is evil? Where does it come from? Do you think you have a conscience, then explain it, where from comes your knowing? Is it true that each of us are gods?; or is it that in his image we hold his knowlege, and having been allowed free will, knowing the difference between good and evil, we are still free to choose. Now you know you can not argue that fact, so answer this question, what is it that embues you with the knowlege, the choice, and why not choose the good? It is after all, all we are really after is it not?

[edit on 8/3/2007 by Churchmouse]

Originally posted by ZGhorus
an interesting post. and i agree whole heartedly with mr manuva(sorry if thats a misspelling) science and religeon contain the most fanatical of zealots...but what if each one on its own can never find the answer? everything must begin somewhere, god began when man became sentient. or at least thats a theory.

if time is a continuum, then there is no beginning this galaxy began when the last one died, and when this one finally burns out a new one will be born, but that still begs the question...what started it?

I have thought along the same lines. I can tell you what the native american indians called it, they called it Original Source. Christians call it God, and Christ their redeemer, because the design is so unique and elegant that the idea that it all came about by chance is so astronomically unlikely that it would be far more likely that all beginnings of life would have vanished. Yet, here we are; Still debating our origins between science and faith, as rediculous as that is, because both require faith.

Your thinkings about time are interesting and all I want to say to that is you are missing a few dimensions in your thinking. Chuck Missler did have a very interesting video presentation at one time dealing with this. He was able to make it understandable those outer dimensions by first demonstrating two dimensions. He is a very smart man, and also a very convinced christian, but he none the less uses very modern scientific methods in his presentations, made easier to understand of course, but still very elegant. I have always found time and the study of it to be very interesting, especially when you consider being outside of linear time. Now there is a real mind twister. Ever read the Penrose Diagrams?

[edit on 8/3/2007 by Churchmouse]

Originally posted by Churchmouse
Here is a question for those who think there is no God; Who do not believe they are a temple. How do you explain knowing the difference between what is good, and what is evil? Where does it come from? Do you think you have a conscience, then explain it, where from comes your knowing? Is it true that each of us are gods?; or is it that in his image we hold his knowlege, and having been allowed free will, knowing the difference between good and evil, we are still free to choose. Now you know you can not argue that fact, so answer this question, what is it that embues you with the knowlege, the choice, and why not choose the good? It is after all, all we are really after is it not?

[edit on 8/3/2007 by Churchmouse]

*cracks knuckles* hopefully i can do this justice.
i believe that every human being was good before religeon, not saying religeon makes good people bad(although some use it to pray on the vulnerable), i'm saying before we became so "civilised" we had a much simpler way of life. neaderthal(sp) man led a simple life, mate,feed,kill,repeat he didnt care about oil, money or lying to people, he ate his food, he fed his family so on so forth. since man became more civilised man has become more evil. i dont feel the need to provide examples. what religeon has given us is a reason to good instead of evil, the conscience was there already, given to us from infanthood by our parents. but, then again...whats to say your folks arent influenced by the teachings of some deity? who knows, surely not me but albert einstein once said A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.

what are the penrose thingies(that would be a resounding no). i once tried to think of time as every possible thing, not just as a continuum but also as 2 sets of linear time so that in my mind it was like a ring with a cross in the middle. the general theory is that time, will always continue, and while history can repeat itself, sometimes it takes a short cut.

Religion/God cant lose.

Theres always a limit to what can be 'proved'.

While the limit keeps moving, keeps being pushed back as more and more can scientifically explained, its a reasonable assumption we'll never know everything.

This is where God hides

God used to be the reason and explanation for EVERYTHING, but over the years weve learned stuff.
We can explain why the sun rises, so thats not something we need God for any more, we know why earthquakes happen, so we dont need an annoyed God to have caused it etc etc etc.

We can explain a lot of things these days. We have a pretty reasonable understanding of how things got to where they are, and models/theories (no doubt that'll be jumped on.... 'its just a theory!') that work right back to moments after the big bang.
But while we may be able to explain everything from 0.0000001 sec after the big bang right up until now, theres still that 1 billionth of a second for God to hide in.

Religious people cant prove god exists, but thats fine, its all about faith, they dont need to prove god exists. Excellent! That works nicely. Phew... dont need to worry about that pesky evidence stuff.

But heaven help the person who tries to suggest God isnt responsible, then every tiny little thing has to be proven without a doubt, and even then its rejected.
The fact we can explain all of the entire history of the universe to a reasonable level, for all but a fraction of a second.....thats just not good enough.



For the record, while an athiest at heart, i have no real problem with god and science coexisting.
Im somewhat comfortable with the idea that a God could exist who set the initial conditions, who set all the rules and values for how the universe works, flicked the switch, then kicked back and watched the show.

But everything else....theres no need for God.



BTW, as an aside.
Im unsure if the link has been posted, but theres some free online doco's (kind of like youtube/google video) at this site
best.online.docus.googlepages.com...

The last 3 or 4 under the religion section are the Richard Dawkins 'god delusion' docos.
Well worth a view.

Originally posted by Hexidecimal
Why do you, those that do, believe in God?
...
I'm going to state the same point. Religion Sells. Someone, perhaps not even 100's of years ago, wrote the bible. They sold it to make money, as it was a good story, and people, either intentional or not, took it as a religion.

good point religion does sell, look at the US. some states even give tax breaks to literature on religious books. I don't agree with money being a factor in a religion but money these days does equate to survival, got 2 do what ya got 2 do to stay afloat.

There is no right or wrong, and I am not diving into a sh&&tabyss cesspool of a topic, but whatevre gets you to sleep at night keep it up

*edited due to further reading of this post*

Originally posted by Churchmouse
Why do you want proof so badly? I mean if you really, really want to know if God exists, why not ask him to prove it?

that's witty

[edit on 4-8-2007 by mannapolie]

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
Religion/God cant lose.

Theres always a limit to what can be 'proved'.

While the limit keeps moving, keeps being pushed back as more and more can scientifically explained, its a reasonable assumption we'll never know everything.

This is where God hides

God used to be the reason and explanation for EVERYTHING, but over the years weve learned stuff.
We can explain why the sun rises, so thats not something we need God for any more, we know why earthquakes happen, so we dont need an annoyed God to have caused it etc etc etc.

We can explain a lot of things these days. We have a pretty reasonable understanding of how things got to where they are, and models/theories (no doubt that'll be jumped on.... 'its just a theory!') that work right back to moments after the big bang.
But while we may be able to explain everything from 0.0000001 sec after the big bang right up until now, theres still that 1 billionth of a second for God to hide in.

Religious people cant prove god exists, but thats fine, its all about faith, they dont need to prove god exists. Excellent! That works nicely. Phew... dont need to worry about that pesky evidence stuff.

But heaven help the person who tries to suggest God isnt responsible, then every tiny little thing has to be proven without a doubt, and even then its rejected.
The fact we can explain all of the entire history of the universe to a reasonable level, for all but a fraction of a second.....thats just not good enough.



For the record, while an athiest at heart, i have no real problem with god and science coexisting.
Im somewhat comfortable with the idea that a God could exist who set the initial conditions, who set all the rules and values for how the universe works, flicked the switch, then kicked back and watched the show.

But everything else....theres no need for God.



BTW, as an aside.
Im unsure if the link has been posted, but theres some free online doco's (kind of like youtube/google video) at this site
best.online.docus.googlepages.com...

The last 3 or 4 under the religion section are the Richard Dawkins 'god delusion' docos.
Well worth a view.

I am a pretty religious man, and I think science and God can co-exist.
But I couldn't have put it better myself.

Originally posted by danx

Originally posted by funky monk
Ok, so this thread is total BS considering that people have been argueing this for ages[...]

If you dont believe in him stop making a fuss about it all and get on with your life.

What is it with this objection of 'believers' to talk about religion and god with non-believers?

I dont have objection to believers talking to non believers, but I do have an objection to non believers constantly having a go at people for their belifs.

Originally posted by danx

Dialogue is an important aspect of our society, it helps us to advance and understand each other.

It's through dialogue and reflection that Man defines it's laws, principles and morals. It's not through the 'word of god'.

Do you even know what 'the word of God' is? If you have read it you wouldnt make statements like that. 'The word of God' has a lof of things in it that are helpful for life and it carries a lot of good messages that are not told to us in modern society.

Originally posted by danx

If the 'word of god' ruled the world we'd still be burning women for adultery, among other 'fun' things.

Again if you knew anything about 'The word of God' you wouldnt make that statement. The New Testiment of the bible tells husbands to tread their wifes as if they are one flesh (sorry I dont have a reference)... it doesnt say to burn them for adultery. Things like that have come from the mis reading of the bible and people taking verses out of context, which in the case of the bible should never be done.

Maybe you should get a copy of the bible and go and have a read of it:

www.biblegateway.com...

Go there and look up one of the books, You might wanna try something like John, or Mark, or Matthew. If you are into end time look at revelation.

Or if you want you can try:

bible.com...

and again look for a book in the bible to read, there are usualy list easily found on the web.

-fm

i would like to start by saying, your freedom to believe is the only freedom you really have left and i'm not going to be the person to take that away from you, however here are som choice bible phrases that i think should be brought to your attention;

Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
and my favourite contracdiction
(5) (Jesus speaking)
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you.
Matthew 10:34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

like i say it is not and will not ever be my place to give you beliefs thats your choice, and the worship of the unseen creator, when it brings out the best in you for whatever reason, surely cannot be a bad thing. however organised religeon is a bad thing. no religeon can ever set man free because religeon is slavery. perhaps one day the "god" i have pondered will come and lead us into the stars as one race, thus beginning the imperium of man...or maybe i'v been reading too many 40k novels

When it comes to the subject of God and a faith based religion that requires you to believe in an all powerful being that loves you, I'm reminded of a quote by Friedrich Nietzsche: "Hope, in reality is the worst of all evils, because it prolongs the torments of man."

What really makes me wonder....

How come when people are in need, are dying, are going to be killed or in a horrible situation. No matter what religious background they have, we some how pray. To whom? I do not know. But when we know we're going to get the boot. There we are closing our eyes, begging for another chance... why? Hmmm some how our brains and the chemicals that are secreted in that moment that create that feeling make us do that. Ask to someone or something for help.

What really makes me wonder....

How come when people are in need, are dying, are going to be killed or in a horrible situation. No matter what religious background they have, we some how pray. To whom? I do not know. But when we know we're going to get the boot. There we are closing our eyes, begging for another chance... why? Hmmm some how our brains and the chemicals that are secreted in that moment that create that feeling make us do that. Ask to someone or something for help.

thats a good point!

The thing that people dont realize is that God has been kicked out of our society, we make the world what it is today. God gave us the choice to either include Him and go by his plan for our lives (since the heart of man is full of evil by nature). or we can just deny his existence and live our lives the way we want to.

If you take a look at the world today, you will realize that God is not the focal point of our lives. if we all lived by the commandments, or at least tried our very best to live by them and tried to understand His word.... I can guarantee there would be a lot less suffering in this world. a lot less hate, killing, adultery, stealing etc.... there are a lot of people who dont care about living right, they care about other things, like power and money and such.

God created this world perfect and man messed it up. man messed it up more than once, adam messed it up and then the sons of noah and their generations mesed it up again. people ask: why did God make a world with suffering and dying?... thats like finding a car in the junkyard and asking the dealership why dodge made a junky car.
the dealership sold a perfectly new car and someone messed it up.

How can I believe in God? personally, whenever I put my complete trust and faith in Him, my life goes well and smooth. he promised in His word that all things work together for good for those who love him. I try my very best to love him and trust him with all my heart and it works. not all the time, because I dont love and trust im at times because I let my own agenda get in the way and things dont go too well when that happens.

another reason: look around in nature, understand that many things in this world work together in order to sustain life. everything was designed, its very obvious. how can God not exist?

Either God exists or he doesnt, either way, we are in trouble.

If he did exist (which I believe he does) we better find out who he is and what he wants and do what he says. the other option is hell, away from the presence of God, not cool.

if he didnt exist, we are still in trouble, we are spinning through space at a couple thousand miles per hour and NO ONE is in charge. anything goes... doesnt sound too pleasant.

I believe not just for these reasons I posted, I posted these to provoke thought more than to argue or cause conflict and offend someone.

just my opinion and thoughts. no offense intended.

I believe in God because I believe in something higher than this. And you say "you cant prove he exists" well no crap thats why you BELIEVE and have FAITH and you dont need proof.

I believe in God because I believe in something higher than this. And you say "you cant prove he exists" well no crap thats why you BELIEVE and have FAITH and you dont need proof.

Sometimes it is evident that God exists. Somethings exist in such a way that denying God would be like saying the earth doesnt either. When you put faith and works together and live a life pleasing you God, you will find that faith turns into more than just belief. it turns into fact. it all depends on what you are willing to give to God, only then will he show you his glory. you have to give him a chance to work in your life, you cant just say "ok God show me that your real...(5 minutes later)... "ok I tried God, he didnt answer me". he doesnt work like that, he wants you to believe in him.

Moses led the Israelites out of the land of Egypt and God had shown himself to them many times, more than once, more than twice... and yet they still doubted God and built a golden calf and worshiped it instead of God. Why? they werent getting what they wanted, they were getting what they needed. they complained about how God was taking care of them, God freed them from slavery, and feed them and led them... God was in control and they still didnt like his plan because they didnt know everything... the same things happen today in this world. God shows himself to someone and they still deny his existence. why? they dont live for Christ. thats what happens to me what I start to go my way instead of his way, I get frustrated and start to have doubts. I struggle because of this.
Being Christian was never said to be easy, and no one is perfect.. no one.

[edit on 5-8-2007 by Methuselah]