A conservative guy with a few guns and rifles point of view on 911.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
We need a change, revolution whether peaceful or violent, will fix things.

I agree, except that I think violence will only help if it is done in self defense. We should exhaust all means of peaceful revolution, until it becomes impossible for them to resist us without picking up arms. I would hope it wouldn't come to that, but violence is only justified if they make the first move. I agree with Martin Luther King, Jr. when he said "means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek. " Overthrowing our government by use of violence will be an example of what's called "positive freedom". Forcing our way into freedom may fix the problem temporarily, but will inevitably bring us back to tyranny.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
The first step would be to stop paying income taxes. This would stop the government's main flow of income, send a wake up call of sorts. They can't come after every US citizen.

Next or even before this would be a march on Washington...million or more person march asking for the federal government to step down and reinstate the rights of its citizens since the politicians have neglected their responsibilites.

This I definitely agree with. The problem with this is that ninety-nine percent of Americans who pay their taxes will be afraid to agree to do this, and rightfully so. Unless Americans have assurance that they will be amongst a majority performing this, they will not participate. This would, indeed, be a very noble thing to do in my opinion though, and probably very effective.

And to those who would try and argue that breaking the law is wrong no matter what, (it's not a law anyway, but...), I would quote Martin Luther King, Jr. yet again: "An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."

Originally posted by Spec01
This is a very dangerous route of thought...
Many people here seem ready to jump right into civil war to 'save' their country.

Sounds to me like a primitive reaction to the need we all have for change.
Surely we're smarter than guns?

I'm not an american (Swede) but I liked the video in the sense he was passionate about the topic and the fact that he spoke up.

In general I'm confused when it comes to talk about a horrible national id card, new world order, bans on all taxes, gun control, etc. I don't like guns (it's practical when I hunt however), I don't mind a national id card (whatever that menas, I'm guessing it would be like a swedish drivers license), I don't mind taxe to a certain degree because I believe people would otherwise only look to their own "flock".

I keep a keen eye on the presidential election and in general on the US because I've lived there, have many friends there and because I think it's a great, great place. I watched some of Ron Pauls video lately and at first I liked what he is saying but after a while, not so much.. It seems like he wants to go back to wild west and go "you over there, ou do your thing and we over here, we do our thing".. which to me is a step back because I simply don't see that as a realistic vision of the future.

This is also what confuses me about all the talk about a NWO. Of course there will be a new world order sooner or later, we're going to have to get along, all of us, if we want to stay on this planet. But power does corrupt so I'm hoping we'll manage to bring that order about together, because we want and need to. Not something we are forced into, or scared into, so that some fat rich lying facist swines can grow their pockets. But I strongly believe that in the long run, americans, swedes, chinese, etc, will equal vapor. A couple of thousand years down the line we'll all be brown, citizens of earth unite baby

I trust my goverment with my personal information, I don't mind paying taxes (although right now they are sort of ridiculous), we don't have no patriot acts, we don't have as many guns. Sometimes I wish we were a litle more like the US though in certain ways (just like I wish the US was a bit more like Sweden in certain ways when I'm there). I guess I'm trying to say that there is a middle ground.

There has to be a soloution to this other than guns. Information, debating, educating.. voting.

Ah. I'm blabbering. Good night.

[edit on 19-7-2007 by lasse]

[edit on 19-7-2007 by lasse]

The difference is that not a single cent of the TAX dollars from income taxes in the US goes to the people, it pays for interests on the national debt.
Sweden on the other hand its a totally different matter you have one of the best social system in the world and your taxes go to the right pockets.
I would be pretty pissed giving out my money to people like Bush or private institutions like the federal reserve.

Originally posted by piacenza
The difference is that not a single cent of the TAX dollars from income taxes in the US goes to the people, it pays for interests on the national debt.
Sweden on the other hand its a totally different matter you have one of the best social system in the world and your taxes go to the right pockets.
I would be pretty pissed giving out my money to people like Bush or private institutions like the federal reserve.

Yeah I hear you. I'm defintely not saying you should be happy with the situation, just that taxes, overall, doesn't have to be a bad thing if its for the people, by the people, which isn't your current situation (i've seen the pie charts, www.warresisters.org...)

First of all I wouldnt worry all that much about a National Id Card. The US Gov't cant seem to get Passports issued under the new rules in an effective time period. I side with just about everything he says-with the exception about 9-11. Please do not flame me- I just havent looked at all the "evidence"-yet.

I have owned guns since I was a kid, and understand their value in keeping my freedoms. Without guns we would have not been able to have the freedoms that we have (or had?) now- yes, this is NOT the country I grew up in- it has changed.

There is a civil war coming-but I dont think it will start out that way. I believe that it will esclate from something else.

He really breaks it down toddler-style.

That's why he's not getting answers - politicians can't answer straight questions.

Wow I like your view. I see what is going on in our WORLD, and do not like what I see, and out of everything I have seen on the internet this guy has it right on the money. I do wonder how long we will be able to have these kinds of forums before big bro stops all this. Any thoughts??? Keep the faith.

That is probabbly one of the biggest concerne in US politics right now, internet forums, Social Networks etc... They will need a way to control them, maybe a terrorist attack that will take place organized in one of those social network will do the trick.

Sorry to all you patriots, but this guy annoyed me. Watching the video took me to a level of agony only a heart attack could rival.

1. He appears with an American flag and a stockpile of weapons that would make an armoury blush. but the entire video he covers up the flag with his body, showing me where his alliegance truly lay.

2. He tries to explain how the World Trade centre buildings fell down when the arguement has gone back and forth so many times that noone can disprove the other. Im of the opinion that all the aircraft needed to do was hit and take out enough of the support and heat up the rest. Chaos, panic, disorder, and a whole lot of weight from the top of the buildings.

3. The Pentagon. im not going to call myself an expert, but a place like the pentagon would be made to be much much stronger than it looks, the planes momentum probably ground itself to pieces on a very strong wall.

4. The federal reserve thing. I dont get it, its brought in in 1913. Okay, then there is a war, the US profits and from 1919 to 1929 is suddenly one of the richest expanding economies in the world. How is this slowely but surely eroding your money to worthless paper?

5. Why was the lucitania sunk in WW1. Well, because it was trying to help a potential ally? The US was supplying britain all the way through the war, The lucitania decided to have a moment of bravado and got sunk because of it. Anyway, the US didnt have much impact on WW1. The Psychology of you joining did more than your troops on the field.

Anyway, the world had been conditioned to hate the Germans. They were the evil baby eating nun killers of the time. An American who saw that ad probably wouldnt be able to resist challenging the german fleet like that.

6. World War 2. It didnt justify what they did. uhhh you sank one of their ships and a neutrality treaty. To the japanese at the time they had a huge concept of honour. breaking a treaty like that would be incredibly damning in the eyes of a japanese soldier.

7. "in the History of the world no building has ever collapsed from a fire"

I dont even need to say anything to this one.

8. Gun rights all over the world are being taken away. And about bloody time too. i hate those godawful weapons and wished they they were never invented. The invention of the gun completely destroyed the concept of the honourable war. I have in my room a large amount of weapons. Knives, spears, swords, Gladius', tridents, etc. I would never sully their reputation by putting a gun in there.

9. "i love my gunz, and you can go to hell cause your not taking mine." im sorry, just the way he says this. its entirely alien to me. Seriously, im sure the law was originally created so each person could have the self protection they need. Does this man really need such an arsenal for self protection?

10. the only thing stopping the government from taking your rights is your guns. Hmmm, that is a view. I would actually like to think that not everyone is a barbarian and they dont do it because of, well, wanting to rule a country? Not pissing off its citizens too much?

11. "These guys are a bunch of goatherders and farmers and inbred incompetent idiots"

If you underestimate a person who is percieved as an enemy then they will defeat you. Also, a knife in the dark is better than a 1000 swords at dawn. You didnt see who you were pissing off, you thought you were invincible, you paid.

12. Terrorist organisations, they look disorganised but they know what they are doing. The problems with things such as the FBI and the CIA is that they can only work on the information they have. If the Government worked on every little tip off it got, it would be wading through so much bull# that it couldnt function.

13. Oh no! ID! again with the ID paranoia. Who cares? you have a licence dont you? You buy alcohol?! you should have ID for that anyway.

4000 maximum characters. Nowhere near enough ever.

Fine ill end it here, seriously though. this guy is annoying

I dont think an armory would blush at the weapons this guy had in his video, he had two semi auto pistols, a shotgun, and an AR15 rifle. Under our laws we have in our wonderful country, gauranteed by our second ammendment rights what he had is not illegal in this country, unless you live in Kalifornia, or a couple other unconstitutional pockets in this country! It is our country, our constitution, and if you dont agree with what our founding fathers put in place, for us to be able to preserve what every person should be able to do, live free, then butt the hell out. Most of us in this country are fed up, fed up with the idea of a one world government, fed up with the puppetmasters lurking in the shadows of our government, fed up with attempts to track our movement, fed up with our government, that we are supposed to control, prying their way into our lives. We will not be complacent, we will not be conditioned to take what our government shoves down our throat because they say it is what needs to be done. I guess most of us our "cowboys" and our country hasnt been around long enough to be "civilized", but I will be damned if I am told by my government let alone some other countries government that I cant live free. I am sick and tired, and I hope more people like this guy get sick and tired, that is the only way things are going to change. If not, if it cant change and we are pushed further towards control, towards one world government, then there is an old patriot that said it better then i can, give me liberty or give me death!

Bravo Gunner.

Another thing ATSers... Please, please, please take the time to understand what a civil war is: a civil war is when one (or more) faction within a country attempts to secede and fights with the other faction(s). What this gentleman is suggesting --- and not using violent means --- is a revolution. Not the same a a civil war. A revolution is the people, together, attempting to change or dismantle the government. There is a HUGE difference. The 'men behind the curtain' would like nothing better than to incite a civil war in this country. That would give them carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want. We, the People, need to stick together no matter what and hold THEM accountable.

This guy is the reason I'm going into politics. Why wait, go straigh to the source. Lie my ass off telling them "oh, yea I'm all for a NWO and NAU". Then betray them and lock 'em all in jail.

Freedom Liberty and Justice and all etc has its place, but really. You want brainwashing on this site? Look to the American constitution which every single American i know protects this as if it is completly true in all ways and forms.

The thing is though, you dont NEED all those guns to protect yourself. Hell, you dont need any guns to protect yourself really but im not going to go into that.

what he had is not illegal in this country

I wasnt saying it was illegal. I was saying that it seems wrong to me. Imagine where the money could go if America stopped wasting it on guns and military Technology.

then butt the hell out.

You mean like you kept out of Iraq? Apparently they are a bunch of 'stupid inbred goatherders' so why did you have to go and cram your constitution down their throats?

prying their way into our lives

You cant have a government that is completly shut off from its people. This is why the Aristocracy in Frence fell. Why the people didnt 'Eat cake'

we will not be conditioned to take what our government shoves down our throat because they say it is what needs to be done.

What if they are right, though? What if they pass a few laws which seriously need to be done? Will you oppose them out of spite?

but I will be damned if I am told by my government let alone some other countries government that I cant live free.

Do you have anything against gravity? it tells you your not allowed to float.

If not, if it cant change and we are pushed further towards control

Control is a change, you realise.

***

Anyway, America is a republic with a sole ruler, following the guidelines of laws from a time passed. The Constitution isnt the be all end all, it really isnt.

Should i follow the laws of Early modern England? Where a boy comes of age at 7 and wears a sword?

What about the political machinations of Greece? Where political opponents can actually be exciled from Greece, herself?

The constitution was laid down as a guide to freedom in a different time. A whole different world. The thing is that while American society is guided by this parchment it wont be able to evolve beyond it.

Octavius Maximus my dear friend, you are a liberal socialist.

If military tech was never put into we would not have the modern computer, as it is for the military high tech computers were made for

+ atomic energy

+ robots

And the constitution IS the be all and end all. It is what every American lives for and what he dies for. If you do not, you are not American. The more guns the merry, because no guns= more illegal activity. You sir, are an **** (cannot say that word as I got in trouble for it) And If you're British, then you have no where to speak on the constitution. Go on enjoying you're precious make believe world when the Muslim radicals, or NWO comes for you to behead/arrest you.

[edit on 20-7-2007 by Gorman91]

why is it that on this board when i oppose Americans people think im British?!

Its like in America there is "USA!!!11!, The middle east, and everywhere else"

Im an Australian and bloody proud of it. But seriously, i cant believe some of the things that come out of America.

anyway, im not a liberal Socialist. i dont care for titles like that, im a human being who has his own morals and i dont need to ascribe to some outdated political ideal.

If military tech was never put into we would not have the modern computer, as it is for the military high tech computers were made for

+ atomic energy

+ robots

Yes, good. but now we can stop. We can use the information we have in different ways and stop branching out into inventive ways of killing each other.

And the constitution IS the be all and end all. It is what every American lives for and what he dies for. If you do not, you are not American. The more guns the merry, because no guns= more illegal activity.

Except for the amount of people who get shot, you mean?

I am not American. I am glad of that fact.

When i hear guns i think of the columbine massacre, the postal worker scare, and all this myriad of other tragic events all of which seem to happen in America.

If you're British, then you have no where to speak on the constitution.

I am Aussie, i have every right as a human being to tell you that you are:

1) Pissing off the world
2) scaring us because of your constant warfare nonesense.
3) Really pissing off the world.

Go on enjoying you're precious make believe world when the Muslim radicals, or NWO comes for you to behead/arrest you.

Im going to take something from Dr Who, i always liked it. Those Muslim Radicals are one thing. They Are honest. They hate you with a passion and they have reason too. You sit in their country oppressing its people, reducing it to rubble, and set it up as a little puppet America.

you have no reason to go there. You have no reason to stay. You have no authority to set up your 'junior America' beyond the rifle point.

they dont want that, you should take the hint. Your entire America seems to be a Sham. Res Publica- latin for 'for the people'. Is your republic for the people?

Do you understand why most of the world dont trust you anymore? The only reason we do what you say is because of fear. Sometimes it seems that your idiocy in global matters can only be matched by the speed you reach for your rifles.

You say you want freedom? Well the rest of the world does too, free from the lumbering giant whos only purpose seems to be to replace his club with a bigger club.

You tell us that we cant tell you what to do, thats true. But if you believe that then dont for a second think you can ever go to war, it should be against your morals.

But it seems you want to test your weapons of mass carnage against a live foe. Who are we to stop you from killing people for the sake of science?

Oh boy, here I go again. Ok, Australian, I can show you a way to relate to our current situation. Right now in Australia, there is a movement by Muslim radicals to convert or kill Australians. This movement is small, but it's powerful and WILL grow if left alone. I hope you do not fear this, but rather, fight against them. Here, now I give you the small but growing radicals in your nation.:

video.google.com...

There is plenty more out there too. Now, this group is small, easily removable, and safe for now, but so too was the Muslim radicals of Europe until now. (*cough* French/Denmark riots *cough*)

why is it that on this board when i oppose Americans people think im British?!

Its like in America there is "USA!!!11!, The middle east, and everywhere else"

Im an Australian and bloody proud of it. But seriously, i cant believe some of the things that come out of America.

I'm glad you're Australian. You're in one of the last safe places of the world. But understand the you cannot blame the US for what a retard in office does. He started the war in the wrong place. We have justification for Afghanistan, but nothing for Iraq.

Yes, good. but now we can stop. We can use the information we have in different ways and stop branching out into inventive ways of killing each other.

Lasers, light speed energy, teleporters, fussion/fission, stun guns...: all weapons in development in the USA (don't ask how I know) and that could latter, if no war occur, be used in the civilian district.

Except for the amount of people who get shot, you mean?

I am not American. I am glad of that fact.

When i hear guns i think of the columbine massacre, the postal worker scare, and all this myriad of other tragic events all of which seem to happen in America.

You have already fallen subject to the media's first tactic: fear. You can be rest assured that the USA has it on the better side to protect kids from such violence, unfortunately, banning partially has lead to more illegal guns on the streets (if you give a kid candy and take it away, he will continually find a way to get it back until he does, and get fat)

Many of the school shootings are a result of a little small friend called drugs. It has been shown that Colombia, Virginia tech, and other mass shooting are a result of illegal drugs or drugs that are questionable (Prozak the friendly family killer). These mind-altering drugs are more or less the cause. Secondly, Americans love their guns. An American without a gun rights is like a cat without eyes: totally usless and depressed. One of the reasons the world shuns us is, well, because we're rebels. We never follow world doctrine of submission to higher authorities. We constantly think of our means to conquer the world in justice and peace, through superior fire power that is. We are unique to the world in our own radical ways. That is why we call our government corrupt and the NWO/NAU. We DO NOT like the rest of the world. We like our little chunk of Earth, and at times we like to share our way of life to others. We are an odd form of imperialistic issolationalsts. Trust me, if the people had their way, this war would have never been, we would have had Osama, and gone back to shooting virtual soldiers online.

I am Aussie, i have every right as a human being to tell you that you are:

1) Pissing off the world
2) scaring us because of your constant warfare nonesense.
3) Really pissing off the world.

Again, you just fell for the trap of the media. You fear us, yet there is nothing to fear but the other side. We are pissing off the world because we rebel against their NWO rules.

I'm going to take something from Dr Who, i always liked it. Those Muslim Radicals are one thing. They Are honest. They hate you with a passion and they have reason too. You sit in their country oppressing its people, reducing it to rubble, and set it up as a little puppet America.

you have no reason to go there. You have no reason to stay. You have no authority to set up your 'junior America' beyond the rifle point.

they don't want that, you should take the hint. Your entire America seems to be a Sham. Res Publica-latin for 'for the people'. Is your republic for the people?

Do you understand why most of the world don't trust you anymore? The only reason we do what you say is because of fear. Sometimes it seems that your idiocy in global matters can only be matched by the speed you reach for your rifles.

You say you want freedom? Well the rest of the world does too, free from the lumbering giant whos only purpose seems to be to replace his club with a bigger club.

You tell us that we cant tell you what to do, thats true. But if you believe that then don't for a second think you can ever go to war, it should be against your morals.

But it seems you want to test your weapons of mass carnage against a live foe. Who are we to stop you from killing people for the sake of science?

We like to contradict ourselves, but that is the government again. We bring liberty to those who ask of it. This time, our corrupt gov brought corrupt liberty and shoved down the throats of Iraqis. Unfortunately, now when we leave, Iran will move in and probably screw us all.

[edit on 21-7-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 21-7-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 21-7-2007 by Gorman91]

Yep, the Sheik Al-Halali. He is centered mostly around Auburn which i walk through and talk with my friends frequently. Im white as can be.

YOU have just fallen into the trap of the media. Like i have apparently done.

The thing is, though. We didnt fight against him. We did the easiest thing. We referred him to his superiors. he is allowed to stay in the country, but he is no longer a Sheik and holds no real power as far as i can recall.

I'm glad you're Australian. You're in one of the last safe places of the world. But understand the you cannot blame the US for what a retard in office does. He started the war in the wrong place. We have justification for Afghanistan, but nothing for Iraq.

What justification do you have in Afghanistan?

I can blame the US for what the retard in office does.

1. You voted him in...twice
2. If the vote was rigged, why didnt you go for your guns then?

Lasers, light speed energy, teleporters, fussion/fission, stun guns...: all weapons in development in the USA (don't ask how I know) and that could latter, if no war occur, be used in the civilian district.

Yes, why do you have to develop them as weapons?

So your saying School shootings are due to drugs and not guns? I find that hard to believe. I'd say sometimes a synthesis of the 2, maybe.

Americans love their guns. This is painfully clear to anyone, and i dont see the attraction. Seriously, its a stupid worthless weapon which has no form, grace or 'soul'. The Epitomy of the point and click interface.

You are unique to the world in your radical ways, and that is what makes you dangerous.

A society with too much freedom is a wrong society. it may sound harsh but its true. With no limitations there is no point in making laws, or even having a government.

i get annoyed because in Australia we have signs saying when we are coming up to speed cameras. Seriously, what is the point? Wankers who speed deserve to die or be put away before they kill someone who might have some worth in their life.

just like drug users, killers, rapists and all the other scum of the world.

We never follow world doctrine of submission to higher authorities.

Does this mean if the world ever tries to unite as one, youll fight against it? Why do you idiotically fight against something which can be so good if you let it happen?

We constantly think of our means to conquer the world in justice and peace, through superior fire power that is

you sound like hitler, except without the Charisma.

We DO NOT like the rest of the world.

Then leave and find your own fricking world to pollute and destroy with your petty whinings.

We like our little chunk of Earth, and at times we like to share our way of life to others

Whether they want to or not.

Trust me, if the people had their way, this war would have never been, we would have had Osama

Remmeber that it was the CIA and other agencies who trained Osama how to fight?

You wanted the world to fight more, and in doing so created the agent of your worst destruction.

its almost poetic.

You fear us, yet there is nothing to fear but the other side.

to me you are the other side. i dont want to be part of your 'Justice league alliance of the free' toss because i dont want to be dragged into your war.

You cant blame the Government for the actions of the United states (oh, even that is hypocritical). The soldiers went. They didnt even try to stand. You love war, you wanted an excuse to use your newest bombs and you got it.

You should be happy.

That's what I mean, The USA is hard to describe. We are a multiple of people in one. The effect is a nation with a brain going in different directions. There is no other nation that absorbs other nations. I cannot describe the love Americans have for Guns. I don't know why, but we just love them. The grace of going on online video games and shooting down Russians and Iraqi's adds to our love. We are indeed an odd bunch of folks. I suppose our odd behavior is from decades of abuse to our will to live our way. That is why we alike freedom. One thing is, well, we can live without laws. There will always be some laws needed, Obviously. We consider our constitution Our secondary God. I cannot explain anything though. You have to come here to understand. We will leave the world though. We are working on it very hard. The world is like playing with fire. We played with it, and now we don't like it. The gov is the only one left bothering with it. As I said, we are stuck in this position of world police. If there is a problem, the world yells at us to get involved. Once we get involved, they yell at us for being there. Once a revolution happens, the people will take back their gov and leave the world. Unfortunately, think about what will happen to the world once we leave? Iran will take Iraq, The radicals will go unstopped, and the socialistic Europeans will force the EU into a communistic state. But I honestly don't care about the world. But you see, if we leave the world to go about alone, then we will be bothered with the world blaming us. You're from Australia. So if we leave, you'll like us, but once the Chinese get to their war path, you're in their line of fire, so you'll yell at us to help you. Basically, by becoming imperialistic, we have screwed ourselves. Trust me, if we could leave, we would, but the gov has other plans.

In all, the next president will focus on integrating us into the world community, the people will resist, a civil war will start, and the world will go to hell when we are no longer there. We are screwed either way is the whole point.


[edit on 21-7-2007 by Gorman91]

You cant blame the Government for the actions of the United states (oh, even that is hypocritical). The soldiers went. They didnt even try to stand. You love war, you wanted an excuse to use your newest bombs and you got it.

We were told we were fighting terrorists. We didn't think about standing up because the gov tricked us.

And, we didn't use new bombs, we used the same crap as the first gulf war. It just didn't do as good because Bush is missing a chromosome


[edit on 21-7-2007 by Gorman91]

A few issues:

1: How many of the people posting in this thread only bothered looking at this thread because it had the word "conservative" in the title? I am willing to bet good money that half of the people here wouldn't have even bothered if it just said "Man speaks about 9/11". Which brings me to my first point; get over this bloody stupid way of thinking where your thoughts are dictated to you by political partisan terminology. It's no longer about Right or Left (as long as you aren't too far in either direction ), it's about the People getting off their arses and challenging these sleazeball politicians who seek to take over. The guy in this video even says he has been conditioned to borderline hate Liberals (gah, I hate that moronic term... so inaccurate), yet, even HE is saying that we need to look past that. Yet, how many of you will go away and link up with a "Liberal" who is just as pissed off as yourself?

I am guessing less than 20%. And I am in a generous mood today

2: Whilst I do not doubt that the USA will be on the frontline in this saga, conservative Americans need to realise, and realise FAST, that this is not just a USA thing. This is a GLOBAL issue. You think you're vexed? You have potential allies all around the globe, who have been crapped on by The System, and they've been crapped on in ways you cannot even begin to comprehend, simply because they haven't happened to you... yet. Ironically, many of the people you have been told are terrorists are just what many of you in this very thread are seeking to become; guerilla fighters. My point being, you are not alone in this, and I strongly urge you to see this as a wider issue, not just a national one.

3. I am a centre-left, pro military, neo-technologist Brit. I know guns, I know politics, I know science, and IMO, you cannot change things with just the one. I applaud those who will no doubt try to take a stand in the manner they state here, but you need to use more than one style, if you seek to change things. Please, do not ever rule out diplomacy as a tool you can use. Same way as I would urge people on my side of centre to be aware that some people at the top will never hear words, no matter how forceful.

Don't just fight hard, fight SMART.

Diplomacy should always be the first tool used, when diplomacy fails what needs to be done needs to be done. A civil war, a bloody civil war would be more damaging then helpful, therefore civil disobedience, making our voice heard, letting them know we arent taking it anymore needs to be done first, IMO.

Octavious, I am sorry but I never once stated nor implied that I believe that our government, our constitution is right for other countries, but it is right for ours, and you damn sure betcha it is the only way for this country! I have never been to Iraq, my government, the same government that I disagree with is in Iraq, not me, so lets just not even go that way. Doesnt Australia have some troops in Iraq? I guess that goes back to that whole glass house and not throwing stones deal. You live in Australia, you dont live in the united states, you see what you want about this country, you dont live in it everyday of your life, so I urge you again butt the hell do not push what your view of our way of life should be. Look back a couple hundred years ago when old King george was telling us how to live, we didnt put up with it then, and we will not put up with it now. Our life is our life, our country is our country, if I had my druthers our troops would be brought home from all over the world. I am not saying that in times of extreme need of other countries we dont lend support, but not having standing armies stationed in other peoples countries. Let me get one thing straight, I love my guns, I love to shoot my guns, I love looking at my guns, I love taking my hard earned damn money and buying a new gun. I love the way gun powder smells, I love how hot my barrell gets on my ar15 after shooting 30 rounds from high capacity magazine as fast as i can pull the trigger, and to hell with anyone that tells me that because I love that I am wrong. I also love my gas guzzling 4 wheel drive ford truck, I love having a nice cold coors on a hot afternoon, and I love having a nice satisfying dip of copenhagen. Again that is what I enjoy, yeah the truck probably isnt needed, the beer could destroy my liver, and the copenhagen could give my cancer. But it isnt the governments place to tell me I shouldnt do it because it may be bad. If you are ok with the government telling you how to live, good for you, be a sheep, I for one am not going for it. It is my life, I will live my life, raise my kids how I see fit, not how someone else sees fit. So again do not tell me what you think is right, is right for me and my country, and do not attack the constitution of my country. It is more then a piece of paper, it is the foundation of our way of life, and I would gladly give my life to ensure that my children are able to live under the same way of life I have been blessed to live all my life from that piece of parchment!