Let's speculate about what happened to the passengers of flight 93?

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Ultima...i will concede that it is rare for a plane to crash 30 ft into the soft soil in a field...as long as you concede it is JUST as rare for a plane to crash in the manner flight 93 did.

Well no, actually its not rare for a plane to impact the ground at a high angel of attack. Planes do fly into mountains and bury into it, and planes do crash going straight down into the ground.

The odd thing is for a plane to crash into the ground at a high angle and have the debris field so far away and an engine a distance away. Most crashes that a plane hits the ground head on or at a high angle the debris is right there around the plane, not spread miles away.

Unless they were flying the plane in a manner that overstressed said engine shortly before the crash, and it separated from the aircraft prior to impact.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Unless they were flying the plane in a manner that overstressed said engine shortly before the crash, and it separated from the aircraft prior to impact.

Well true but since we do not have any evidence of that, only the report from a passenger about an explosion and smoke which would tend to support a missile or maybe cannon fire.

By the way i left you a message on the aircraft forum on the SR-71 thread.

On the contrary. We have eyewitnesses that saw the plane inverted before diving into the ground.

I really hate to use infowars as a source, but this is the transcript of the CVR that also proves there was some maneuvering going on that could have caused the engine to separate.

10:00:22 - (Oh, Allah. Oh, Allah. Oh, gracious.)

10:00:25 - In the cockpit. If we don't, we'll die.

Another loud crash is heard.

10:00:29 - (Up, down. Up, down, in the) cockpit.

10:00:33 - (The) cockpit.

10:00:37 - (Up, down. Saeed, up, down.)

10:00:42 - Roll it.

...

10:01:08 - (Is that it? I mean, shall we pull it down?)

10:01:09 - (Yes, put it in it, and pull it down.)

...

10:01:18 - (Cut off the oxygen. Cut off the oxygen. Cut off the oxygen.)

...

10:01:59 - Shut them off.

10:02:03 - Shut them off.

10:02:14 - Go.

10:02:14 - Go.

10:02:15 - Move.

10:02:16 - Move.

10:02:17 - Turn it up.

10:02:18 - (Down, down.)

10:02:23 - (Pull it down. Pull it down.)
10:02:25 - Down. Push, push, push, push, push.

10:02:33 - (Hey. Hey. Give it to me. Give it to me.)

Repeated several times.

10:02:40 - Unintelligible.

10:03:02 - (Allah is the greatest.)

Repeated several times. Then static is heard as the plane crashes.

www.infowars.com...

And yes, here's another source verifying and adding to that transcript.

10:00:37 Up, down. Saeed, up, down.

10:00:42 Roll it.

10:00:55 Unintelligible.

10:00:59 Allah is the Greatest. Allah is the Greatest.

10:01:01 Unintelligible.

10:01:08 Is that it? I mean, shall we pull it down?

10:01:09 Yes, put it in it, and pull it down.

10:01:10 Unintelligible.

10:01:11 Saeed.

10:01:12 ... engine ...

10:01:13 Unintelligible.

911research.wtc7.net...

Notice the comment at 10:01:11 where someone says "...engine..." TO ME that says there was some problem with an engine at that point. It could be that the engine separated then and landed near the crash site.

Zaphod....great post.

Ultima...your so called passenger that had reported an explosion or a bomb was debunked....scroll up this thread a little. I posted all the info in that.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
On the contrary. We have eyewitnesses that saw the plane inverted before diving into the ground.

Just because the plane was inverted does not mean that would make the engine shear off.

Ultima...have you had a chance to look at the facts regarding the witness that stated there was white smoke? And an explosion?

Assuming the passengers did go to a NASA facility ... they could have been eliminated, or taken anywhere. The world, as small as it is, still has a lot of space without communication or transportation methods suited for the average u.s.american. But really, anything is possible.

As far as a few pages back ... all the theories being separate ways of the three incidents happening, well, that makes perfect sense. If you are going to conspire to do something, why would you follow a cookie cutter approach for each incident that is quite different?

For a tightly built and populated city scenario, you are going to want controlled demolition with efficiency and a catalyst to make sense of it all. Loading the three buildings with thermite, so most of your reactions don't need a loud 'explosive' quality, and a couple explosions for major components that can be more easily dismissed. This weakens the entire struction so it collapses properly to limit collateral damage. The planes themselves being the catalyst to allow the preset devices to activate. The planes could have been flown in by remote as they do for some plane flight/crash testing. Molten metal weeks/months after they fell, doesn't happen with jet fuel, it does with thermite. Why wouldn't just the top of the towers crumble then? since it was only so many stories that burned near the top of the thing. I would assume the center structure of the tower would have been standing as well as the outer frame at least 10 or 20 stories high and the tower would have fell out and over to a certain extent. This building was not a house of cards, it was thick steel. the bottom should have had enough strength to slow down and resist, eventually making it fall to the side. Even demolished building go awry and topple to the side at times. It was a perfect execution made by planes you say. I don't buy that.

For the Pentagon, it is a different situation. How come there are not thousands of witnesses from the roads and interstates that saw the plane, or videos of it? I know that the last time I passed through D.C., we had cameras of both types and took pictures and video. I know if I saw and heard a plane that low, I would have watched it, and taped it, and most definitely not forgotten about it ... as well as went to the media about what I saw. A predator or a missle fired from close by, it can go un-noticed for the most part from size and manueverability alone. Lack of evidence of a large jet on so many fronts makes it undeniable to me ... no holes from the wings nor are they outside of the building, poles surrounding still standing, much less flame than the towers themselves for being a jet loaded with fuel. A passenger jet just doesn't make sense for that place. The wings, bodies, and all else decintegrated into thin air as rice paper does in the mouth you say ... I don't buy it.

The '93' crater ... I haven't lived very long on this planet, but I remember quite a few plane crashes on land during my time, videos, pictures ... that did not look like a passenger plane crash I have ever had the unfortunate priveledge of watching coverage of. Lack of fire again. Where is all the burnt ground and burning jet fuel? If after the fireball of the towers there was enough to supposedly bring it down, then there had to be enough to cause some sort of fire, correct? But everthing and everyone was consumed by the fire before it hit the ground, and the impact destroyed the rest of it into thin air you say ... no thank you, I have had enough cheese for one day.

Logically, none of it makes sense. I don't believe the conspiracy because I am easily converted, but because when you examine all the evidence from all sides and think about it. Which one makes more sense? A group of Islamic extremists who can't fly a small plane hijacked jumbo jets and made stunt-like turns and then miraculously are alive after the crash. Copperfield, Whodini, and Blaine have nothing on them.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Just because the plane was inverted does not mean that would make the engine shear off.

And if you read further, I backed it up with more, including hijackers saying "roll it" and "up, up, up" and other comments that appear to be about maneuvering the plane in a manner it wasn't meant to be.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Ultima...have you had a chance to look at the facts regarding the witness that stated there was white smoke? And an explosion?

Was the explosion big enough to throw the engine 2,000 feet away , and spread the debris into 2 sites miles away ?

Originally posted by Zaphod58
And if you read further, I backed it up with more, including hijackers saying "roll it" and "up, up, up" and other comments that appear to be about maneuvering the plane in a manner it wasn't meant to be.

What about the pilot of the FED-EX plane that had an attempted hijacking he also made several maneuvers that the plane was not meant to do to keep the hijacker out of the cockpit and still landed the plane.

[edit on 24-6-2007 by ULTIMA1]

There WAS no explosion apparently. The brother and operator confirm that the words explosion and smoke were NEVER said.

Yes there was, and there was also American 587 that went into a flat spin and both engines snapped off almost immediately. Just because they perform the maneuvers doesn't mean the engines WILL snap off, just that it's more likely. I'll bet that when they inspected those engines on the FedEx plane they found structural damage to the engine mounts.

Thanks ...

Funny how people ignore the facts. If it doesnt fit their agenda....then they dont want to hear it!

Well no, actually its not rare for a plane to impact the ground at a high angel of attack. Planes do fly into mountains and bury into it, and planes do crash going straight down into the ground.

If a plane does a nose dive it can bury itself or at least parts. I helped pick up a military plane and the engine was buried 20 feet down.

For the engine and debris spread over two miles that has me baffled. Something else must have happen within the plane.

Originally posted by Keebie


For the engine and debris spread over two miles that has me baffled. Something else must have happen within the plane.

The Engine was found 900 ft away...or 2,000 ft away. Depending on the story you want to believe.

The debris that was found a few miles away was that of paper and other LIGHT materials. (the wind was approx 11 MPH at the time of impact.)

All this talk and yet the believers in the official story cannot explain this:

The engines, made of titanium and other very hard metals, weigh about six (6) TONS each. When they impact, no matter the velocity, they can only have so much mass compressed together. Even if they WERE flattened to a few feet long, WHERE ARE THEY? WHY doesn't the govt. just show us a hanger or warehouse with all of the recovered parts assembled LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO IN ALL PLANE CRASHES ?

WHY have the parts never been compared with the serial numbers of the ones on the planes? WHY was there such a small debris field at the scene? WHY was the local coroner quoted as saying that ' there were no bodies ' to collect or verify? WHY was this incident treated totally differently than ANY other investigation in aviation history?

WHY are so many people so desperate to believe the lie? Maybe because if they accept the truth, it would scare them and challenge their notions of their own safety and security in this nation. My European friends are staggered to hear that so many Americans still cling to the belief that the official story has ANY merit at all; it makes us look like idiots when we defend the indefensible.

There are TOO may ' anomalies ' to believe that this is a simple,' took back the cockpit and crashed the plane ' nonsense. WAY too many. Mathematically the odds of hundreds of anomalies occurring in the same event is so staggering that to believe such odds could hit is foolish to the extreme.

BUt back to the 6 ton ( each ) engines; it would be a simple matter to film the removal process and show the world that indeed there was an entire jetliner buried under the ground ( for the first time in aviation history!) that only needed to be dug out. You mean that they did not set up even ONE video camera to record the scene and removal? That in itself is a screaming example of a coverup.

The whole 9-11 scenario is chocked full of impossible claims from the govt. and so many holes in their story that a first year detective would see the glaring inconsistencies and look further. But remember, the investigators were NOT allowed to do more than shut up and agree with the official story. Look at every aspect of this event and we see that there are HUNDREDS of suspicious, incongruous and inexplicable ' anomalies ' in force that day and that means that anyone who blindly accepts the official story is denying reality and the evidence.

One can spin it and excuse it and wish it were not so, but the FACTS are such that it cannot be denied that the entire 9-11 event was planned, staged and carried out by a group of highly placed and committed insiders in our government and others in the intelligence sector of other nations.

If one adds up ALL of the anomalies, it makes it clear that we are being led down the primrose path by the lying administration of Cheney ( yeah and little Georgie too) who ask us to believe the impossible..over and over and over. just because a crime is monstrous does NOT mean that it is unlikely. The defenders of the lie say that it is all ' coincidence ' and that is just remarkable to me; no one of any intelligence could possible accept such odds and not question who is running the show and what their actions prove about their guilt. denial may feel good, but only until denial no longer matters and the ' evil ones ' meaning our ' leaders ' are openly oblivious to the truth and care not about us or this nation. It is happening NOW.

Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
The '93' crater ... I haven't lived very long on this planet, but I remember quite a few plane crashes on land during my time, videos, pictures ... that did not look like a passenger plane crash I have ever had the unfortunate priveledge of watching coverage of. Lack of fire again. Where is all the burnt ground and burning jet fuel? If after the fireball of the towers there was enough to supposedly bring it down, then there had to be enough to cause some sort of fire, correct? But everthing and everyone was consumed by the fire before it hit the ground, and the impact destroyed the rest of it into thin air you say ... no thank you, I have had enough cheese for one day.

An added question from me is why wasn't there any video news coverage of these supposed debris fields that existed 900 or 2000 ft. away from the crater?

The funny thing about 9/11 is that even the worst lawyer in the world could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt in court that the official story is a steaming pile.

And yes, if whoever did this is willing to kill thousands, including law enforcement officers and firefighters, then a few hundred other nobodies are nothing. I'm sure the CIA or military intelligence or NSA has more than a few psycho operatives and military officers who will kill anyone at anytime if given the order. To think otherwise is being naive.

Peace

Edit: To the person above, I gave you a star. Excellent, well thought out post.

[edit on 24-6-2007 by Dr Love]

Originally posted by eyewitness86
All this talk and yet the believers in the official story cannot explain this:

The engines, made of titanium and other very hard metals, weigh about six (6) TONS each. When they impact, no matter the velocity, they can only have so much mass compressed together. Even if they WERE flattened to a few feet long, WHERE ARE THEY? WHY doesn't the govt. just show us a hanger or warehouse with all of the recovered parts assembled LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO IN ALL PLANE CRASHES ?

WHY have the parts never been compared with the serial numbers of the ones on the planes? WHY was there such a small debris field at the scene? WHY was the local coroner quoted as saying that ' there were no bodies ' to collect or verify? WHY was this incident treated totally differently than ANY other investigation in aviation history?

I had to chop this quote down a wee bit.

First of all, I don't like to respond to posts that offer nothing but... "It's impossible"... "the governmnet did it" .. BLAH BLAH BLAH...With NOTHING to back it up with!!!

You sir have done nothing as far as research goes to make the post you have. EVERYTHING you posted has been explained here, in the 911 report, the nist report, by witnesses, and on MANY other 911 websites.

Sorry your post offers nothing new. Just the same old questions that have been answered OVER and OVER again.

Originally posted by Dr Love
An added question from me is why wasn't there any video news coverage of these supposed debris fields that existed 900 or 2000 ft. away from the crater?

The funny thing about 9/11 is that even the worst lawyer in the world could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt in court that the official story is a steaming pile.

And yes, if whoever did this is willing to kill thousands, including law enforcement officers and firefighters, then a few hundred other nobodies are nothing. I'm sure the CIA or military intelligence or NSA has more than a few psycho operatives and military officers who will kill anyone at anytime if given the order. To think otherwise is being naive.

Dr. Love... yesterday you posted that you did not watch all of Loose change. You didn't like the way it was set up. You appeared to have an open mind. Funny how quickly that changed. It's apparent that your mind has been made up as to 911 being a massive cover up by the United States Government. I will ask you what I ask all other Truthers. Where is your proof?

There actually was a trial..are you aware of it? A terrorist was found guilty. MAybe you can go research that.... and go through ALL the evidence...it is all publice knowledge and contains GRAPHIC pictures. Included are pictures of debris fields from the crash in shanksville, and plane parts. If you have a hard time locating this, please feel free to contact me U2U.. i will give you all the information. I highly doubt you will ask though. The EVIDENCE does not fit your agenda.

www.washingtonpost.com...

By William M. Arkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Monday, Feb. 1, 1999

"We already know that seeing isn't necessarily believing," says Dan Kuehl, "now I guess hearing isn't either."

Video and photo manipulation has already raised profound questions of authenticity for the journalistic world. With audio joining the mix, it is not only journalists but also privacy advocates and the conspiracy-minded who will no doubt ponder the worrisome mischief that lurks in the not too distant future.

By taking just a 10-minute digital recording of Steiner's voice, scientist George Papcun is able, in near real time, to clone speech patterns and develop an accurate facsimile. Steiner was so impressed, he asked for a copy of the tape.

Steiner was hardly the first or last victim to be spoofed by Papcun's team members. To refine their method, they took various high quality recordings of generals and experimented with creating fake statements. One of the most memorable is Colin Powell stating "I am being treated well by my captors."

"Once you can take any kind of information and reduce it into ones and zeros, you can do some pretty interesting things," says Daniel T. Kuehl, chairman of the Information Operations department of the National Defense University in Washington, the military's school for information warfare.

Pentagon planners started to discuss digital morphing after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990. Covert operators kicked around the idea of creating a computer-faked videotape of Saddam Hussein crying or showing other such manly weaknesses, or in some sexually compromising situation. The nascent plan was for the tapes to be flooded into Iraq and the Arab world.

The Gulf War hologram story might be dismissed were it not the case that washingtonpost.com has learned that a super secret program was established in 1994 to pursue the very technology for PSYOPS application. The "Holographic Projector" is described in a classified Air Force document as a system to "project information power from space ... for special operations deception missions."

Real time voice synthesis into ANY language (Quick time required, upper right hand of page, examples include a song and a Clinton speech): VOXONIC

Osama Bin Laden tapes are FAKE. Telephone calls from planes are FAKE. Confessions from tortured people are FAKE. The 'War on Terror' is FAKE.

[edit on 6/24/2007 by Spoodily]