Concerning the "Antichrist"...

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
No, the 70th week of Daniel has not occurred and will happen when the peace treaty has been signed. I'd hope you're familiar with the roadmap to peace that is constantly in the news.

Besides some Jesuit monk telling us that the 70th week happens in the future, so his boss would not lose too many more followers, give me one good reason why it has not happened yet? Is there any other biblical prophetic precedence for a specific prophecy to be split up that way?

There is no other prophecy split like that, and there is no good reason to believe that this one should be. Again Rome is trying to pull a disappearing act so that the two remaining beasts can continue with "few the wiser" of who they really are. This way they can also pull the wool over the eyes of a lot of folks as to what the “Mark” truly is until after many half hearted Christians, who thought they could outsmart God and live as they pleased until they saw some treaty being signed, receive it.

“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist…” - Baudelaire

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I prefer this text. Notice that it also says the temple mount is not under Jewish control.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This does not necessarily mean the physical temple in Jerusalem, but rather the Church of God. It refers to the Church being trod upon by the Pontifex Maximus for 42 months or 1260 prophetic years. Does this happen?
Yes, it did happen, and it again relates to Rome, this was in the link I provided above, which you obviously did not bother to read, but I will be nice enough to go through the effort of re-explaining this again.

John Wesley had the 1260 years or 42 months all figured out to such a great extent that he quite accidentally had a prediction come true and did not even realize it. This is what happens though when you actually understand these prophecies, as they will occur and all you have to do is understand them, then whammo, “you too can amaze friends and family”. I actually had this happen to me as well, I new something would pass because it was prophesied to pass, no one else thought it would, but in the end I should have taken bets on it with high odds. Of course I was not being some great prophet or anything, it was simply that I understood exactly what was going on, and how that fell in the realm of the prophecies which God wrote for us.
Anyway this is part of what John Wesley wrote in his commentary on Revelations, specifically chapter 13, around 1755.

“Out of the earth — Out of Asia. But he is not yet come, though he cannot be far off for he is to appear at the end of the forty-two months of the first beast.” – Wesley

Wesley had his time exactly correct, what he did not expect though was a little known area of the world, which was just being founded, would become the last great Superpower Empire of the end times. The United States is the last, and most well hidden (thanks to Futurists and Rome) definition of the final Beast on the planet in the end times, the beast who will enforce the “Mark”.

Wesley was able to come to this conclusion because he understood that the “Little Horn” was a reference to the office of the Pontiff, and the 4th beast of Daniel and 1st beast of Revelations are Rome. So, with this information in hand lets see when the Pope first became the person with the “Power to persecute the Saints”

In 534AD Roman Emperor Justinian compiled Roman Law into a codex, known as Corpus Juris Civilis, you may have heard of it as its still the basis for Roman Common Law, thus European Law, and ultimately United States Law. We can still access that law and read it today, here is a link to part of it:THE CODE OF OUR LORD THE MOST SACRED EMPEROR JUSTINIAN. What this code in fact does is establishes the Pontiff as the “head of all churches”, and grants him the authority to prosecute heretics. The pope basically then gradually went on to become the most powerful man in the world over the next thousand years, overseeing such things as the crusades, and the inquisitions, while having a bishop at the elbow of every king and queen in Europe ensuring his will was done at all times.

The Emperor Justinian, who was living in the East in Constantinople, in the sixth century published a similar decree. These proclamations did not create the office of the Pope but from the sixth century there was such advancement of power and prestige that from that time the title of "Pope" began to fit the one who was Bishop of Rome - D'Aubigne, Book I, p. 81.

This went on until :

talian campaign of 1796-97
Days after his marriage, Bonaparte took command of the French "Army of Italy" on 27 March 1796, leading it on a successful invasion of Italy. At the Lodi, he gained the nickname of "The Little Corporal" (le petit caporal), a term reflecting his camaraderie with his soldiers, many of whom he knew by name. He drove the Austrians out of Lombardy and defeated the army of the Papal States. Because Pope Pius VI had protested the execution of Louis XVI, France retaliated by annexing two small papal territories. Bonaparte ignored the Directory's order to march on Rome and dethrone the Pope. It was not until the next year that General Berthier captured Rome and took Pius VI prisoner on 20 February. The pope died of illness while in captivity. In early 1797, Bonaparte led his army into Austria and forced that power to sue for peace. The resulting Treaty of Campo Formio gave France control of most of northern Italy, along with the Low Countries and Rhineland, but a secret clause promised Venice to Austria. Bonaparte then marched on Venice and forced its surrender, ending over 1,000 years of independence. Later in 1797, Bonaparte organized many of the French dominated territories in Italy into the Cisalpine Republic.

At this point the powers of the Pope were stripped from him under this law:

Bill No. 8 of 15 Feb 1798
"In consequence, every other temporal authority emanating from the old government of the Pope, is suppressed, and it shall no more exercise any function...."

So here is the deadly wound of the First beast of Revelations, and it happened within years of the rise of the second beast as Wesley predicted, which occurred in 1776. Now if we take the date for the beginning of this entire mess and we subtract it from the ending date of 1798, we get:
Drum roll please….
1798
-534
------
1264 years or days / 30 = 42 months

Considering that the date of 534 might be off by a year or two, that is a far more accurate prediction then Israel becoming a power again. However we also know that the first beast would not die from its wounds and would continue on, but in a different capacity allowing the Second beast its time to roar. This also is true as Rome still exists to this very day, as does the station of the Pontifex Maximus. Making Rome the: “Beast that was, and is not, yet is”

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Again here we see an allusion to the famous “Seven Hills of Rome”, which further proves what this is really all about.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
No, the deception spoken or is the belief that aliens have invaded the earth when the rapture happens. Can you not see the lie in place right now.....alien abductions?????

There is no proof that there is anything to Alien abductions which cannot be explained through other means including sleep paralysis. With this in mind lets try and keep it to things which can actually be proven without getting into strange topics which have no backing either scripturally, or scientifically.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I guess I believe the things I do because that's what the Word says. I don't need to drive round pegs in square holes. I say just read what it says.

I don’t see how you can accuse me of driving round pegs into square holes when you’re the one talking about aliens, the unscriptural rapture, a nonexistent treaty, and removing the last week of a 70 week prophecy to the future from no apparently good reason other then to make it fit what someone wants you to believe. It appears to me that I am the one reading it for what it is, and you’re the one having to modify the context to make it fit the theories of futurism. I suggest actually going out and learning about history, studying all the schools or prophecy, and understanding the background of where these interpretations come from as this is the correct way to learn what prophecy is really about.
I also recommend reading less of guys like Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, and that whole group. Let me just say that I am immediately leery of anyone who charges money for a book/tape/DVD which could be used to save someone, especially since the “end is coming right now anyway” and they should have no use for worldly money. I can understand if they need to charge a bit for the production and mailing charges, but these guys are sometimes charging upwards of $100 for something that cost them about $2 to manufacture and distribute. Why don’t I see them on a sight like this discussing these important things with folks for free?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
o, it is a prophecy about the destruction of the Jewish temple fulfilled in 70 AD

Which was a part of the siege of Jerusalem, and the desolation of the city. You can read about it in the Wars of the Jews by josephus.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
No........the latter times did not begin until Israel was restored as a nation. That is part of the parable of the Fig Tree. Israel is the Fig Tree.

Since you did not read any of my links above again, here is another one for you about Matthew:

A brief commentary on Matthew 24, 25
First, as it is claimed, Israel is not always represented by a fig tree in Scripture. Most often, Israel is represented by an olive tree. Second, when we compare Luke 21:29, (the parallel passage) we see that Jesus in the same parable, includes not only the "fig tree," but also "all the trees." Clearly this passage is a parable and not an allegory. An allegory uses a "this stands for this" symbolism. A parable merely illustrates a point. The fig tree isn't meant to stand for anything, not Israel, not any country, not any thing. "When you see these things happening know that the end (the destruction of Jerusalem) is near." Note that this event already occurred in 70 AD, less than one generation from the time of Christ's prediction (about 30 to 31 AD). Thus the destruction of Jerusalem occurred exactly one generation from Jesus' prophecy. It is not a future event.

This author breaks it down into three questions, I personally linked the destruction of the temple and the end of an age, but either way this writer makes a very good point on learning all the schools of prophecy:

Thus a sound interpretation of Matthew 24 includes elements of Preterism (events happening before 70 AD pertaining to the disciples' first question: vv. 4-28); Historicism (the gospel advancing in the world as a sign of Christ's coming v. 31); pertaining to the disciples' second question, and both Idealism and Futurism to interpret Jesus' answer to the disciples' third question (vv. 36-51 to the end of chapter 25).
Today's futurists make the same mistake as the disciples by assuming that they were just asking one question, when these events are unrelated from a historical viewpoint.

I say I am a historicist, because I am about 99% historicist, but I am sure that reading the other schools, if they have not at least influenced me to some degree, they have broadened my understanding of prophecy immensely.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
No, point is Matthew 24 talks about the beginning of sorrows. After these sorrows there is talk of a temple and the things that will happen. Luke 21 talks about these sorrows also and then says BUT BEFORE ALL OF THESE. Luke is talking about the destruction of the Jewish temple and the things that will happen in that age.

Again as stated above the disciples asked him more then one question, so its not all about a single set of events during a seven year period.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yeah, this is the last trump, judgment day. With this in mind, how can you believe that you’re not twisting around scriptures to believe in things it clearly does not say when the text plainly reads it’s the final trump.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The trump of God is the voice of God and has nothing to do with the trumpets of Revelation. You might check Exodus 20 and again we can see the trump or voice of God in Rev. 4.

The source of the sound does not change that it is the final judgment.


[edit on 5/28/2007 by defcon5]

Those whom tend to read the revelations more clearly come to discover that the Antichrist is not a man insomuch as the image of the beast is. It is the image that is given authority and also given the number of a man. And then that image being implanted 'so to speak' in the right hand or the forhead is merely meant in the same way as earlier Bible passages that claim that there are those who have received the mark of God. The right hand and the forhead referring to that wich one does and thinketh most. What is the one thing that most people's live revolve around? Currency! Each currency having an image of man on it and to be more precise, we are just short of having 666 types of known currency world wide. I guess you might say that the invention of just a few more currency methods would bring on a new awaikening.

Then there is the accounting servailance terminal that is supposed to manage the world currency around the year 2020 when it goes into full effect (if schedule permits it). This being the 'Brussels Electronic Accounting Servailance Terminal'. Oddly enough it's initials are B.E.A.S.T.

Then again. Possibly just another of the many speculations. If it werent for J Titor tipping off the government about the upcoming civil war between US and Its hidden terrorist cells made up of the many alternative US Citizens... this BEAST would have already been in effect by now and in full effect by 2016.

But you didnt hear it from me.


---ex-military intelligence (and typo master)

Originally posted by defcon5
Most likely you are being taught prophecy from some book such as those written by John Hagee, Hal Lindsey, Pat Robertson, or that crowed, or you're being taught this by some pastor or bible study of an independent or fundamentalist church. Either way your are deadly incorrect, totally in error, and just flat out wrong in your ascertation of where my school of interpretation comes from, and where yours comes from.

Sorry I have not read any of their books or listented to their tapes about end times. The Word is sufficient for instruction. Just read what it says.

Originally posted by defcon5
BTW, you do not need to proceed on with telling me anymore of how you interpret prophecy, as I understand Futurism better then you obviously do. I have a sneaking suspicion that you don’t even know that what you believe is called futurism.

That's right, when the Word is put to the test your views fall apart. I saw how you handled the 42 months or 3.5 years in Revelations.

Originally posted by defcon5
Here is why your remarks above are so laughable:

As to the rest, I know Futurism better then you do anyway, so there is not much more point in you trying to teach it to me.

If you want me to explain why its incorrect in areas I will be happy to do so, but there is no point in debating it as I have studied it too.

What it comes down to is I understand why you are not interested in debating because your views don't stand up to scripture. You think you know, but.......... You think that that last trump has something to do with the trumpets being blown in Revelation when it is actually the voice of God, the same trump the was heard on the mountain at the giving of the law. That trump is the voice of God announcing the time that no one knows but Him. But since you know everything already.........

Nice how your view dodges the chronology of Matthew 24. THEN....THEN......THEN


Since you said that you would be happy to explain my error. Please explain this verse to me. And when you see these events BEGIN to come to pass look up.............look up for what........the coming of the Antichrist?

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He spared Noah, he spared Lot..........so now he is going to change his M.O.?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
That's right, when the Word is put to the test your views fall apart. I saw how you handled the 42 months or 3.5 years in Revelations.

Which is exactly the correct way to handle the 42 months. The 42 months relates to the 1260 days, its does not relate to the 3.5 years, other then Futurists have to make it do that, so it matches with their treaty non-sense.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
What it comes down to is I understand why you are not interested in debating because your views don't stand up to scripture.

Yes they do, and much more exactly then the Futurists ones do. Man, are you in denial or what? I sure hope you’re not trapped in some cult that is brainwashing you or something, they tend toward futurism as they are all independent churches, and you seem like a nice fellow. I literally watched a friend of mine, who was once one of the smartest men I ever met, start telling me totally illogical crap like “His church was the original church descended from John the Baptists himself”, when his church did not even exist prior to 1980’something. It was almost like they sucked his brain out his ear, and filled the empty spot with Jello. After all there’s always room for Jello…

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Nice how your view dodges the chronology of Matthew 24. THEN....THEN......THEN

I have given you the links to read the proper chronology of Matthew and you keep ignoring them, so what’s the point. In Matthew, how many questions did the apostils ask Christ?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Since you said that you would be happy to explain my error. Please explain this verse to me. And when you see these events BEGIN to come to pass look up.............look up for what........the coming of the Antichrist?

No, its Christ. I don’t get your point, none of this goes against anything I have said so far.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He spared Noah, he spared Lot..........so now he is going to change his M.O.?

God is unchanging; it is an attribute of God. However, God will set a time to stop giving folks certain opportunities, such as he did with Israel.

I did enjoy the bit were you totally passed over how you did not know that Futurism comes from the RCC, what no comment on that one?

Originally posted by defcon5
Which is exactly the correct way to handle the 42 months. The 42 months relates to the 1260 days, its does not relate to the 3.5 years, other then Futurists have to make it do that, so it matches with their treaty non-sense.

Well let's see 12 months in a year times 3.5 years equals 42 months equals 1260 days by my calculations. That would be the 3.5 years that your view has round pegged and already used.........and yet here it is in Revelation. Of course I have also shown where the temple is mentioned in Rev 11 with the outer court given to the Gentiles.

Originally posted by defcon5
Yes they do, and much more exactly then the Futurists ones do. Man, are you in denial or what?

No, its Christ. I don’t get your point, none of this goes against anything I have said so far.

No, no denial. You don't get my point? It's pretty simple. Jesus said when you see these things BEGIN to come to pass look up, your redemption draweth nigh. He didn't say AFTER these things come to pass, look up. Like I said, your views just don't stand up to scripture.

And as far as Matthew 24 goes.......again your views don't stand up to scripture. Yes there was two questions asked but the answer came in a chronological order. THEN.......THEN.........THEN.........THEN.

Originally posted by defcon5
I did enjoy the bit were you totally passed over how you did not know that Futurism comes from the RCC, what no comment on that one?

Quite the contrary. I knew where the view really came from and it was Paul. Since in your incorrect historical view, the Romans have already defiled the temple.........could you please name the Antichrist or son of perdition as he is the one who defiles the temple.

2 Thessalonians 21 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Further........you will find that the position of the Catholic Church includes no rapture..........as I'm sure you know.

Further.......the Catholic Church is not the Antichrist as you have shown. They are Mystery Babylon of Revelation 17.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Sun Matrix]

Look! Look sun matrix and defcon 5 have hijacked this thread. I want a reply from Satansque who had previously hijacked this thread.

My belly is turning.

Originally posted by SeekerOfAUTMN

At this point, I think alot of people would be quick to jump on the bandwagon against anyone in power who displayed certain traits or initiated certain laws/plans, regardless of wether or not they were good or helpful changes. I think it could be possible that a good leader, who truly wants to make this world a better place for everyone, would be labeled as the"Antichrist".

Please educate me on this subject, and offer your opinions too. But please don't turn this into a Christianity recruitment/conversion/bashing topic.

People will be begging for the Antichrist when the time comes. ORDER OUT OF CHAOS. When the rapture occurs the world will go to chaos as mankind has already been set up to believe in aliens. The Star Trek transporter was for a reason.........to make you believe when people disappear aliens have done it.

The world will unite to fight a common enemy.........one that is not real.

Defcon 5

Here is a very good site (click on it and then click 70 weeks of Daniel) that explains the seventy weeks of Daniel and the sixty nine weeks that have been fulfilled.

It also explains why your historical interpretation is unscriptural.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

[url][www.truthnet.org...]

[edit on 29-5-2007 by Sun Matrix]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by defcon5
Which is exactly the correct way to handle the 42 months. The 42 months relates to the 1260 days, its does not relate to the 3.5 years, other then Futurists have to make it do that, so it matches with their treaty non-sense.

Well let's see 12 months in a year times 3.5 years equals 42 months equals 1260 days by my calculations. That would be the 3.5 years that your view has round pegged and already used.........and yet here it is in Revelation. Of course I have also shown where the temple is mentioned in Rev 11 with the outer court given to the Gentiles.

Originally posted by defcon5
Yes they do, and much more exactly then the Futurists ones do. Man, are you in denial or what?

No, its Christ. I don’t get your point, none of this goes against anything I have said so far.

No, no denial. You don't get my point? It's pretty simple. Jesus said when you see these things BEGIN to come to pass look up, your redemption draweth nigh. He didn't say AFTER these things come to pass, look up. Like I said, your views just don't stand up to scripture.

And as far as Matthew 24 goes.......again your views don't stand up to scripture. Yes there was two questions asked but the answer came in a chronological order. THEN.......THEN.........THEN.........THEN.

Originally posted by defcon5
I did enjoy the bit were you totally passed over how you did not know that Futurism comes from the RCC, what no comment on that one?

Quite the contrary. I knew where the view really came from and it was Paul. Since in your incorrect historical view, the Romans have already defiled the temple.........could you please name the Antichrist or son of perdition as he is the one who defiles the temple.

2 Thessalonians 21 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Further........you will find that the position of the Catholic Church includes no rapture..........as I'm sure you know.

Further.......the Catholic Church is not the Antichrist as you have shown. They are Mystery Babylon of Revelation 17.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Sun Matrix]

>Jesus said when you see these things BEGIN to come to pass look up, your redemption draweth nigh. He didn't say AFTER these things come to pass, look up.

This is from Mathew 24 and the Parable of the Fig Tree, etc. Widely mis-interpreted. When Jesus said YOU, he did not mean "Sun Matrix, defcon5, myself or anyone else in the 21st century. He was speaking to his disciples. He wanted his disciples to watch for these things that will come to pass in their lifetimes in their generation. What was Jesus speaking about? The coming of the day of Pentecost and the establishment of the church after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the end of ancient jewish society in 70AD at the hands of the Romans and "The Beast", Nero Caesar, whose number translated in Hebrew is 666, also happens to be 616 in greek. This was foretold foretold in the Book of Revelation and has already come to pass.

Originally posted by SatansQue

Originally posted by iandavis
If your talking about "The Beast" as described in the Book of Revelation, he has come and gone almost two thousand years ago. His name was Nero Caesar and was one of the last emperors of the Old Roman Empire.

People, these verses are easy to interpret and clearly are not describing the Anti-Christ, the "End of the World-Rapture Fanatics" would like you to believe. John is not speaking to you and I here in the 21st century.
[edit on 24-5-2007 by iandavis]

[edit on 24-5-2007 by iandavis]

Clearly this post is the reason why jesus never wanted his desciples to write down that which he spoke to them openly about. Jesus wasn't in the publishing business. Jesus wasn't about Bible study. But you can't see past your own contradiction here, in naming Nero as an antichrist, and saying John wasn't speaking to you in the 21st century, with a cheering section to-boot:

Originally posted by junglelord
great post good bible study.
thanks for that.
the few the proud the ones who have studied

The key word boys is SPIRIT. Now if you think that the spirit of anti-christ ideology does not cross over the ages, just as this earth has remainded since the time of the Christ, then why are you even bothering to read a book about a man named Jesus, and all the others, who lived 2,000 years ago?

Spirit has a funny way of not dying, like the flesh. Or maybe you believe that Jesus wasn't talking to us in the 21st century either?

Now, I'm not one of them "End of Worlders' in fact, all you have to do is read my posts and you'll see that I don't even accept the Bible as being from God, or the "Word of God". It's a reference book, with lots of distortions and lies, compiled by men, that's it.

In fact, I am more inclined to believe that anyone who believes the Bible is the "Word of God', IS antiChrist, since Jesus clearly had no intentions of starting a religion, especially one in which our Father God is slandered, and made to believe that He is out of His friggen' mind.

Jesus was about changing the way we lived, and loved each other through God.

But if you're trying to say that the spirit of Antichrist is not alive and kicking here in the 21st century, then once again you demonstrate the reason why I believe: that a bible in the hands of a man, is like a car in the hands of a monkey at rush hour - in new York.

[edit on 25-5-2007 by SatansQue]

Well first of all, if you state that the Bible is not at all inspired by God and it is flawed with the lies and contradictions of it's authors, then anytime someone disagrees with you about scripture, you can simply play the "Book of Lies and Contradictions by Man's Fallability" card. Not fair. But that is what you believe and there are many confusing parts of the Bible that appear to be contradictory. I understand your point of view.

As far as Jesus in Mathew 24, he is clearly speaking to his disciples. Why would he speak to him about things to come 2000 years in the future? He wouldn't.


In addition, I never said that the spirit of the anti-christ is not alive today. It has been alive and living in many people since Jesus died on the cross.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by SeekerOfAUTMN
To those who understand religion, namely Christianity, better than I do, I pose a question:
How does one identify the Antichrist?
Please educate me on this subject, and offer your opinions too.

As much as I don’t agree with some of what SatansQue is saying this is actually the correct answer:

Originally posted by SatansQue
Here's what you do. Go stand in front of a mirror. If the Love of God - the Christ, is not in your heart, then the Antichrist is YOU.
Am I lying?

The word Anti-Christ is only mentioned 4 places in the bible and none of them make reference to a single, one time, all powerful, opponent of Christ, but rather to anyone who denies Christ:

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Now what about this:

Originally posted by iandavis
If your talking about "The Beast" as described in the Book of Revelation, he has come and gone almost two thousand years ago. His name was Nero Caesar and was one of the last emperors of the Old Roman Empire.

This is also somewhat correct, but also somewhat incorrect. In order to properly learn biblical prophecy you must first understand what the different styles of interpretation are. The study of prophecy is called Eschatology, and in Christian Eschatology there are three main prophetic schools of teaching, there are at least two minor schools as well, and even in the main schools there are some sub-groupings. So far, from what you have said, I am going to guess that the only school you have been exposed to is Futurism, which is not surprising as it’s currently the most prevalent school. However, if your not a Catholic, it may not be the school which the founder of your church intended for you to follow, rather Historicism is.

There are several reasons why Futurism is now the most popular style of interpretation, one of which is that it does not single out any one group as actually being mentioned in prophecy, explicitly. Another reason why Futurism is prevalent is because it supports current day Israel and the Zionists, which is high on the agenda of many of the Jewish controlled Media Outlets. This is why we only see books like “Left Behind”, “The Late Great Planet Earth”, and movies such as “The Omega Code”, “The End of Days”, get any media attention. Also many of your pastors never received proper training in Eschatology, as until it became a hot topic in 1999, it was considered unpopular to discuss with parishioners. So, all these untrained pastors learned from the books being promoted, most of which were Futurist. To make matters even worse some of your independent Churches provide no formal Seminary Schooling to their pastors, and promote form within the ranks.

So, back to what I was mentioning above, that quote from iandavis is from the school of Preteristism, which is the proper interpretation for those who are part of the Catholic Church.
Only Futurism teaches in an end Times Antichrist Figure…

In a quick, nutshell this is what each school teaches:

Futurism: Teaches that there is going to be a seven year tribulation period at some future point, during which an Antichrist will come to power. During this seven year period, this Antichrist will make peace in the Middle East, rebuild the Temple on Mount Zion, break the peace treaty, declare himself god, start a war, have everyone “Marked” with a Chip or brand, call down fire from heaven, and so on. He is obviously a busy guy for that seven years. From here the school splits into the groups which believe that there is going to be a Rapture (which is totally unscriptural), and the argument is whether this happens before, during, or after the tribulation period. There is another sub-group of Futurists who are Millennialists, and believe there is a thousand year reign of Christ after the tribulation. Believe it or not, Futurism is the school I used to believe when I first started learning Eschatology, as it was the only one I had been exposed to.

Preteristism: Teaches that the events of Revelations have been fulfilled in Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, and the “Little Horn” of Daniel in Emperor Diocletian. This is what iandavis is talking about above. The Catholic Church currently accepts this as the teaching it supports. The teachings of are similar to that of Historicism in many ways, but there is a great difference in them. The difference is that Rome is clearly defined in the Bible as one of the entities mentioned in both Revelations and Daniel, and the Roman Catholic Church had to come up with some way to limit that to only one aspect of Rome by making it about specific Emperors. Preterism is very easy to disprove as the history does not flow 100% correctly with its interpretations of the prophecies.

Historicism: I could go on about this one all day long, but I will try and keep it short. Once I learned this school, it totally changed my outlook on everything, and tied up all of history with a neat little bow on the top. It is the least politically correct school of teaching, but it is the most accurate. You will also find out that we are very near the end, and the end can truly come five seconds after I hit the “Post Button” here. There are no signs to follow, there is no Antichrist, no rebuilt temple mount, the beasts already exist, the “Little Horn” already exists, the only thing left to happen is “the Mark”, natural disasters (which have already started), and possibly the Battle of Megiddo (if that is not currently going on). Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and pretty much the rest of the protestant reformers all accept this school of prophecy as the correct school, even if their Churches are now lax about teaching it. It is accepted by all protestant faiths who follow the Westminster Confession of Faith; which even includes the Baptists, who are among the worst group for accidentally teaching Futurism, as they are mostly Independent Churches with no Seminary Training.

Historicism teaches that the “Beasts” in Daniel are all countries, or “World Superpowers”, and that Revelations follows this same pattern. The final one, which Futurists refer to as the “false prophet”, is the final world superpower, and not an Antichrist persona. The order of these are: Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, Rome, and the final world superpower (possibly the US, or a conglomeration of allied countries). The “Little Horn” refers to the station of the Pontifex Maximus, which is a position originally held by the old Roman Emperors, including….. Nero.

Today we call the station of the Pontifex Maximus the Holy Pontiff, and station of the Pontifex fits the exact description of the book of Daniel for the “Little Horn”. Rome is the beast which was wounded, it is the “Beast which was, then was not, yet is”.
I can show you exactly how this relates back to each individual biblical verse if you’re interested, but that will take more time then I have at the moment.

Here are some links to another thread where I explain this some more if you want to read it:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I believe this relates very precisely to “The Mark”:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 29-5-2007 by iandavis]

BTW, Lutherans and Episcopalians also believe in Preterism.

Originally posted by iandavis


This is from Mathew 24 and the Parable of the Fig Tree, etc. Widely mis-interpreted. When Jesus said YOU, he did not mean "Sun Matrix, defcon5, myself or anyone else in the 21st century. He was speaking to his disciples. He wanted his disciples to watch for these things that will come to pass in their lifetimes in their generation. What was Jesus speaking about? The coming of the day of Pentecost and the establishment of the church after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the end of ancient jewish society in 70AD at the hands of the Romans and "The Beast", Nero Caesar, whose number translated in Hebrew is 666, also happens to be 616 in greek. This was foretold foretold in the Book of Revelation and has already come to pass.

"When you see these things begin to come to pass" Comes from Luke 21. And the things he was talking about were the signs of the sun, moon and stars and the sea and the waves roaring and mens hearts failing for fear of what is coming on the earth. Then the Messiah will return. When you see these things begin to happen, look up your redemption draweth nigh.

Those things in Revelation have not happened. They will not happen until the Antichrist has been revealed. Nero is not the Antichrist. He did not go in the Jewish temple and decare himself God.

The seals have not been opened and the white horse of Revelation 6 has not been released.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by iandavis


This is from Mathew 24 and the Parable of the Fig Tree, etc. Widely mis-interpreted. When Jesus said YOU, he did not mean "Sun Matrix, defcon5, myself or anyone else in the 21st century. He was speaking to his disciples. He wanted his disciples to watch for these things that will come to pass in their lifetimes in their generation. What was Jesus speaking about? The coming of the day of Pentecost and the establishment of the church after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the end of ancient jewish society in 70AD at the hands of the Romans and "The Beast", Nero Caesar, whose number translated in Hebrew is 666, also happens to be 616 in greek. This was foretold foretold in the Book of Revelation and has already come to pass.

"When you see these things begin to come to pass" Comes from Luke 21. And the things he was talking about were the signs of the sun, moon and stars and the sea and the waves roaring and mens hearts failing for fear of what is coming on the earth. Then the Messiah will return. When you see these things begin to happen, look up your redemption draweth nigh.

Those things in Revelation have not happened. They will not happen until the Antichrist has been revealed. Nero is not the Antichrist. He did not go in the Jewish temple and decare himself God.

The seals have not been opened and the white horse of Revelation 6 has not been released.

Jesus is essentially repeating in Luke 21 what he said in Mathew 24. But the key is WHO HE IS SPEAKING TO! He is speaking to his disciples. He is giving THEM warning about things to occur in THEIR lifetimes. This is clear. Jesus would not use language like this to communicate to a generation 2000 years in the future.

Luke: 21: 7-21

7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8And he said, Take heed that YE be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go YE not therefore after them.

9But when YE shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

YE and YOU....that is the key. Jesus is responding to a question from is disciples.

And Nero did declare himself a god and he did many times. He did destroyed the temple. He didn't physically show up at the temple and single handedly destroy it himself, he had his army do it. This is historical fact.

Originally posted by iandavis
BTW, Lutherans and Episcopalians also believe in Preterism.

Hm, nope Lutherans do not believe in Preterism, Luther was the first person to make the association between the Pope and the "Son of Perdition", the "Little Horn", and such. I suggest you go read what I wrote above more closely as it is correct in reference to the schools, where they come from, and who generally follows each one. I have no idea what school of prophecy Episcopalians follow to be honest, I believe that Anglicans follow Preterism as they did not very that greatly in their differences with the RCC.

Also, I am not going to answer any of these other posts until you clean up reposting my entire posts in them.


[edit on 5/30/2007 by defcon5]

I believe the anti christ according to my understanding of it anyway, will be a well LOVED world leader, political and religious,

Most will be fooled into believing he is the real deal, because he will work many miracles like jesus did.

He will recover from a mortal wound to his head.

There is also the spirit of the anti christ, which misleads people , a strong delusion, because they loved not the truth, they will " choose" to believe a lie.

You know one must wonder with all the clues we have been given to recognize the anti christ, how is it possible then to be fooled?

There will be many false teachers and prophets

1 John 2:22
22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

However the antichrist teachings may not be sound doctrine,

YE HAVE HEARD THAT ANTI-CHRIST SHOULD COME..

1 John 2:18......EVEN NOW ARE THERE MANY ANTI-CHRISTS.

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

It would be really simple to spot the antichrist, I think, in order to delude people, god would have to be more subtle.

Then one wonders, why?

[edit on 30-5-2007 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Those things in Revelation have not happened. They will not happen until the Antichrist has been revealed.
The seals have not been opened and the white horse of Revelation 6 has not been released.

The following is why Revelation is not and was not written for us in the 21st Century.........

1) Q: Who was it written to? A: The seven churches in Asia that no longer exist today.

Rev 1:10-11 "I (John the Apostle) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

2) Q: When was the events in Revelation to take place? A: Shortly after the book was written.

Rev 1:1"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw."

Rev 1:3"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for THE TIME IS NEAR."

"And he (the angel) said to me (John) , 'DO NOT SEAL UP the words of the prophecy of this book, for THE TIME IS NEAR .'" Rev 22:10

Considering that most “last days” or futurist theologions (mostly American evangelicals) believe biblical history to date, can only be traced back about 6,000 years to the time of Adam and Eve, the nearly 2000 years since Revelation was written takes up almost a third of human recorded history. That’s along time by any standard. When John writes the time is near, that obviously does not mean 2000 years later.

We also have this problem:

Daniel 8:26 "And the vision of the evenings and mornings which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future."

Daniel 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time"

• Daniel was a prophet who wrote about 600 BC
• The angel told Daniel to "seal up" the prophecy about the coming of the Messiah. The "end of time" figuratively meaning the end of the age of ancient jewish society.
• Yet Daniel's prophecies were fulfilled with the earthly ministry of Jesus only 600 years later.

If Daniel was told seal up the prophecy for only a 600 year period, you would absolutely think that John would be told to seal the book for what is to be a period of almost two thousand years. Wouldn’t you? Two thousand years is a third of human history. I know people say that a thousand years is like a blink of an eye to God, but I do not believe man would be lead to believe that 2000 years is a short period of time.

To me this is a clear slam dunk that Revelation is not about the 21st century.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
However the antichrist teachings may not be sound doctrine,

You are correct, the teaching that there will be a single person who will be “THE Antichrist” is not sound doctrine. Who would better know then Paul, who coined the phrase “Antichrist” to begin with. His verses which relate to the Antichrist all state that it is ANYONE who denies Christ, as the quotes you wrote above show.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
It would be really simple to spot the antichrist, I think, in order to delude people, god would have to be more subtle.

Exactly that reason that I stated above that the one person, who historicists consider to be the “little horn” and the “son of perdition”, is the exact same person who made up the school of prophecy which teaches there will be a single antichrist. Considering that even most non-Christians are familiar with this school of prophecy, who would possibly be fooled by it. If everyone knows it, then it cannot be the right way, as the bible says it will be a “great deception” which will come over folks so they are deceived.


[edit on 5/30/2007 by defcon5]

To me this is a clear slam dunk that Revelation is not about the 21st century.

Yes I have heard that, then this could be a way of deceiving mankind,

I don't know, honestly I don't,

But if we take into consideration all Biblical prophecies, and end time revelations and prophecies, what do we have?

The seven vials of wrath for instance, did any of that come to pass during the time the book of Revelations was written?

Or is it happening now?

the seven last plagues


there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast
and every living soul died in the sea,

what is happening with our seas now?

"And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire"

What about global warming?


And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the waters thereof were dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared

This river, dispute,
american.edu...

The Trumpets,
First Trumpet: Hail of fire - tail of comet strikes earth. 1/3 plants die in the resulting fires.

Second Trumpet: Fiery mountain hurled into sea (1st comet fragment) - 1/3 sea life dies.
Third Trumpet: Satan falls to earth as the comet Wormwood - 1/3 rivers are poisoned.
Fourth Trumpet: 1/3 heavens darkened by smoke and fires of the impacting comet.

Did any of this happen during that time period?
When the first one blew his trumpet, there came hail and fire mixed with blood, which was hurled down to the earth. A third of the land was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all green grass.

How many forest have been burned?
library.thinkquest.org...

Global deforestation has accelerated dramatically in recent decades. The tropical forests of South America and Southeast Asia are being cut and burned at an alarming rate for large and small agricultural uses, from huge palm oil plantations to slash and burn subsistence farming. Fires set for these purposes often rage out of control. The so-called "Haze" in Southeast Asia during 1997 was the result of extensive fires burning unchecked through drought-stricken forests. In Indonesia alone, an area at least the size of New Jersey was burned.

The study contains what its authors call "a stark warning" for the entire world. The wetlands, forests, savannahs, estuaries, coastal fisheries and other habitats that recycle air, water and nutrients for all living creatures are being irretrievably damaged.

www.guardian.co.uk...

A third of the sea turned to blood,

a third of the creatures living in the sea died, and a third of the ships were wrecked.

NEWS.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK

Warmer seas will wipe out plankton, source of ocean life

Fishery stocks are being depleted worldwide, waterfowl decreasing in numbers, even the worlds frogs are disappearing at an alarming rate.

When the third angel blew his trumpet, a large star burning like a torch fell from the sky. It fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.
The star was called "Wormwood,"
Toxic Pollution of America's Waters
www.ewg.org...

just a few examples








[edit on 30-5-2007 by Stormdancer777]