Concerning the "Antichrist"...

If everyone knows it, then it cannot be the right way, as the bible says it will be a “great deception” which will come over folks so they are deceived.

Hi defcon, and this is exactly what is happening, people question if Christ even exsisted at all, there is all out war on people who are Christians.

Originally posted by iandavis
The following is why Revelation is not and was not written for us in the 21st Century.........

As the “Final Judgment”, the “Return of Christ”, and the “Destruction of the World” have not happened yet, believing that nothing in Revelations, or other prophecy, applies to us, is not correct either.

Originally posted by iandavis
Q: Who was it written to? A: The seven churches in Asia that no longer exist today.

The important factor about these churches is that each resided in an area which contained a temple used for Emperor Worship. So we can already see that this somehow relates to Rome, and the Emperors already at the beginning of the book.

Originally posted by iandavis
2) Q: When was the events in Revelation to take place? A: Shortly after the book was written.

They were to begin after the fall of Jerusalem and continue on until the “Final Judgment”. Much of what John was writing about did happen shortly after, some before, and some is yet to come. You must also understand that John had to cover up much of what he was writing as he was already in hot water with Rome, and writing prophecy about how evil they were was only going to make them come back and destroy what he had written.

Originally posted by iandavis
6,000 years to the time of Adam and Eve, the nearly 2000 years since Revelation

Its actually 5000BC, and we are now in the 2000’s, that is 7000 years, or seven days in prophetic language. So I believe everything should be complete before this biblical “day” is finished. I would imagine before 2100, but it could go right up until 2999. Nowhere is it written that prophecy must happen quickly, from Gods perspective Christ only left here 2 days ago.

Originally posted by iandavis
When John writes the time is near, that obviously does not mean 2000 years later.

John is writing on prophecy given to him from Gods perspective, so to him it would appear to happen much faster then it would to us. Also much of the persecution which John was referring to, and many of the characters existed already in his time, as that related to Rome, the Pontifex, and their persecution of the Christens. Christ is the only person who mentions that this would all happen in a generation, and as I stated above that whole part of the “Little apocalypse” related to the “when will this happen (the temple destroyed) and what are the sings of an end of an age (end of the age of the Jews)”, portion of the question asked by the apostles.

Originally posted by iandavis
Daniel 8:26 "And the vision of the evenings and mornings which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future."

Daniel 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time"

Some of Daniels prophecy’s relate to the “end of an age”, or the fall of Jerusalem, and that was “many days” in the future from when it was written. Some of Daniels prophecies relate to the way that the “world system” would progress up until the “end of the world”, and those would not be apparent to someone until they where looking back on them as history. As they say “hindsight is 20/20”, thus the prophecies would be locked up until the future, when we can look back at them and compare them to history and see what matches up.

Originally posted by iandavis
Yet Daniel's prophecies were fulfilled with the earthly ministry of Jesus only 600 years later.

Some, but not all of them. The battle of Armageddon has not happened as described in the book of Daniel, the feet of the statue did not exist until after Rome, the rough goat was in reference to Greece and Alexander the great, and there are others as well. So to say they were all completed in 70AD is not accurate either.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
The seven vials of wrath for instance, did any of that come to pass during the time the book of Revelations was written?
Or is it happening now?
the seven last plagues

I am not sure if I personally accept this or not; however, there is a school of thought that relates to Historicism, which teaches that Revelations is Cyclic. Meaning it is written in three repetitions, each from a different perspective. The Seven seals, the Seven Trumps, and the Seven Bowls, all relate to the same events each from a different perspective.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast
and every living soul died in the sea,
what is happening with our seas now?

"And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire"
What about global warming?

You can bet that all the things occurring now are signs of the coming “destruction of the world”. Funny part is that many of them seem to be the result of mans greed on the Earth. What is to be the big sin that man commits in the “end times”? Isn’t it supposed to be Idolatry, specifically in the aspect of being “worldly”? With this in mind I find it interesting that almost everyone one of the problems we are currently facing relate back to corporate greed, and exploitation of the planet and other countries in the name of worldliness, profit, and convenience.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Hi defcon, and this is exactly what is happening, people question if Christ even exsisted at all, there is all out war on people who are Christians.

There is defiantly an agenda against all the teachings of the bible, and against Christians. The funniest part is that most everything that Christianity is accused of, as a whole, are all things that were done by Rome specifically. The same guys who made up the other two schools of prophecy, and the same guys who the whole US system of government and law is based on.

Originally posted by iandavis

Jesus is essentially repeating in Luke 21 what he said in Mathew 24.

ABSOLUTELY NOT......The difference is that Luke 21 talks of the temple in the disciples days. Matthew 24 talks of a temple yet to be built.

as shown in Matthew 24:9 Then they shall deliver you up...........WHEN, after the beginning of sorrows. What does Luke say...........BUT BEFORE ALL THESE.......WHEN...........before the beginning of sorrows.

Originally posted by iandavis

But the key is WHO HE IS SPEAKING TO! He is speaking to his disciples. He is giving THEM warning about things to occur in THEIR lifetimes. This is clear. Jesus would not use language like this to communicate to a generation 2000 years in the future.

I agree he is talking to the disciples and he says BUT BEFORE the beginning of sorrows in Luke 21 and he says AFTER the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. We are talking about two different temples which agrees with Daniel and Revelation.

Originally posted by iandavis

And Nero did declare himself a god and he did many times.

All Pharaohs in Egypt and most of the Roman Emperors were considered god on earth and the worship of the SUN was the religion.......sun = Lucifer.

Originally posted by iandavis
He did destroyed the temple.

Nero did not destroy the temple. He commited suicide in 68 AD and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Originally posted by iandavis
He didn't physically show up at the temple and single handedly destroy it himself, he had his army do it. This is historical fact.

As I said.....Nero did not destroy the temple........it is not a fact

And for Nero to be the Antichrist he would have to enter the Jewish temple and declare himself God. Futher he would have to confirm a covenant with Israel which he did not..........Where is the covenant he confirmed and when did he enter the temple and declare himself God........TO THE JEWS AND THE WORLD.

Nero cannot be the Antichrist.......Just more driving round pegs into square holes.

And to top it off.........the Antichrist comes to the Jews and the world as a MAN OF PEACE..........it did not happen..........round pegs.......square holes.

Originally posted by iandavis

The following is why Revelation is not and was not written for us in the 21st Century.........

1) Q: Who was it written to? A: The seven churches in Asia that no longer exist today.

Rev 1:10-11 "I (John the Apostle) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

You are correct for first three chapters.......then what does the trumpet say? It says come up hither and I will show you things which must be hereafter. So you are in error.

Revelation: 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Originally posted by iandavis
2) Q: When was the events in Revelation to take place? A: Shortly after the book was written.

Rev 1:1"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw."

When John writes the time is near, that obviously does not mean 2000 years later.

Paul says we have knowledge in part. John did get a Revelation and he also heard Jesus say the following verse(below). The apostles interpreted that to mean that Christ would return before the death of John. John being an old man believed the time was near.........KNOWLEDGE IN PART.

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me

Originally posted by iandavis
We also have this problem:

Daniel 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time"

• Daniel was a prophet who wrote about 600 BC
• The angel told Daniel to "seal up" the prophecy about the coming of the Messiah. The "end of time" figuratively meaning the end of the age of ancient jewish society.
• Yet Daniel's prophecies were fulfilled with the earthly ministry of Jesus only 600 years later.
If Daniel was told seal up the prophecy for only a 600 year period, you would absolutely think that John would be told to seal the book for what is to be a period of almost two thousand years. Wouldn’t you? Two thousand years is a third of human history. I know people say that a thousand years is like a blink of an eye to God, but I do not believe man would be lead to believe that 2000 years is a short period of time.

To me this is a clear slam dunk that Revelation is not about the 21st century.

There is absolutely no problem here other than you are driving round peg in a square hole.

It says seal the book up to the time of the end. Then you say they are talking about ....figuratively meaning the end of the age of ancient jewish society.
There is no figuratively meaning etc. etc. READ WHAT IT SAYS........Until the end of time.


AND what happens at the time of the end? Men run to and fro and knowledge greartly increases. Did you see any of that 600 years after Daniel wrote the book.......or are you seeing it now.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Your interpretation has many, many holes..........and that's just the beginning.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The difference is that Luke 21 talks of the temple in the disciples days. Matthew 24 talks of a temple yet to be built.

There is no biblical precedence for Christ to switch gears like that. Nowhere else in prophecy does this occur, so why should it here? The only reason that you have been taught this is that Futurism requires it to jive with their interpretation of Daniel pointing toward a future temple, treaty, and antichrist.

I am also not buying that you did not learn this stuff from somewhere, no one reads this prophecy for themselves and come up with futurism.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
shown in Matthew 24:9 Then they shall deliver you up

Yes, the disciples were delivered up to persecution, and most of them to death. This is well documented in Acts of the Apostles. They were delivered up to the Sanhedrin, and to the Romans. Later after the fall of Jerusalem, the persecution at the hands of Rome continued through several more emperors, Nero being the worst of them all. Later, after the station of the Pontifex Maximus became the Holy Pontiff, the greatest of all the Christian persecutions took place. It is said that if the records of the Inquisitors were ever made public that the number of non-Catholic Christians alone, not to even mention members of other religions, who were tortured to death would absolutely dwarf the number of Jews killed by Nazi Germany.

So the disciples where delivered up within a generation of the time when Christ said this, and other Christians later as well.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
AFTER the beginning of sorrows

I take it you have never read josephus. You really need to read the “Wars of the Jews”, about the fall of Jerusalem. If you had, you would be shocked at how many prophecies seem to point at the exact events surrounding the siege of the city. A sword shaped comet was over the city for a year, a great multitude of flying chariots seen over the city, there were earthquakes, The water there all ran with blood from the slain, the Abomination of Desolation was in the Temple, the temple was used for Emperor worship, they were sieged with catapults causing huge rocks to fall from the sky, there was a famine so bad in the city that people were resorting to cannibalism, and more. I suggest you either read the book yourself, or take a look at this website where the author breaks it up nice and neatly for you:
Wars of the Jews
Part about the comet, earthquake, and chariots

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
We are talking about two different temples which agrees with Daniel and Revelation.

The temple in Revelations either relates to Gods Temple in Heaven, or to his current Church on earth. Either way though it is not a physical temple, it’s a symbolic one.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
sun = Lucifer.

No, Venus = Lucifer…
I applaud your effort at trying to explain this, and you have obviously studied Futurism, and the bible expensively; however, what you need to do some studying on is history. Even I am not as much of an expert of history as I wish I were, but it really helped me to understand the bible much better once I started reading some other things relating to it. You cannot study the bible in a vacuum, and the old rabbis used to train students in all sorts of history besides the Old Testament so they understood details of what the Old Testament was referring too.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Nero did not destroy the temple.

Titus destroyed the temple. Nero was the largest persecutor of Christians, who he blamed for the Fire of Rome.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
And for Nero to be the Antichrist he would have to enter the Jewish temple and declare himself God. Futher he would have to confirm a covenant with Israel which he did not

Emperors not only held the title of Caesar, but many of them also held a title “Pontifex Maximus”, the head of all the churches of Rome. While many Historicists believe that the “Little Horn”, and the “son of perdition” refer to the later Popes, I believe that it refers to anyone who held that title since the beginning. The title was abandoned for a bit as some Christian Emperors and early Bishops of Rome refused to accept it; its being of pagan origins. That was until one of the most corrupt Popes in history accepted it and applied it to himself, and all the Bishops of Rome. Eventually these Pontiffs became just about as powerful and corrupt as any Caesar who ever existed.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Futher he would have to confirm a covenant with Israel which he did not.

The only covenant that was ever made with Israel or ever needs to be made with Israel to complete prophecy is Gods covenant with them to send a Messiah. The covenant your speaking of only exists in a fantasy written by a Jesuit monk in the 1500’s, maybe he was an ancestor of George Lucas. Futurism actually does go along very nicely with Star Wars if you look at it...

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
the Antichrist comes to the Jews and the world as a MAN OF PEACE

Show me this verse in the bible?
It's not there, but rather it is assumed by futurists, as he must be a man of peace to make the supposed treaty. There is a square peg in a round hole if I ever saw one.

Originally posted by defcon5
There is no biblical precedence for Christ to switch gears like that.

I don't believe Jesus did shift gears. He told the disciples that the Holy Spirit would cause them to remember what to write down. The books were written down later. Matthew was led to write about the end times temple and Luke wrote about the Jewish temple. There are other differences also and yet both are about the end times.

Originally posted by defcon5

I am also not buying that you did not learn this stuff from somewhere, no one reads this prophecy for themselves and come up with futurism.

You seem to be heavily discounting the HS.
Why not try reading exactly what it says. I believe what I believe because I can tear holes all through the other beliefs. They are not scriptural. I can't tear any holes in the pre trib rapture. Most people confuse the trump of God for the Angel blowing the trump. There is a multitude of reasons why this is wrong.
I have read no books concerning the rapture etc

Originally posted by defcon5
I take it you have never read josephus. You really need to read the “Wars of the Jews”, about the fall of Jerusalem.

You are correct, I have never read Josephus. I would probably enjoy it. I suggest you study the Jewish Feasts and then you would understand why there will be a pre trib rapture.

Originally posted by defcon5
Either way though it is not a physical temple, it’s a symbolic one.

You see no treaties and you see no temple. If you merely watched the news you would hear talk of the treaty and temple that will be built. I don't see how you can possibly look past it. Not to mention it is scriptural.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
No, Venus = Lucifer…

Actually Lucifer is both Venus as the false Morning Star of Isaiah 14 and the sun as Baal the sun god. Lucifer is also Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury, Neptune

Originally posted by defcon5
I applaud your effort at trying to explain this, and you have obviously studied Futurism, and the bible expensively;

I have read the Bible but I have never read a book or studied any mans views on the rapture, or end times etc. (other than running across an article on the Net)

I have read articles on history.....but no books. (Except High school, college etc.)

Originally posted by defcon5
The only covenant that was ever made with Israel or ever needs to be made with Israel to complete prophecy is Gods covenant with them to send a Messiah. The covenant your speaking of only exists in a fantasy written by a Jesuit monk in the 1500’s, maybe he was an ancestor of George Lucas. Futurism actually does go along very nicely with Star Wars if you look at it...

the Antichrist comes to the Jews and the world as a MAN OF PEACEShow me this verse in the bible?
It's not there, but rather it is assumed by futurists, as he must be a man of peace to make the supposed treaty. There is a square peg in a round hole if I ever saw one.

I highly suggest that you go back and take the time to read the seventy weeks of Daniel that I linked earlier. It is a must to understand the final week of the treaty.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish F68 the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built F69 again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant F70 with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy F63 people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace F64 shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

I think its very possible that the "Antichrist" is just going to be the person or persons who can make some real changes to the world. Like making people realise that they dont need religion.
Anyone who could do that would surely be considered the antichrist wouldnt they?

The 70 Weeks of Daniel 9 fulfilled in first century!

Hey if the early 1st Century Christians realized it, that's good engough for me!

-160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Daniel 9:24-27 ; The 'Seventy Weeks' of Daniel) "And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfillment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place." (Miscellanies 1:21)

-160AD Tertullian "Vespasian, in the first year of his empire, subdues the Jews in war; and there are made lii years, vi months. For he reigned xi years. And thus, in the day of their storming, the Jews fulfilled the lxx hebdomads predicted in Daniel ." (An Answer to the Jews 8.) (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel)
200AD Hippolytus of Rome (70 weeks) "21. For this reason, then, the angel says to Daniel, "Seal the words, for the vision is until the end of the time." But to Christ it was not said "seal," but "loose" the things bound of old; in order that, by His grace, we might know the will of the Father, and believe upon Him whom He has sent for the salvation of men, Jesus our Lord. He says, therefore, "They shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall; "which in reality took place. For the people returned and built the city, and the temple, and the wall round about. Then he says: "After threescore and two weeks the times will be fulfilled, and one week will make a covenant with many; and in the midst (half) of the week sacrifice and oblation will be removed, and in the temple will be the abomination of desolations." 22. For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, 179 viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations. These things being thus recounted, the prophet again describes another vision to us. For he had no other care save to be accurately instructed in all things that are to be, and to prove himself an instructor in such." (The interpretation by Hippolytus, (bishop) of Rome, of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar

Sourced from:www.bible.ca...

What the early Christians knew about Daniel (con't)

-200AD Hippolytus of Rome (On The "Iron Kingdom" of Daniel 7) "Speak with me, O blessed Daniel. Give me full assurance, I beseech thee. Thou dost prophesy concerning the lioness in Babylon; for thou wast a captive there. Thou hast unfolded the future regarding the bear; for thou wast still in the world, and didst see the things come to pass. Then thou speakest to me of the leopard; and whence canst thou know this, for thou art already gone to thy rest? Who instructed thee to announce these things, but He who formed thee in (from ) thy mother's womb? That is God, thou sayest. Thou hast spoken indeed, and that not falsely. The leopard has arisen; the he-goat is come; he hath broken his horns in pieces; he hath stamped upon him with his feet. He has been exalted by his fall; (the) four horns have come up from under that one. Rejoice, blessed Daniel! thou hast not been in error: all these things have come to pass. … "After this again thou hast told me of the beast dreadful and terrible. 'It had iron teeth and claws of brass: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it.' Already the iron rules; already it subdues and breaks all in pieces; already it brings all the unwilling into subjection; already we see these things ourselves. Now we glorify God, being instructed by thee." (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. V, p. 210, pars. 32, 33. )

-200AD Hippolytus of Rome (70 weeks) 43. With respect, then, to the particular judgment in the torments that are to come upon it in the last times by the hand of the tyrants who shall arise then, the clearest statement has been given in these passages. But it becomes us further diligently to examine and set forth the period at which these things shall come to pass, and how the little horn shall spring up in their midst. For when the legs of iron have issued in the feet and toes, according to the similitude of the image and that of the terrible beast, as has been shown in the above, (then shall be the time) when the iron and the clay shall be mingled together. Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, "And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease." By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1, 260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations. (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. V, p. 210, pars. 43.)
225AD Origen "The weeks of years, also, which the prophet Daniel had predicted, extending to the leadership of Christ, have been fulfilled" (Principles, 4:1:5). (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel)

-403AD Sulpcius Severus (On Daniel's Seventy Weeks) "But from the restoration of the temple to its destruction, which was completed by Titus under Vespasian, when Augustus was consul, there was a period of four hundred and eighty-three years. That was formerly predicted by Daniel, who announced that from the restoration of the temple to its overthrow there would elapse seventy and nine weeks. Now, from the date of the captivity of the Jews until the time of the restoration of the city, there were two hundred and sixty years."

Sourced from: www.bible.ca

No, only 69 of the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. Only 483 years of the 490 years have been fulfilled. One week remains as prophecied.

Israel was scattered after the death of “Messiah the Prince” fulfilling God’s promise if Israel turned away. The number of years have been determined at 490 with 483 years being fulfilled at the death of Messiah. Seven years have yet to be fulfilled, to accomplish the seven events of Daniel 9:24.

www.truthnet.org...

Too many holes in you views. Where is the covenant that was prophesied. Where is the sacrifice stopped IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK?
Your Antichrist........Nero was already dead.

Only 69 weeks have been fulfilled.........read my link

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
There may have been a few communication problems because I found your reply a little mystifying. I'll try and reply as best as I can.

To be honest, now I can't understand the basis for any of your questions. The Cathers were great folks, but they didn't have the answer. Gnostics, the same thing. Nothing I've said anywhere is based on these beliefs systems.

I never said anything about fallen angels, and God making deals with them, except in responce to what I thought you were trying to pass off as something you believed.

The spirit beings who created this material manifestation, trapped other spirits, within this matrix of squares and sharp angles. They built these containment shells from the sub-atomic level up. I wouldn't call them fallen, just motivated by something other than what they perceived as serving vs. rulling. Satan was just one of these.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
I knew I wouldn't get response to Mayan Long count question. And it was by far the most important question.

Most important to whom?

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
What happens when the calender ends?

A new one begins, with a different reality.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
Don't tell me to look this up because nobody knows(except for you, maybe, and the ancient mayans)

What do you mean, nobody knows. It was written, because somebody knew. And they're still here. Not in the physical sense, but here in other forms spiritually. This is not Revelations, or the 2000 computer thing. This is a callender - a measurement of time. And according to it, the great cycle of the sun is coming to an end. Is this bad? Of course not, that is, unless you're one of the dark brothers who put this physical universe into motion - because it's times up, for time.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
Does the rescue mission cease?

Yes. In fact, the window is closing rapidly.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
If so what happens to those who don't get rescued? Damned for all eternity?

The only fair thing. Those who gave up their light to darkness, and those who reject God, just cease to exist. And Not as punishment.

Let's say your trapped on a sinking, desert island with a bunch of people. A rescue ship comes along. Who get's rescued? Those who get on the ship. Those who decide to stay on the island, of their own free will, die on the island. Is this punishment? No, it's a choice, because for some reason, going down with the island seemed like the better decission.

Originally posted by SatansQue

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
There may have been a few communication problems because I found your reply a little mystifying. I'll try and reply as best as I can.

To be honest, now I can't understand the basis for any of your questions. The Cathers were great folks, but they didn't have the answer. Gnostics, the same thing. Nothing I've said anywhere is based on these beliefs systems.

I never said anything about fallen angels, and God making deals with them, except in responce to what I thought you were trying to pass off as something you believed.

The spirit beings who created this material manifestation, trapped other spirits, within this matrix of squares and sharp angles. They built these containment shells from the sub-atomic level up. I wouldn't call them fallen, just motivated by something other than what they perceived as serving vs. rulling. Satan was just one of these.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
I knew I wouldn't get response to Mayan Long count question. And it was by far the most important question.

Most important to whom?

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
What happens when the calender ends?

A new one begins, with a different reality.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
Don't tell me to look this up because nobody knows(except for you, maybe, and the ancient mayans)

What do you mean, nobody knows? It was written, because somebody knew, and they're still here. Not in the physical sense, but here in other forms spiritually. This is not Revelations, or the 2000 computer thing. This is a callender - a measurement of time. And according to it, the great cycle of the sun is coming to an end. Is this bad? Of course not, that is, unless you're one of the dark brothers who put this physical universe into motion - because it's times up, for time.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
Does the rescue mission cease?

Yes. In fact, the window is closing rapidly.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
If so what happens to those who don't get rescued? Damned for all eternity?

The only fair thing. Those who gave up their light to darkness, and those who reject God, just cease to exist. And Not as punishment.

Let's say your trapped on a sinking, desert island with a bunch of people. A rescue ship comes along. Who get's rescued? Those who get on the ship. Those who decide to stay on the island, of their own free will, die on the island. Is this punishment? No, it's a choice, because for some reason, going down with the island seemed like the better decission.

Sorry, a mistaken entry.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
There may have been a few communication problems because I found your reply a little mystifying. I'll try and reply as best as I can.

To be honest, now I can't understand the basis for any of your questions. The Cathers were great folks, but they didn't have the answer. Gnostics, the same thing. Nothing I've said anywhere is based on these beliefs systems.

I never said anything about fallen angels, and God making deals with them, except in responce to what I thought you were trying to pass off as something you believed.

The spirit beings who created this material manifestation, trapped other spirits, within this matrix of squares and sharp angles. They built these containment shells from the sub-atomic level up. I wouldn't call them fallen, just motivated by something other than what they perceived as serving vs. rulling. Satan was just one of these.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
I knew I wouldn't get response to Mayan Long count question. And it was by far the most important question.

Most important to whom?

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
What happens when the calender ends?

A new one begins, with a different reality.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
Don't tell me to look this up because nobody knows(except for you, maybe, and the ancient mayans)

What do you mean, nobody knows? It was written, because somebody knew, and they're still here. Not in the physical sense, but here in other forms spiritually. This is not Revelations, or the 2000 computer thing. This is a callender - a measurement of time. And according to it, the great cycle of the sun is coming to an end. Is this bad? Of course not, that is, unless you're one of the dark brothers who put this physical universe into motion - because it's times up, for time.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
Does the rescue mission cease?

Yes. In fact, the window is closing rapidly.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
If so what happens to those who don't get rescued? Damned for all eternity?

The only fair thing. Those who gave up their light to darkness, and those who reject God, just cease to exist. And Not as punishment.

Let's say your trapped on a sinking, desert island with a bunch of people. A rescue ship comes along. Who get's rescued? Those who get on the ship. Those who decide to stay on the island, of their own free will, die on the island. Is this punishment? No, it's a choice, because for some reason, going down with the island seemed like the better decission.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
There may have been a few communication problems because I found your reply a little mystifying. I'll try and reply as best as I can.

To be honest, now I can't understand the basis for any of your questions. The Cathers were great folks, but they didn't have the answer. Gnostics, the same thing. Nothing I've said anywhere is based on these beliefs systems.

I never said anything about fallen angels, and God making deals with them, except in responce to what I thought you were trying to pass off as something you believed.

The spirit beings who created this material manifestation, trapped other spirits, within this matrix of squares and sharp angles. They built these containment shells from the sub-atomic level up. I wouldn't call them fallen, just motivated by something other than what they perceived as serving vs. rulling. Satan was just one of these.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
I knew I wouldn't get response to Mayan Long count question. And it was by far the most important question.

Most important to whom?

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
What happens when the calender ends?

A new one begins, with a different reality.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
Don't tell me to look this up because nobody knows(except for you, maybe, and the ancient mayans)

What do you mean, nobody knows? It was written, because somebody knew, and they're still here. Not in the physical sense, but here in other forms spiritually. This is not Revelations, or the 2000 computer thing. This is a callender - a measurement of time. And according to it, the great cycle of the sun is coming to an end. Is this bad? Of course not, that is, unless you're one of the dark brothers who put this physical universe into motion - because it's times up, for time.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
Does the rescue mission cease?

Yes. In fact, the window is closing rapidly.

Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
If so what happens to those who don't get rescued? Damned for all eternity?

The only fair thing. Those who gave up their light to darkness, and those who reject God, just cease to exist. And Not as punishment.

Let's say your trapped on a sinking, desert island with a bunch of people. A rescue ship comes along. Who get's rescued? Those who get on the ship. Those who decide to stay on the island, of their own free will, die on the island. Is this punishment? No, it's a choice, because for some reason, going down with the island seemed like the better decission.

Umm... there are about three different discussions going on here... Let's try to stay in the same ballpark, I'm having troubles keeping up with all the different arcs.

But I thought SatansQue had a rather compelling answer to my question, although I am still left wondering where or how such detailed information was obtained? Honeslty, as he would likely admit, it's alot to swallow. There is alot about 'Gaia' and 'Light' and alot of stuff that sounds right out of a fantasy novel, honestly... too bad for me that I like fantasy, perhaps too much.

What's this about the Mayan callendar now? Honestly, I haven't looked into the whole shebang about this, but what is the big deal? How many ancient callendars have reached their end-day by now? I mean, surely, there have been ancient societies that only calculated only so far ahead, and that last day happened to be... last tuesday or something. Hey, look at that... I digress as well.

But still, let's not turn this into a bible study here. It was really my intention to point out that a well meaning world leader would be villified by Christianity, Islam, etc., as a whole. I was just trying to get people to look at the fact that, because of what people have interpreted to be truth, a truly better world might be lost. It seems alot like this whole antichrist idea might be used as a sort of weapon by organized Christian religion if a leader rose up with ideas that threatened to reduce the power of said religion.

Continue the discussion, it's very interesting for the most part. Try not to ramble or preach, it's been going well so far. Thanks for everyone's input, it makes for a good read.

SatansQue: Let's hear some more about the origin of your beliefs mate. I am interested to know where they came from, or how you come to such conclusions. You are very specific... I wonder where it comes from???

[edit on 2-6-2007 by SeekerOfAUTMN]

[edit on 2-6-2007 by SeekerOfAUTMN]

[edit on 2-6-2007 by SeekerOfAUTMN]

Great thread. The anti-christ will have to be an inmpressive politician that isn't a politician. Someone that most people will be afraid of the knowledge possessed. Maybe an alien.

Originally posted by SeekerOfAUTMN
But I thought SatansQue had a rather compelling answer to my question, although I am still left wondering where or how such detailed information was obtained?

SeekerOfAUTMN,

Where was my detailed information obtained? Now Lookie here!! Think about it - if you believe in the Bible... LOL!! then defference must be paid to the realization that Satan was present when all the shenanegans, and evil in the world was manifested. In your Bible Job has Satan a-walkin' up into heaven, and talking to God like he's one of the boys. God even gives Satan permission to completely turn the poor man's life upside down, inside out, and every which a-way. Even killed Job's cat!

Also, according to your bible, King David commits adultery, knocks this chick up, and then has her husband killed, by putting him on the front line in a battle. Adultery, and murder... wow, you just gotta know that Satan was all up in King David's business.

Count how many times your bible has Satan in the picture. So Satan, according to the Bible, knows God, the truth, and all the angels. And was there when life was breathed into man/woman.

So even if you don't believe I'm really Satan, what you have to ask yourself is, how could a jabonie like me, take on an identity with such negative associations, and still be up in here defending the true Christ, and exposing the truth about the antichrist? LOL!!

Because it is impossible to understand this universe, God, heaven, Hell, antichrist, boogymen, saints and demons from reading books. Men write books based on their fears, or to program you. When God wants to speak to you, He/She don't need no friggen' book, or a building, other than the one you walk around in 24/7.

Think about it: The first refracting telescope was invented in the late 1500s, yet most of the stars have had names for thousands of years.

Originally posted by SeekerOfAUTMN
But still, let's not turn this into a bible study here.

A bible in the hands of a human, is like a car in the hands of a monkey, during rush hour traffic.

Nothing good can come of it. The bible is the original WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION! because it has nothing... absolutely nothing, to do with God, but rather it is the HANDBOOK for the destabilization of the faith of humankind, through the promotion of the false religion of Satan.

Originally posted by SeekerOfAUTMN
It seems alot like this whole antichrist idea might be used as a sort of weapon by organized Christian religion...

Holy mackerel!!!

Spot on!!! While the entire Christian world looks around for the boogyman who will step up and proclaim, "Yeah baby, I'm da antichrist!" little do they realize, like I said before, that the true antichrist is a-waiting in the mirror, fo those who reject the true teachings of the Christ.

The true teaching of the Christ; Love God with all your heart, soul and mind, love your neighbor as YOURSELF. It's all about the love, getting off this rock, and nothing else.

The Christ is here on the planet as we speak, in many forms. But the christian will not recognized the Christ, the same way the leaders of the Jews didn't recognized the Messiah in the Christ Jesus.

Example: The last openly active Christ on earth, lived her entire life dedicated to serving the poorest of the poor, in one of the worst places on earth during the time of her service to God. She saw Jesus in everyone, and treated them as such.

Even though she was a Catholic, she was very uncatholic in her tireless service to Matthew 22:37-40, and nothing else. From craddle to grave, 24/7.

Born Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu, Teresa set the example once again, of what it means to follow the true Christ teachings.

Many Christians consider Teresa a failure, because she was Catholic, and because she wasn't about converting Hindis to Christianity. But Christ Teresa manifested the Holy Spirit of God. So she was, the living Word of God.