A conservative guy with a few guns and rifles point of view on 911.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Doubt it would work, someone will do something to gain an advantage, others will complain, conflict will arise, sides will be taken, civil war, government will rise from conflict and youll be exactly where you started

All this is going to happen just within my town/county of residence?

I'm not participating in others' wars. You can go do as you like.

Originally posted by gunner36
Remember however, dissent is patriotic, holding your government accountable is patriotic, questioning is patriotic.

I know what you're saying, and I agree that those are certainly better things for a nation than blind obedience, but I still question what the word "patriotism" really means.

Ah, I see my post on page 6 went either unnoticed or ignored... again, the problem with ingrained Nationalism rears its head.

You are either extremely retarded, or just looking to stir up some sh!t, probably the later of the two, either way I refer you to what I have said before, butt out! If you cant come up with anything but bashing us and our country, leave the conversation, you wont be missed.

This kind of response, compared to...

Octavius... I don't believe we need to dismantle our government at all. What we need to do is force our existing government to operate the way it was originally designed and to adhere to the precepts of the Contract between the People of the United States and its elected representatives: The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

This kind of response.

Thank you jtma508.

i get annoyed when people act stupidly. Running for you guns is acting stupid. Im sorry if you disagree, but this is true for most countries except America.

@jtma508, but my point is that its now evident that the contract between the people and their representatives doesnt do the job right, some things need to change otherwise the exact same thing that is happening to now will happen again.

The Romans had this sort of problem in their republic. Their answer was the Tribunis Plebis. or "Tribunes of the normal people" 10 of them existed (in Rome only) and their main job was that they could veto ANY law. They were like the champions of the people.

Something similar could be good, but very soon the Tribunis Plebis became corrupt aswell.

What do you think? What needs to be changed to your constitution so this same problem doesnt happen?

Well Octavius, the Constitution and Bill of Rights is, among other things, a contract between The People and our Representatives in government. Like any contract, its execution needs to be monitored --- by both parties --- to ensure that it is being followed. If one party feels that the contract is not being duly honored they are obliged to enforce it. What we, the People, have done --- through inaction --- is allow that contract to be violated over and over again and (so far) we have not acted to enforce it. That is what I believe needs to change. We, The People, need to demand adherence to and enforcement of that contract.

For far too long government has taken the posture that 'they know best'. And it's this kind of government that has given us the Savings & Loan collapse, Enron, 911, Katrina, the falling dollar, the failing economy, the wars in the Middle East, the failed War on Terror, and Katrina to name just a few. For the sake of discussion. let's assume there are no globalist conspiracies here. What we're left with is a government that is ineffective, out-of-touch, incompetent, wasteful and down-right dangerous. If you had hired a contractor to do work on your house and they performed on-par with what we've seen from our government you'd have the S.O.B. in court in a flash. Yet we let these clowns get away with it un-checked.

This isn't a problem confined to Republicans, Democrats or this Administration. It has become an entitlement to all politicians. They count on it. Take a recent example:

Murtha attempted yesterday to quell criticism of a so-called mystery $1 million earmark to establish the Center for Instrumented Critical Infrastructure, a subsidiary of Concurrent Technology Corporation (CTC), a nonprofit technology innovation center in Johnstown, Pa., that has received millions of dollars in earmarks in recent years.

DoE spokeswoman Anne Kolton said yesterday the earmark is not a program that meets the department’s “mission critical” threshold, noting it was “inconsistent” with the department’s 2008 budget.

Anti-earmark crusader Rep. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) challenged the earmark on the House floor Tuesday, asking if the “mysterious” Center for Instrumented Critical Infrastructure even existed because he and his staff couldn’t find a website for it. Flake’s challenge failed, 98-326.

In response to Flake, Rep. Pete Visclosky (D-Ind.), who chairs the spending subcommittee responsible for the project, admitted he didn’t know whether it existed.

So here is our government appropriating millions of OUR dollars for companies that they're not even sure exist. Are you kidding? And this is only one tiny example in a sea of this kind of B.S. Not long ago we laughed at the $640 toilet seats and $436 hammers. Rather than fix the problem they've upped the ante. The DHS recently announced a $4B program to produce nuclear scanners for shiopping containers that were allegedly 93% accurate. But when independently tested they were found to be only 17 - 45% accurate. You'd have better odds flipping a coin.

The point is, we have GOT to work for change. We have to put these people on notice and demand that they adhere to their oaths of office.

its quite obvious why ameria had to get involved in the two world wars.
Unfortunately he still has a lot of points.

Forget the two World Wars, thesun. Arguments can be made that those situations were a bit different. Not the least of which was that both wars were on-going when we got involved. What we're talking about here are wars driven by profit motives.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Wankers who speed deserve to die or be put away before they kill someone who might have some worth in their life.

just like drug users, killers, rapists and all the other scum of the world.

There seems to be a lot of discriminating in this thread.
British have no right to talk about us, you are idiot bla bla bla. bla.
And now insulting some of the Dutch (or basically any drug user) citizens as well (though you weren't the first to bring it up).

Drugs are legal here (some of them), guns are not (Certain weapons are, like hunting rifles on special conditions, specific knives, and some other little stuff), school shootings? We only had two as far as I know, in total, 6 people got hurt and / or killed. And that's when someone's armed and the rest is NOT. Oh, one of the shootings was done for a "reason". (One at least more understandable than ''yeah its cool to shoot people lal")

Are drugs bad? I guess, when excessively used, but I know enough people who are perfectly normal (except for when they're ''High'', lol, they're a bit too happy to be normal then) that would fit in society at least as well, if not better than you would. And with society I refer to a good one, not a mainstream discriminating society.

Now please stop the silly generalizing of drugs / drugs users / guns.

Yes, guns kill.
Yes, drugs make you go weird (sometimes).
But why? Because the user used it in the wrong manner.

That said, there's a huge difference between a drug USER, and a drug ADDICT, not to even start talking about the definition of drug, and whom you actually think should die. (Smokers for example)

Now about the topic itself.

I have to agree with him explaining this stuff really straightforward, do I agree that everyone should go all *LETS DO THIS FOR THE LAND WE'RE BORN AND RAISED IN!*? Not exactly.

If the event happens that there will be laws that prevent you from owning a gun, I don't think you should run out onto the streets guns blazing.

You should however be allowed to defend your own morals and ethics, since as I see it, the restriction of gun ownership would be a total flip in America.

Should you use violence, and become a vigilante? Only if there's no other choice.

And no, people saying *cmon, give me your gun and lets settle this the easy way* is not the point of no return.

The point of no return is when they say your life will be gone if you do not give that gun, and that a negative change is PERCEIVABLE, and I mean the ''what's to come'' NOT the events in the past that signify a ''evil change''.

If you don't like it, well then you can still always keep a rifle hidden somewhere, I know some people who always had a gun even though they're not allowed.

If you're a normal citizen and they suddenly search your whole house for weaponry, then I guess something fishy is going on (or the government itself is acting paranoid)

[edit on 24/7/07 by -0mega-]

he sure is passionate, which we need more people like that in general.

guns are bad, but, now a necessity for people to protect themselves from greater evil. I personally wish we all carried katanas and fight like REAL men ... anyone who can fight with fist and blade one on one is more of a man that someone who points and squeezes a trigger from far away, and that goes for hunting as well. I fully support his display of weapons though ... it makes a point, he has the RIGHT to have them and display them ... in fact, displaying them is far better than concealment . Don't be afraid of guns, only the people controlling them can make them do harm, just like the 2-6 ton vehicles around you during your commute around town.

Drugs are harmless, but, they make a lot of money for black projects, and enforcement career opportunities ... and jails/prisons. Imagine all the money used to combat and punish drugs (and disinfo/propoganda) going to rehabilitation to addicts, truthful education, and teaching people to be happy and secure with themselves ... including community programs (music festivals, after-school programs, etc.) Even if you are conservative, the money in the billions is already being spent, why not use it for the greater good.

The only problem I have with Ron Paul, he is more of a Libertarian, and, some things need to be regulated, such as polluting the environment, which effects us ALL. I don't want any 3-eyed fish (or since I am a vegetarian, a talking potato). I like him better than the others, so no offense towards him, I just think some regulations are a bit necessary. There are more than Clinton and Obama for dems ... try looking up Dennis Kucinich ... for a Ron Paul supporter, he is your best democratic bet. Search him on YouTube ... he wants to eliminate a lot of the stuff that has been implemented lately, and downsize government ... I believe including eliminating the Pentagon and establishing a department of peace. I think it would be great for the country to have Ron Paul (Libertarian as Republican) and Dennis Kucinich (Independant as Democrat) for our candidates. I also think we need to have a mandatory 3-party + system established ... it was never meant to be red vs. blue ... but people from all walks of life, representing their individual towns, family, and friends on a national level. At worst, I think this country should divide into separate nations and let people who agree with certain agendas move to the appropriate sub-nation

I don't really agree with the 'NWO' ... but, I guess in a way I do ... we are perversely overpopulated, and we need to all work together for the greater good of humanity and forget about borders, nationalities, colors, languages, personal lifestyles, etc. and view each other as equal beings/animals on this quite small planet (I realized how small Earth was when I learned the circumference is less than 25,000 miles; most people rack up that in a year with daily activities) ...

but, it should be done with freedom and the abolition of money. Would flipping a hamburger really be that bad if society wasn't based on greed and money? Where we got the things we want, because we all worked together as a global community? I guess that is why I call myself an idealist ... There are people who think like me out there ... all humanity is not lustful for power and control ... there is hope out there someplace. I like to argue, but peacefully, debate is something that can make us grow in thought and spirit and make life a bit more interesting and new ideas inventions come from it.

Well Octavius, the Constitution and Bill of Rights is, among other things, a contract between The People and our Representatives in government. Like any contract, its execution needs to be monitored --- by both parties --- to ensure that it is being followed. If one party feels that the contract is not being duly honored they are obliged to enforce it. What we, the People, have done --- through inaction --- is allow that contract to be violated over and over again and (so far) we have not acted to enforce it. That is what I believe needs to change. We, The People, need to demand adherence to and enforcement of that contract.

Very very good post, but the fact still lies that after a time people get lazy about these things. Should new laws be created to force the constitution to be upheld?

The thing is though, seeing the reaction on alot of threads American people are going about this all the wrong way. What would i do in this situation? I would strike. I would get every single worker to stop work and just demand answers. Take the administration to court. Getting ready to fight a civil war or a revolution shouldnt be the focus in my opinion.

There seems to be a lot of discriminating in this thread.
British have no right to talk about us, you are idiot bla bla bla. bla.
And now insulting some of the Dutch (or basically any drug user) citizens as well (though you weren't the first to bring it up).

hehhe, i was born in Amsterdam, Holland The thing is though, that drugs are illegal in alot of countries for a reason. I dont want people to die because of drugs. My Grandfather died recently due to Emphacema (or however you spell it) from smoking, and i see the effects of people who take drugs every day. I prefer people dont fall into that horrible disgusting trap.

Now please stop the silly generalizing of drugs / drugs users / guns.

Why cant i? Guns kill things, it is their purpose. They are a specific tool whos purpose isnt a good one. That may be a generalisation, but i dont see any other purpose for guns.

I own swords and armour and other things. I train how to use them, although i am biased i think there is a difference between having a sword and having a gun. A sword has a soul, it is basically an extension of the weilder. A gun sprays bullets in the direction you click. To me that is completly soulless.

but as i say, i am biased on that topic.

That said, there's a huge difference between a drug USER, and a drug ADDICT, not to even start talking about the definition of drug, and whom you actually think should die. (Smokers for example)

A Drug user regularly becomes an addict. i dont want smokers to die, as such, but you would think that by now they have heard what harm it can do to yourself and the ones around you.

[qoute]
If the event happens that there will be laws that prevent you from owning a gun, I don't think you should run out onto the streets guns blazing.

Especially since that will prove why that law was needed.

I personally wish we all carried katanas and fight like REAL men ... anyone who can fight with fist and blade one on one is more of a man that someone who points and squeezes a trigger from far away, and that goes for hunting as well.

A man of my own heart but not only katanas! Claymores, Gladius', bastar.d swords, all kinds. heheh

but, it should be done with freedom and the abolition of money. Would flipping a hamburger really be that bad if society wasn't based on greed and money? Where we got the things we want, because we all worked together as a global community? I guess that is why I call myself an idealist

Im against people flipping hamburgers because we have pride. Humankind should have done away with those sorts of menial jobs a long time ago simply because Humans shouldnt have to slave like that.

Apart from that, i agree with you.

Damn there are crazy people out there, those american gun politics, no wonder the crime levels are what they are in the states when almost anyone just turned 18 can buy a gun or a rifle, maybe not in all states, but in the most of them. But hey, i'm not american so I might be wrong, I'm from Sweden but we don't have the same problems over here.

Just my thougt on the whole thing..

By the way, are there any more Swedes at ATS?

Originally posted by observe50
I'm not into guns but haven't they been trying to get guns done away with here in the states.

I do think people have a right to have them and we can't let them take that right away. It will lead the people more toward that Nazi life they are attempting to push forward. Don't get chipped and don't do the ID card. Stand up and fight for your rights when they try to pull anything.

Stand up for what American was meant to be not what they are trying to make it, HELLo vote me in.

Do you own guns and if you do are you willing to use them or do you plan on using them if necessary ? If not are your plans to rely on those of us who would do own weapons ?

The 2nd ammendment only becomes significant to those of who own and are willing to use them if it becomes neceassary.

Whenever anyone says the word 'guns' it attracts the same, tired 'guns kill' parrots. I'm 55. I've been around guns my entire life. I own several. I've known hundreds of gun oweners over my lifetime. Not a single owner has ever killed anyone or even so much as wounded anyone. As a matter of fact, no one I know has ever even heard of anyone personally known to them ever killing or wounding anyone. So no, legal gun owners are not running around the country brandishing weapons and killing/wounding people. If you believe otherwise you've simply become yet another pawn/shill of those that would rather reduce the population to passive sheep.

Interestingly, I've also owned fire extinguishers my entire adult life and, like guns, haven't had the occasion to use them either. But should the day come that I need either, God forbid, I certainly hope I have them.

Cool video. One thing is, is he is still conditioned. He is still very new to having his eyes opened. He speaks of being conditioned to hate liberals and he STILL hates liberals even after he realizes it's conditioning. He needs to wake up a little bit more and see that it's just people and that it's govt/corps who want you to see people as a political affiliation and not just as people. It's their way of dividing and conquering. When he gets over his pedantic need to define people by labels then I would like to continue to hear what he has to say.

He is asking for an uneasy truce and choosing the lesser of two evils in his mind by siding with the so called liberals. If he remains in his mindset then even if there was a revolution he and people like him would start another revolt against themselves because of political infighting. Who would want to join arms with someone so dogmatic and open only to his views? You can see the outcome a mile away. Even if he and his band were victorious it would quickly factionalize and then you would just have several smaller armies fighting for political dominance.

Well...
That was refreshing,
He had a point about our firearm rights, and I agree with him on how much the Big G is breathing down our necks.

Originally posted by IllumUA
Damn there are crazy people out there, those american gun politics, no wonder the crime levels are what they are in the states when almost anyone just turned 18 can buy a gun or a rifle, maybe not in all states, but in the most of them.

You can do that here in Virginia and I promise you with all of my heart that our violent crime rate is much lower than the UK's. Most families probably own at least one gun, and have it somewhere in their household for personal protection.

You Swedes are just cool people. There isn't really any other reason you guys need to not shoot each other up all the time.

(On second glance I think you were being sarcastic!)



Here are some quick statistics:

World Top 10 - Countries With Highest Reported Crime Rates

Iceland 14,726.95
Sweden 13,455.08
New Zealand 12,586.64
Grenada 10,177.89
Norway 10,086.72
England & Wales 9,823.38
Denmark 9,460.38
Finland 8,697.37
Scotland 8,428.97
Canada 4,123.97

www.mapsofworld.com...

By the time you even step onto North America, you're apparently twice as safe as in the previous entry and over three times as safe as the first. And that's not the US, or even Mexico, but Canada, swinging to the left on gun control. The US is apparently safer.

[edit on 26-7-2007 by bsbray11]

Octavius Maximus,

You certainly have the right to your opinions on guns.

QUOTE
Americans love their guns. This is painfully clear to anyone, and i dont see the attraction. Seriously, its a stupid worthless weapon which has no form, grace or 'soul'. The Epitomy of the point and click interface.

You also go on in a later post to say;

QUOTE
Why cant i? Guns kill things, it is their purpose. They are a specific tool whos purpose isnt a good one. That may be a generalisation, but i dont see any other purpose for guns.

I own swords and armour and other things. I train how to use them, although i am biased i think there is a difference between having a sword and having a gun. A sword has a soul, it is basically an extension of the weilder. A gun sprays bullets in the direction you click. To me that is completly soulless.


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While I admire your manly approach to self defense it does'nt necessarily work for everyone.I'm guessing you are probably in your 30's possibly younger. I am in my 60's. I'm not looking to prove anything to anyone about how macho I am. I would guess that I have trained with my firearms at least as much as you have trained with your NOBLE weapons.


If someone attempts to rob me, attack me or invade my home my only goal is self defense. I like my chances better with a Glock than I do with swords and armour.




[edit on 26-7-2007 by duster]

[edit on 26-7-2007 by duster]

[edit on 26-7-2007 by duster]

Hey, I love it! And yes there are some people who want to organize reform. I will try to get back to you asap with a link.

I think I'm going to like it here.

Alright, he is talking about(am I hearing this right?) Edna Lane Brown?

He says look it up its everywhere... well not on google or wikipedia or most of my reliable sources...

Gotta say I feel ignorant but where's the link to this story?

If someone attempts to rob me, attack me or invade my home my only goal is self defense. I like my chances better with a Glock than I do with swords and armour.

Actually, i dont really carry that on me, i prefer my fists for anyone who tries to rob me.

Ive been held up by a guy with a gun. I disarmed him and waited till the police got there, i didnt need a weapon. Im not trying to prove how 'macho' i am, im just saying that guns are a tool to fulfil a niche that isnt needed.

Oct, I think you will never understand it because you fear guns. Guns are sort of a psudo-god for Americans. I'm afraid you will never witness a day when Americans will lay down their arms to the gov. Ever.